I'm not satisfied. Should Essendon be punished for failure to provide Medical Records?

[carnthedons]

I asked on another thread - but perhaps more relevant in this one:

Just wondering, does anyone know if there is anything stopping WADA introducing a law around the absence of
record keeping, and applying it retrospectively?

So you want the club/players punished for something which wasn't against the rules at the time?

 

[Dennis Trumpet]

I like hearing from Essendon supporters and it makes me think.

In this case, your post backs up my point... you said "judges are comfortably satisfied it didn't happen" - this is NOT true.

The judges were unable to say they were comfortably satisfied of ASADA's case for TB4 being injected into Essendon players without key witness testimony. That's all.

I'm 100% willing to do a 180 and become an Essendon promotor on this issue if you can convince me you're innocent with reason and logic. I don't give a shit about tribalism, I care about the facts. I'll even harass the media like Bruce if you convince me you were fair.

Under our legal system there is a presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
We have not been proven guilty
Therefore we are innocent.

That is a fact

 

[BlueWorld]

But Carlton did straight up cheat. Although it is not proven that EFC has done so in this case.

Do you even understand what we are discussing?

 

[BlueWorld]

Under our legal system there is a presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
We have not been proven guilty
Therefore we are innocent.

That is a fact

O.j. Simpson thinks so too.

 

[Satan]

So you want the club/players punished for something which wasn't against the rules at the time?

David hicks says hi

 

[Duckworth]

Do you even understand what we are discussing?

Sure. I'm talking about how Carlton cheated. I have read quite a few of your posts - and feel more stupid for having done so.

Please tell me why you feel like OJ Simpson was guilty. AND why you know more than the evidence presented to the jury? I can answer... you are just lead by the nose and believe whatever article is written in the media.

 

[carnthedons]

David hicks says hi

damnit I thought Godwin's would come through but if it had to be terrorism, so be it

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

Sure. I'm talking about how Carlton cheated. I have read quite a few of your posts - and feel more stupid for having done so.

"Back in '99, a joint league and ATO investigation into Essendon's finances found the club had systematically breached the cap to the tune of $514,500 between 1991 and 1996. The investigation was sparked after the AFL 'became aware' of a document showing Mark Harvey had received nearly $30,000 in incentives outside of his contract in 1997. They are, to date, the only club found to have cheated the cap in a premiership-winning year (1993)."

 

[carnthedons]

"Back in '99, a joint league and ATO investigation into Essendon's finances found the club had systematically breached the cap to the tune of $514,500 between 1991 and 1996. The investigation was sparked after the AFL 'became aware' of a document showing Mark Harvey had received nearly $30,000 in incentives outside of his contract in 1997. They are, to date, the only club found to have cheated the cap in a premiership-winning year (1993)."

Cheat to win, that's the key.

 

[interestedoz1]

So you want the club/players punished for something which wasn't against the rules at the time?

So the argument would be something like: WADA could determine the behaviour was not in the "spirit" of clean sport. and (possibly) act retrospectively.

As I said above, I don't even know if they could do it - it seems they might have some retrospective capability - but could they do this? No idea.

But don't you agree with the opinion that they have a major problem with the apparent "no records" defence?

 

[BlueWorld]

Sure. I'm talking about how Carlton cheated. I have read quite a few of your posts - and feel more stupid for having done so.

Please tell me why you feel like OJ Simpson was guilty. AND why you know more than the evidence presented to the jury? I can answer... you are just lead by the nose and believe whatever article is written in the media.

Please do not respond again to any of my posts.

 

[Duckworth]

"Back in '99, a joint league and ATO investigation into Essendon's finances found the club had systematically breached the cap to the tune of $514,500 between 1991 and 1996. The investigation was sparked after the AFL 'became aware' of a document showing Mark Harvey had received nearly $30,000 in incentives outside of his contract in 1997. They are, to date, the only club found to have cheated the cap in a premiership-winning year (1993)."

very clever... notice I used the words "in this case" to make my response clear.

 

[Satan]

damnit I thought Godwin's would come through but if it had to be terrorism, so be it

Was overturned. Not a terrorist just a very naughty boy

 

[carnthedons]

So the argument would be something like: WADA could determine the behaviour was not in the "spirit" of clean sport. and (possibly) act retrospectively.

As I said above, I don't even know if they could do it - it seems they might have some retrospective capability - but could they do this? No idea.

But don't you agree with the opinion that they have a major problem with the apparent "no records" defence?

I query the validity of the no records concept. I believe there to be records, it's just the veracity of these that has been queried.

My issue is with the idea that you can outlaw something which has already happened and punish someone for something that wasn't against the rules when it was done.

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

very clever... notice I used the words "in this case" to make my response clear.

Essendon:
Salary cap cheats
Guilty of poor governance
Self-admitted supplement use (withdrawn)
Not guilty of systematic doping (insufficient evidence)

Large group of neutral supporters (including me) never wanted to see the players banned for something the club administration did. Your administration is rotten and needs to go. Can't you see that Essendon is now a tainted brand? God help them in the unlikely event they get near a grand final in the next ten years.

 

[Duckworth]

Please do not respond again to any of my posts.

So I guess this means no answer? Because you have mentioned OJ on a number of occasions. I thought you must know more than what was simply presented in the media.

 

[boncer34]

"Back in '99, a joint league and ATO investigation into Essendon's finances found the club had systematically breached the cap to the tune of $514,500 between 1991 and 1996. The investigation was sparked after the AFL 'became aware' of a document showing Mark Harvey had received nearly $30,000 in incentives outside of his contract in 1997. They are, to date, the only club found to have cheated the cap in a premiership-winning year (1993)."

Lol.

You know the Blues cheated in 93 yeah?

 

[Tiger2709]

Essendon the club have been punished for their shortcomings of 2012 - poor governance. What you are seeing from the supporters as 'we won' is as much relief that there is an end to this as anything else.

I'm not sure why you should feel entitled to have the opinion that EFC have given banned drugs to players - when the result of a 2.5 year investigation and 2 judges and a barrister can unanimously say that they are comfortably satisfied that it didn't happen.

They didn't say that but nice twist on the real result, which was they weren't comfortably satisfied that the players were given the banned supplements, not that they were comfortably satisfied they weren't given them, quite a difference.

The tribunal also said they believed there was intent to use TB4 at the club but again it wasn't proven to the level required that it reached the players, this in many sports would be enough for further punishment against the club.

They also said it wasn't alpha1 used and I'm pretty sure everyone gave up on it being thymomodulin as there would be no benefit using that, so we have a mystery Thymosin type product that is not Alpha 1 or thymomodulin being used, so the likelihood is that it was TB4, but again it couldn't be satisfactorily proven that the players were injected, its no wonder supporters of other clubs are questioning the decision.

For now I'm happy to just get on with the season and as far as the players go let them play I doubt they knew what was being used, but I feel there may be more to come from this in regards the club itself.

 

[Duckworth]

Essendon:
Salary cap cheats
Guilty of poor governance
Self-admitted supplement use (withdrawn)
Not guilty of systematic doping (insufficient evidence)

Large group of neutral supporters (including me) never wanted to see the players banned for something the club administration did. Your administration is rotten and needs to go. Can't you see that Essendon is now a tainted brand? God help them in the unlikely event they get near a grand final in the next ten years.

The Administration is all but gone, and supplement use is not against the rules Poor governance is correct, and there was some Salary cap issues... although Carlton was certainly the leader in that regard.

If we win a flag in the next ten year why do we need Gods help? I'm certainly not worried about anything.

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

Lol.

You know the Blues cheated in 93 yeah?

But, by Essendon logic we are wholly innocent until that is proven. And it's never been proven.

 

[interestedoz1]

IMO the perception of "a good result" (players escaping sanction) via the mechanism of not knowing what they
were injected with is EXTEMELY problematic on many, many levels

 

[Tiger2709]

Lol.

You know the Blues cheated in 93 yeah?

But that doesn't change the fact that long term and deliberate salary cap cheating led to Essendon winning a flag in a year that they were convicted of cheating, as usual the AFL was to weak to take that cup from your club as they should have done.

 

[boncer34]

But, by Essendon logic we are wholly innocent until that is proven. And it's never been proven.

Is that why you were fined $50k for it?

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

Is that why you were fined $50k for it?

That was just a governance issue

 

[boncer34]

But that doesn't change the fact that long term and deliberate salary cap cheating led to Essendon winning a flag in a year that they were convicted of cheating, as usual the AFL was to weak to take that cup from your club as they should have

Good thing you blokes didn't win one in 96,98,00,01 or 07 isn't it? Or else you'd be demanding your own club hand back a flag.

Yeah?