I'm not satisfied. Should Essendon be punished for failure to provide Medical Records?

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Essendon probably cheated by taking drugs. We all know it, let's just say it.

However all the records of their program went "missing" and they've been punished for poor governance already. There's not much else that can be done.
 
boncer34 said:
Nope.

Its certainly amusing you don't know your own clubs history though.
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Why so mad? Essendon still the first club to receive a massive penalty for salary cap cheating, the first club to lose more than one draft pick for salary cap cheating, and the first club to cheat in a premiership year.
 

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Tiger2709 said:
They didn't say that but nice twist on the real result, which was they weren't comfortably satisfied that the players were given the banned supplements, not that they were comfortably satisfied they weren't given them, quite a difference.

The tribunal also said they believed there was intent to use TB4 at the club but again it wasn't proven to the level required that it reached the players, this in many sports would be enough for further punishment against the club.

They also said it wasn't alpha1 used and I'm pretty sure everyone gave up on it being thymomodulin as there would be no benefit using that, so we have a mystery Thymosin type product that is not Alpha 1 or thymomodulin being used, so the likelihood is that it was TB4, but again it couldn't be satisfactorily proven that the players were injected, its no wonder supporters of other clubs are questioning the decision.

For now I'm happy to just get on with the season and as far as the players go let them play I doubt they knew what was being used, but I feel there may be more to come from this in regards the club itself.
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The players are innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof that was already set, was failed to be met by ASADA. As such, the judges gave a not-guilty verdict. Therefore I am able to say that players were not given banned substances.
 
De Iulio2Wiggins said:
Why so mad? Essendon still the first club to receive a massive penalty for salary cap cheating, the first club to lose more than one draft pick for salary cap cheating, and the first club to cheat in a premiership year.
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Ahh why so mad.

The calling card of a desperate poster who made an error . :D
 
So while the records may not exist, does the "knowledge" of what the players were given exist?

If yes, does the AFL, EFC, or ASADA have an obligation to the players to find out that information?
 
Engimal said:
Essendon probably cheated by taking drugs. We all know it, let's just say it.

However all the records of their program went "missing" and they've been punished for poor governance already. There's not much else that can be done.
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Poor governance. What a quaint term for what is at the very best utter incompetence.
 
sherb said:
Poor governance. What a quaint term for what is at the very best utter incompetence.
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Agreed, but you can't punish them twice.
 
Yes they got away with it but the AFL aren't going to do anything. They care more about money than integrity. They were complicit in the coverup from the beginning and ASADA's real mistake was trusting the AFL to do the right thing. They should have known better that they would tip off their own boys. Until such time as ASADA/WADA announce an appeal there is nothing to see here. Move along.
 
Engimal said:
Agreed, but you can't punish them twice.
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I agree, and I am not arguing that they should.

I just love the understatement that is the term "poor governance".

:)
 
It keeps pissing down. I can't leave this place of beverage until it clears. Keep going with the blues v bombers stuff. Gold
 
Tiger2709 said:
But that doesn't change the fact that long term and deliberate salary cap cheating led to Essendon winning a flag in a year that they were convicted of cheating, as usual the AFL was to weak to take that cup from your club as they should have done.
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Absolute rubbish. The sheer luck of a bunch of 18 years olds coming good unexpectedly won Essendon a flag.

I'm also pretty sure Essendon didn't go over the cap in 93 either. 92 we did with aging stars not getting much of a game but taking good coin and 94 with pay rises to all the young premiership players.

That said all clubs were over the cap in those days. Essendon, Melbourne and Carlton all got a clip for refusing to open their books.
 

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boncer34 said:
Good thing you blokes didn't win one in 96,98,00,01 or 07 isn't it? Or else you'd be demanding your own club hand back a flag.

Yeah?
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lol, look up the reference to what happened in those years, yours was systematic cheating, most other people got small fines for minor errors which occur in the cap yearly for all teams, as it is quite complex, but nice try:$

But yes if we cheat and win a flag then it should not count we were fined and punished for all of our breaches you were fined but allowed to keep the flag you won, that is why it is always going to be a * flag.

Essendon were fined a record $638,250 ($250,000 in back tax and penalties, $112,000 for draft tampering and $276,250 for breaching the salary cap regulations), forfeited their first, second and third round picks in the National Draft and were excluded from the 1997 rookie and pre-season drafts after a joint Australian Tax Office and AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totalling $514,500 between 1991 and 1996.

The worst case in Australian sport in recent time was the Melbourne Storm in the NRL. They were found to have cheated the salary cap for a total of five years and were stripped of the 2007 and 2009 premierships and 2006, 2007 and 2009 minor premierships, and were sentenced to finish the 2010 NRL season (of which 75% was still to be played) in last place. In addition to being fined $1.689 million.

So the NRL removed flags as the Storm cheated for 5 years you got to keep yours after cheating for 5 years as well.
 
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fishardansin said:
Absolute rubbish. The sheer luck of a bunch of 18 years olds coming good unexpectedly won Essendon a flag.

I'm also pretty sure Essendon didn't go over the cap in 93 either. 92 we did with aging stars not getting much of a game but taking good coin and 94 with pay rises to all the young premiership players.

That said all clubs were over the cap in those days. Essendon, Melbourne and Carlton all got a clip for refusing to open their books.
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Yeah sure and yes you were over in '93.

How do you think you got so lucky to be able to fit all those young stars into your team, it wasn't just salary cap cheating but draft tampering, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to build the team you had.

Essendon were fined a record $638,250 ($250,000 in back tax and penalties, $112,000 for draft tampering and $276,250 for breaching the salary cap regulations), forfeited their first, second and third round picks in the National Draft and were excluded from the 1997 rookie and pre-season drafts after a joint Australian Tax Office and AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totalling $514,500 between 1991 and 1996.
 
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Duckworth said:
The players are innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof that was already set, was failed to be met by ASADA. As such, the judges gave a not-guilty verdict. Therefore I am able to say that players were not given banned substances.
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You can say what you like its a free country whether anyone believes you is another matter, but my comments are about the club anyway, I have no real problem with the players getting off but the reality is something not quite kosher went on at Essendon and there are still people involved in that at the club, as Jobe said the players have every right to be angry, well so do the rest of us, it's about time Essendon tried to win something without an unfair advantage.
 
Tiger2709 said:
lol, look up the reference to what happened in those years, yours was systematic cheating, most other people got small fines for minor errors which occur in the cap yearly for all teams, as it is quite complex, but nice try:$

But yes if we cheat and win a flag then it should not count we were fined and punished for all of our breaches you were fined but allowed to keep the flag you won, that is why it is always going to be a * flag.

Essendon were fined a record $638,250 ($250,000 in back tax and penalties, $112,000 for draft tampering and $276,250 for breaching the salary cap regulations), forfeited their first, second and third round picks in the National Draft and were excluded from the 1997 rookie and pre-season drafts after a joint Australian Tax Office and AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totalling $514,500 between 1991 and 1996.

The worst case in Australian sport in recent time was the Melbourne Storm in the NRL. They were found to have cheated the salary cap for a total of five years and were stripped of the 2007 and 2009 premierships and 2006, 2007 and 2009 minor premierships, and were sentenced to finish the 2010 NRL season (of which 75% was still to be played) in last place. In addition to being fined $1.689 million.

So the NRL removed flags as the Storm cheated for 5 years you got to keep yours after cheating for 5 years as well.
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I know what happened and who was found guilty of breaking the rules. :)

Thanks for copying and pasting a slab from what I presume is Wikipedia though.
 
Tiger2709 said:
Yeah sure and yes you were over in '93.

How do you think you got so lucky to be able to fit all those young stars into your team, it wasn't just salary cap cheating but draft tampering, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to build the team you had.

Essendon were fined a record $638,250 ($250,000 in back tax and penalties, $112,000 for draft tampering and $276,250 for breaching the salary cap regulations), forfeited their first, second and third round picks in the National Draft and were excluded from the 1997 rookie and pre-season drafts after a joint Australian Tax Office and AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totalling $514,500 between 1991 and 1996.
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hey mete whet heppened to rechmend en 1993 jest curious
 
boncer34 said:
I know what happened and who was found guilty of breaking the rules. :)

Thanks for copying and pasting a slab from what I presume is Wikipedia though.
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Well it was Fox news I think, but where else would it come from bar the internet?

I'm not pretending to be Bruce Francis or some other "famous" author, it is a reference to point out the difference between your claims and reality.

Systematic cheating and draft tampering at a level that required tax department involvement surely deserves the removal of any flags won in that period, well it does at the NRL anyway, again you have benefited by the comfy cushion punishments of the AFL, at least Carlton and Adelaide were heavily punished in fact it has set Carlton back to this day, yet the Bombers get to keep their undeserved flag.
 
Tiger2709 said:
Well it was Fox news I think, but where else would it come from bar the internet?

I'm not pretending to be Bruce Francis or some other "famous" author, it is a reference to point out the difference between your claims and reality.
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Huh? My claims?

I claimed you broke the Salary Cap rules in those years.

Was I wrong?
 
Tiger2709 said:
We didn't get to win a flag by rorting and tampering with the cap I can assure you of that, sorry to ask but have you had a stroke your typing is very slurred?
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Answer the question mate come on. Or hang on, do you not like it when people dig up the past?
 

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I'm not satisfied. Should Essendon be punished for failure to provide Medical Records?

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