Strategy Incoming High Performance Manager

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BigCharlie said:
Slightly different again. Long jump is a short burst activity that requires explosive power, but yes, it's an interesting difference in methods.

Despite the science, all sports science/allied health professionals are going to have areas that they place more importance on due to a combination of personal history/injury. "Clinical experience" is one part of the three part Evidence-based mantra that gets trotted out ad nauseum, but it's been hijacked to exclude clinical experience as a valid method of operation in favour of best-available research evidence, which is always going to be flawed.

The appointment of the Head of High Performance will arguably be more important this year than any other. Ideally, they would work to individualised programs to lessen their weaknesses, whether that be endurance, burst speed, strength, power, flexibility or whatever combination thereof. If that means some players are behind in one or two areas whilst they concentrate on others, so be it, it needs to be a longer term view.



Some players are just going to have a certain frame no matter what. Scharenberg and Aish are classic ectomorphs that will never look like Brent Harvey no matter how long they spend in the gym, but DeGoey is the classic natural athlete who should be able to have the perfect combination of size, power, speed and endurance, but has only a little of all.

Maybe that's because training structures, skills and game plan is taking up gym and fitness time. Maybe it's because the wrong exercises are being chosen, as the video footage of the pre-season camps and other material shows.
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Can’t agree with your assessment of Scharenberg’s frame there. He was one of the better built kids in his draft year and he reportedly shed weight on purpose to aid in his acl recovery, but for some reason he hasn’t been able to bulk back up. I can’t believe that it has anything to do with his natural physique rather than the training program he’s been given.
 

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I think it was at the end of the 2013 footy year when there were stories everywhere about Eddie's fury with the entire CFC staff. All were put on notice a few days before the Members Meeting at the MCC. I was in the front row of that meeting and had questions to ask; never got to ask them unfortunately.

I remember Bill Davoren's speech like it was yesterday. He addressed the 'perception' that there had been a sharp increase in injuries. He had graphs and charts indicating, that although our soft tissue injuries were up, our overall injuries were curving down. This seemed to placate the membership. Davoren went on to say that his programme was top loaded and that it was entirely expected that players would struggle in the first year. Thereafter, the players would adapt and the benefits would flow.

I guess it's easy to be smart after the event and all, but four seasons along, is it fair enough to question Davoren's tenure? It looks as if Eddie wanted immediate change and yet, it took four years to happen. This is the part I find puzzling. Bill's method's were being questioned at the end of 2013, but it took until 2017 for him to be moved along.

Perhaps he did improve the situation, but the Club felt it would be the correct time to change things up? I don't think we'd be moving him on if we felt he's done a great job would we? I guess I have a totally unscientific reason for wanting him gone. He came across, rightly or wrongly, as an arseh*le. He didn't appear to be a natural communicator. I watched from the sidelines, so I could be wrong here, but there appeared to be an intensity, a hardness and a lack of joy about his overall approach.

Anyway, I think the problem with our systems is more to do with development. Back in 2010, our young brigade of Beams, Macaffer, Blair and co. spent half a season learning the ropes, moved into the team and were ready to go. The rest is history. I can't say the same of our 2015/2016 recruits. Nick Maxwell's appointment and hopefully with more to come, will bolster this area of fast tracking our young blokes.
 
BigCharlie said:
Slightly different again. Long jump is a short burst activity that requires explosive power, but yes, it's an interesting difference in methods.

Despite the science, all sports science/allied health professionals are going to have areas that they place more importance on due to a combination of personal history/injury. "Clinical experience" is one part of the three part Evidence-based mantra that gets trotted out ad nauseum, but it's been hijacked to exclude clinical experience as a valid method of operation in favour of best-available research evidence, which is always going to be flawed.

The appointment of the Head of High Performance will arguably be more important this year than any other. Ideally, they would work to individualised programs to lessen their weaknesses, whether that be endurance, burst speed, strength, power, flexibility or whatever combination thereof. If that means some players are behind in one or two areas whilst they concentrate on others, so be it, it needs to be a longer term view.

Some players are just going to have a certain frame no matter what. Scharenberg and Aish are classic ectomorphs that will never look like Brent Harvey no matter how long they spend in the gym, but DeGoey is the classic natural athlete who should be able to have the perfect combination of size, power, speed and endurance, but has only a little of all.

Maybe that's because training structures, skills and game plan is taking up gym and fitness time. Maybe it's because the wrong exercises are being chosen, as the video footage of the pre-season camps and other material shows.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight. It's always interesting to read the perspective of someone with your expertise that doesn't leap to the defence of people due to being within the industry. The old "we don't have access to enough information line" gets trotted out way to casually by people that could actually add value to the discussion.

The only point I'd challenge is Scharenberg's body typing. IMO, he joined the club with a bulkier frame and has slimmed down primarily as a result of committing himself 100% to a program that, whilst beneficial on the comeback trail, now needs to see him add muscle if he's to get the power base in his game to take the next step. The player I link him with most is Buckley who was a classic ectomorph before he made it to the big leagues.

IMO, with a change of emphasis on his program he's one that will realise a change in body shape. The other two that scream ectomorph to me are WHE and Oxley. They look like they're allergic to protein and weights programs.
 
Apex36 said:
Can’t agree with your assessment of Scharenberg’s frame there. He was one of the better built kids in his draft year and he reportedly shed weight on purpose to aid in his acl recovery, but for some reason he hasn’t been able to bulk back up. I can’t believe that it has anything to do with his natural physique rather than the training program he’s been given.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. Few people are purely one physical type, most are a mix. Scharenberg isn't quite the natural stick insect that Aish is, but I still believe he is closer to that than the mesomorphic type. If he had it once, his training program is definitely the culprit.


Mazzarjo said:
I remember Bill Davoren's speech like it was yesterday. He addressed the 'perception' that there had been a sharp increase in injuries. He had graphs and charts indicating, that although our soft tissue injuries were up, our overall injuries were curving down. This seemed to placate the membership. Davoren went on to say that his programme was top loaded and that it was entirely expected that players would struggle in the first year. Thereafter, the players would adapt and the benefits would flow.
Click to expand...

You mean 2014. Those graphs and charts are the perfect example of using selective stats to prove your own argument to an audience without the knowledge to question (no offence). Overall injuries would be the combination of acute impact injury, concussion, fractures and other generally unavoidable conditions.

Soft tissue injuries are nearly always within your own control. Did he point to how many soft tissue injuries happened in the controlled environment of training? In the weights room? Re-occurrence of previous injuries? Injuries related to biomechanics? Injury related to overstretch or forceful contraction?

Top-loaded? The most likely reason someone suffers a soft tissue injury is change. In the normal person, it might be as simple as a change of footwear or walking hills instead of flats. An athlete has a higher threshold - although individual biomechanics play a part - but the principle still holds true.

Buttifant was a meticulous individual - perhaps overly so- who charted training loads with fanatical precision. If Davoren had a different approach, then that change had to be introduced gradually, so that players could adapt, as the other most likely reason someone suffers a soft tissue injury is a previous soft tissue injury.

Regardless, the most successful organisations in injury management and S&C have individuals on the same page. That is why Saunders works at North Melbourne. If true that he has left, and he comes to the CFC, it doesn't necessarily mean that the results he achieved at North will automatically translate.

Will he be on the same page as the coach? The Assistant coaches? The other S&C staff? The physios and doctors? Who has the final say
- Head of High Performance, or the Club doctor, in the advent of disagreement? If he thinks the Physios aren't up to the task, does he have carte blanche to install who he wants?
 
Anzacday said:
Great thread Scodog10 and great discussion with BigCharlie
Click to expand...

Big Charlie is nailing it from my perspective. Their POV is exactly the message I've been attempting to communicate based on information I've been fed for 4 years, but I don't have the knowledge base to re-enforce it.
 
BigCharlie said:
Perhaps. Few people are purely one physical type, most are a mix. Scharenberg isn't quite the natural stick insect that Aish is, but I still believe he is closer to that than the mesomorphic type. If he had it once, his training program is definitely the culprit.




You mean 2014. Those graphs and charts are the perfect example of using selective stats to prove your own argument to an audience without the knowledge to question (no offence). Overall injuries would be the combination of acute impact injury, concussion, fractures and other generally unavoidable conditions.

Soft tissue injuries are nearly always within your own control. Did he point to how many soft tissue injuries happened in the controlled environment of training? In the weights room? Re-occurrence of previous injuries? Injuries related to biomechanics? Injury related to overstretch or forceful contraction?

Top-loaded? The most likely reason someone suffers a soft tissue injury is change. In the normal person, it might be as simple as a change of footwear or walking hills instead of flats. An athlete has a higher threshold - although individual biomechanics play a part - but the principle still holds true.

Buttifant was a meticulous individual - perhaps overly so- who charted training loads with fanatical precision. If Davoren had a different approach, then that change had to be introduced gradually, so that players could adapt, as the other most likely reason someone suffers a soft tissue injury is a previous soft tissue injury.

Regardless, the most successful organisations in injury management and S&C have individuals on the same page. That is why Saunders works at North Melbourne. If true that he has left, and he comes to the CFC, it doesn't necessarily mean that the results he achieved at North will automatically translate.

Will he be on the same page as the coach? The Assistant coaches? The other S&C staff? The physios and doctors? Who has the final say
- Head of High Performance, or the Club doctor, in the advent of disagreement? If he thinks the Physios aren't up to the task, does he have carte blanche to install who he wants?
Click to expand...

Davorens gone so we're going to see that change this off season. I hope that doesn't result in injuries next year because of change.

What do you think we need in a high performance manager? How do we manage the transition? Any names out there you reckon would be good candidates?
 
Quicky said:
What do you think we need in a high performance manager? How do we manage the transition? Any names out there you reckon would be good candidates?
Click to expand...

I think the most important element is getting someone in who isn't going to do a here and now approach, but maps out a 3 year plan that would ideally see strengths maximised and weaknesses minimised at the end of that period so that everyone is as close to possible as being on the same page.

The best High Performance Managers from other sports around the world tend to have a big belief in screening, so that programs can be individualised to minimise injury and maximise performance gains. Not just for specific programs, but how they go about that. If Aish needs strength and size, but hates the gym, there is no point forcing him there, not with the wonderful array of tools available these days. Come up with something different.

Here are a couple of links to some old articles that talk about what I mean.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/secret-behind-phoenix-suns-elite-training-staff/

https://www.si.com/edge/2016/08/18/hamstring-injuries-nfl-training-camps-new-england-patriots

I think we need someone who isn't afraid of screening (a lot are), who values weight training more than the past incumbent - and by weights I mean all of those functional/unorthodox tools - who is guided by but not a slave to science, someone who has worked in a variety of sport settings, preferably worldwide.

I would go completely left field, and see if some of the best names in the USA - Todd Durkin, Charlie Weingroff, Mike Boyle - are available in some capacity. They know their stuff. It might require a very different structure of the S&C department, but that would be no bad thing.
 
BigCharlie said:
I think the most important element is getting someone in who isn't going to do a here and now approach, but maps out a 3 year plan that would ideally see strengths maximised and weaknesses minimised at the end of that period so that everyone is as close to possible as being on the same page.

The best High Performance Managers from other sports around the world tend to have a big belief in screening, so that programs can be individualised to minimise injury and maximise performance gains. Not just for specific programs, but how they go about that. If Aish needs strength and size, but hates the gym, there is no point forcing him there, not with the wonderful array of tools available these days. Come up with something different.

Here are a couple of links to some old articles that talk about what I mean.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/secret-behind-phoenix-suns-elite-training-staff/

https://www.si.com/edge/2016/08/18/hamstring-injuries-nfl-training-camps-new-england-patriots

I think we need someone who isn't afraid of screening (a lot are), who values weight training more than the past incumbent - and by weights I mean all of those functional/unorthodox tools - who is guided by but not a slave to science, someone who has worked in a variety of sport settings, preferably worldwide.

I would go completely left field, and see if some of the best names in the USA - Todd Durkin, Charlie Weingroff, Mike Boyle - are available in some capacity. They know their stuff. It might require a very different structure of the S&C department, but that would be no bad thing.
Click to expand...
I think I want you to be our new high performance manager Charlie :yum:
 

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BigCharlie said:
I think the most important element is getting someone in who isn't going to do a here and now approach, but maps out a 3 year plan that would ideally see strengths maximised and weaknesses minimised at the end of that period so that everyone is as close to possible as being on the same page.

The best High Performance Managers from other sports around the world tend to have a big belief in screening, so that programs can be individualised to minimise injury and maximise performance gains. Not just for specific programs, but how they go about that. If Aish needs strength and size, but hates the gym, there is no point forcing him there, not with the wonderful array of tools available these days. Come up with something different.

Here are a couple of links to some old articles that talk about what I mean.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/secret-behind-phoenix-suns-elite-training-staff/

https://www.si.com/edge/2016/08/18/hamstring-injuries-nfl-training-camps-new-england-patriots

I think we need someone who isn't afraid of screening (a lot are), who values weight training more than the past incumbent - and by weights I mean all of those functional/unorthodox tools - who is guided by but not a slave to science, someone who has worked in a variety of sport settings, preferably worldwide.

I would go completely left field, and see if some of the best names in the USA - Todd Durkin, Charlie Weingroff, Mike Boyle - are available in some capacity. They know their stuff. It might require a very different structure of the S&C department, but that would be no bad thing.
Click to expand...

I certainly think in the AFL we get far too trapped in our little fishpond and don't open our eyes to the world outside. That's true of every position from CEO to high performance and we miss an opportunity to put space between us and our competitors as a result I feel.

I'd love for us to look outside the AFL for our high performance manager, but supported by someone with experience in the AFL. If we can't get the head of those successful programs we can always look at others that have worked in that system and understand it. And may see opportunity for themselves.

I like the suggestions you make and there are others out there too. The All Blacks have a great track record as do AC Milan. It wouldn't surprise me if they had similar preventative and screening programs to those described in the articles you linked.
 
BigCharlie said:
Buttifant was a meticulous individual - perhaps overly so- who charted training loads with fanatical precision. If Davoren had a different approach, then that change had to be introduced gradually, so that players could adapt, as the other most likely reason someone suffers a soft tissue injury is a previous soft tissue injury.
Click to expand...
Going by this I gather our next HP manager will have to gradually transition from Daverons "methods" to his own (taking into account the differing needs of the list). If so could this be the "it's just too f******* hard" in some of the juniors minds and so they can't "get up" after a setback to standard and in your opinion would this be a possibility to where we are now when davs took over Buttifant ?
 
BigCharlie said:
I think the most important element is getting someone in who isn't going to do a here and now approach, but maps out a 3 year plan that would ideally see strengths maximised and weaknesses minimised at the end of that period so that everyone is as close to possible as being on the same page.

The best High Performance Managers from other sports around the world tend to have a big belief in screening, so that programs can be individualised to minimise injury and maximise performance gains. Not just for specific programs, but how they go about that. If Aish needs strength and size, but hates the gym, there is no point forcing him there, not with the wonderful array of tools available these days. Come up with something different.

Here are a couple of links to some old articles that talk about what I mean.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2012/04/05/secret-behind-phoenix-suns-elite-training-staff/

https://www.si.com/edge/2016/08/18/hamstring-injuries-nfl-training-camps-new-england-patriots

I think we need someone who isn't afraid of screening (a lot are), who values weight training more than the past incumbent - and by weights I mean all of those functional/unorthodox tools - who is guided by but not a slave to science, someone who has worked in a variety of sport settings, preferably worldwide.

I would go completely left field, and see if some of the best names in the USA - Todd Durkin, Charlie Weingroff, Mike Boyle - are available in some capacity. They know their stuff. It might require a very different structure of the S&C department, but that would be no bad thing.
Click to expand...
If we can't get someone of that calibre, then in your opinion, how much value would there be in sending one of our staff to work with one of them (or All Blacks as Quicky mentioned) for 4 to 8 weeks to learn off them?

What is your background (if you don't mind me asking)?
 
Apex36 said:
I think I want you to be our new high performance manager Charlie :yum:
Click to expand...
Thanks Mate, but the cozy life of Academia, with a bit of consulting on the side, isn't worth giving up.

Quicky said:
I certainly think in the AFL we get far too trapped in our little fishpond and don't open our eyes to the world outside. That's true of every position from CEO to high performance and we miss an opportunity to put space between us and our competitors as a result I feel.

I'd love for us to look outside the AFL for our high performance manager, but supported by someone with experience in the AFL. If we can't get the head of those successful programs we can always look at others that have worked in that system and understand it. And may see opportunity for themselves.

I like the suggestions you make and there are others out there too. The All Blacks have a great track record as do AC Milan. It wouldn't surprise me if they had similar preventative and screening programs to those described in the articles you linked.
Click to expand...

I agree, but look at what happens when a club goes outside the system for a CEO...

There is a wealth of knowledge out there in the big wide world, if the club are serious about improving, they need to think outside the box and not just recycle.

Lefthanded said:
If we can't get someone of that calibre, then in your opinion, how much value would there be in sending one of our staff to work with one of them (or All Blacks as Quicky mentioned) for 4 to 8 weeks to learn off them?

There are a number of ways you could go about it. instead of sending the players to Falls Creek over the pre-season, send them to San Diego. It would definitely be worth the club hiring someone and seeing if they could get them into a successful program over in the US.
Click to expand...
 
BigCharlie said:
Different focus. The CFC went with someone with a background in athletics, and then blamed the raft of injuries on one of the weights coaches instead of the overload in running training. There is a culture of passing the buck - no pun intended - at the CFC, that, until it is remedied, will continue to produce these kinds of results, i.e players who aren't particularly fit or strong.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the asylum mate and thank you for your perspective. I especially agree with the above 100%.

The last 10 years have brought us many important innovations in the field of high performance. The last bastions holding on to the old-school style of endurance (over)training by building a "base" through volume + adding intensity as you peak remain the triathletes and cyclists. I guess that might explain Bill's beliefs! Front loaded programme... LOL

I agree that we have some ectomorphs on our list but our young boys should be putting on the muscle like anything (due to their heightened endocrine response of properly prescribed movements). I'm hoping a new methodology/protocol will have our puny ones looking more like people that are acquainted with a squat rack (and playing a more powerful game as a result).
 
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Strategy Incoming High Performance Manager

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