Independent doctors at every match

[unitedhawk]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned - I didn't read the whole trail - but I reckon G Lyon's take on On The Couch yesterday was spot on. He effectively said that the way things currently stand in the AFL, the 'duty of care' for hamstrings is more than that for the brain.

The AFL would do well to listen to what he said. Their take on the Cameron incident is beyond comprehension, especially for an organisation that's so concerned about 'optics'.

 

[Teal Leviathan]

Good to hear Caro still pushing this wheelbarrow forward when a lot of AFL-credentialed media seem willing to either uncritically take the AFL at their word on this, or alternatively simply put the issue in the 'too hard' basket.

Can someone explain what is the difference between Allir Allir incident and a $100k fine vs Jeremy Cameron incident? Has the AFL policy changed since then?

From what I gather, Cameron had two knocks throughout the game and both Cameron and Allir had a HIA test. Cameron’s was on field, Allir’s was off field.

Geelong consulted the Arc officials, and they cleared it perhaps Port did not? Was this the rule last year, and has this now just come in?

So because Port didn’t consult the Arc officials they get a $100k fine. But Geelong have been cleared.

So, who are these Arc officials? Are they doctors? And if they are or not - do they have written policy/guidelines that they go by for assessments?

I know it’s the AFL but it’s really not very transparent?

My understanding of the official explanation of the difference is that Aliir displayed objective signs of impairment on-field that required him to undergo the more strenuous SCAT assessment, which did not occur.

In the case of Jeremy Cameron, the AFL is claiming that neither the Geelong doctor nor the AFL review staff in the ARC saw objective signs of impairment from Cameron requiring more than an HIA.

To a certain extent I think the comparisons between Geelong/Cameron and Port Adelaide/Aliir are a distraction from the real issues about how clubs and the AFL should be assessing and managing concerning head impacts like this going forward, but it's certainly a fine line upon which to draw a $100,000 distinction. Particularly so given that, at the time of the Port/Aliir incident, I don't believe the ARC/AFL was involved in the assessment process at all as they were with Cameron. My understanding is that the ARC involvement is a post-Aliir innovation. It's difficult to avoid the thought that a meaningful difference between these two cases is that if Geelong messed up, it likely means the AFL messed up as well, whereas Port's failures could be attributed solely to Port.

 

[Del165198]

AFL only narrowly avoided a big controversy in this game via that non advantage call.

But something else will happen with this and it will influence the outcome of a game.

Rough tackle in a GF, key player off when it matters etc.

How is that any different to the blood rule that already exists? You can lose your best player off the ground for what could be minutes if they have to staple it up.

 

[The 747]

How is that any different to the blood rule that already exists? You can lose your best player off the ground for what could be minutes if they have to staple it up.

I get your point but it is a bit easier than trying to hardway someone.

 

[Del165198]

That’s actually what Scott was saying about the rule, he wasn’t saying that the umpires made the wrong call, he said the way it’s implemented is flawed. In other sports the umpire lets the play unfold after the foul/infringement and THEN decides to either allow the advantage to be remain or if it’s not there, to bring it back for the free kick.

The big problem with our system was highlighted perfectly in the Geelong game where the umpire didn’t allow the advantage which actually ended up being a goal, and brought it back for the free kick, which subsequently ended up as a point, so you’re actually disadvantaging the team you’re trying to give the advantage to because the umpire has to guess what is or isn’t going to be an advantage before it happens.

The advantage rule is a discussion for another thread, but once the whistle is gone (I think twice in this instance), it's ridiculous to think that doesn't have an effect on the players. Quite often you see one team almost stop, then the dude with the ball runs off and the ump calls advantage. At times it's quite poorly umpired.

For it to be paid it should be a clear advantage in the very next play. In this case the ball went to a 50/50 contest. That's not advantage.

PS you would have lost anyway

 

[Del165198]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...y/news-story/aef174848f29ea3a57eeac22e27d143e

Now the AFLPA have asked both the AFL and Geelong WTF.

 

[HairyO]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...y/news-story/aef174848f29ea3a57eeac22e27d143e

Now the AFLPA have asked both the AFL and Geelong WTF.

AFL will throw a few million dollars their way and they will go back under their rock.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Can someone explain what is the difference between Allir Allir incident and a $100k fine vs Jeremy Cameron incident? Has the AFL policy changed since then?

From what I gather, Cameron had two knocks throughout the game and both Cameron and Allir had a HIA test. Cameron’s was on field, Allir’s was off field.

Geelong consulted the Arc officials, and they cleared it perhaps Port did not? Was this the rule last year, and has this now just come in?

So because Port didn’t consult the Arc officials they get a $100k fine. But Geelong have been cleared.

So, who are these Arc officials? Are they doctors? And if they are or not - do they have written policy/guidelines that they go by for assessments?

I know it’s the AFL but it’s really not very transparent?

The AFL have this stupid and missguided protocol that looks to see if the dude is knocked out or not.
So you could cop a baseball bat to head, but unless you get the wobbly legs, lie prone for a minute, or your eyes roll back in your head or whatever - you're good to go.

So Cameron cops what we could all clearly see was brain trauma, but because he didn't show any of those symptoms, and because he could tell the doctor what day it was and who they were playing or whatever - he was ticked off as Ok.

It's just perplexing it's amateurism.


And lo and behold, a day later he has concussion. Surprise surprise. Who'd have thought that you smash your head into the ground with that sort of force and suffer brain trauma?
I mean, aside from everyone who saw it of course.


With Allir, he didn't pass the 'does he look knocked out?' test according to the AFL. Hence the fine.

 

[The 747]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...y/news-story/aef174848f29ea3a57eeac22e27d143e

Now the AFLPA have asked both the AFL and Geelong WTF.

Oh no the AFLPA!

 

[unitedhawk]

Robbo was very strong in his criticism of the handling of the Cameron incident on 360 a couple of minutes ago - good on him!

 

[Sainter1873]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/...y/news-story/aef174848f29ea3a57eeac22e27d143e

Now the AFLPA have asked both the AFL and Geelong WTF.

The AFL Doctors Association have come out in support of independent doctors today, I believe.

At the end of the day, putting aside the questions around protocols (as I think it can be easy to get lost in that mess), the perception here is that a player slams his head into the turf, looks shaken, brushes off the doc’s hurried questions, plays out the match, then is confirmed to have a concussion the next day.

It just is a terrible look, no matter which way it is cut. And in this day and age where there is a class action, several players have already retired this year due to concussion issues, it is baffling that they continue to brush away these legitimate concerns. Common sense would suggest he at the very least be taken off for 10 minutes and properly examined.

 

[Saint12]

Robbo was very strong in his criticism of the handling of the Cameron incident on 360 a couple of minutes ago - good on him!

Made a fool of himself

 

[Purple Suit]

The AFL have this stupid and missguided protocol that looks to see if the dude is knocked out or not.
So you could cop a baseball bat to head, but unless you get the wobbly legs, lie prone for a minute, or your eyes roll back in your head or whatever - you're good to go.

So Cameron cops what we could all clearly see was brain trauma, but because he didn't show any of those symptoms, and because he could tell the doctor what day it was and who they were playing or whatever - he was ticked off as Ok.

It's just perplexing it's amateurism.


And lo and behold, a day later he has concussion. Surprise surprise. Who'd have thought that you smash your head into the ground with that sort of force and suffer brain trauma?
I mean, aside from everyone who saw it of course.


With Allir, he didn't pass the 'does he look knocked out?' test according to the AFL. Hence the fine.

Yep,
Actually being knocked out is hard to cover up.

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

39 seconds to complete the HIA on Cameron. Seems reasonable right? What a joke that this gets signed off from the AFL.

39 seconds is all that they spent to assess him while he couldn’t try and run away from the doctor quick enough.

That’s just pathetic and laughable that the AFL signed off with nothing to see here.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I think this narrative about 'the doctor has the player's best interests at heart' needs to be challenged.

There is no way, absolutely zero chance, that the doctor that assessed Alir could have believed it was in his best interest to go back onto the field. No way known. Impossible.

There's no way a doctor could have Cameron's best interest at heart, and perform a diagnosis in 39 seconds whilst he's chasing around Geelong's F50. No way.

Now I'm not saying they don't care about the player's welfare, surely they must. But the concept of their 'best interests' is clearly skewed towards their interest in playing football.

There is zero way that the doctor does not consider football as their number 1 interest, with head trauma considered a relatively distant second.

I genuinely believe the concept of 'their best interests' refers to the context of their health as a footballer.

That is a big problem.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The independent doctor should can call for them to be taken off and assessed. They can do it with the club doctor as well just for two sets of eyes on it so all your concerns of 1. can be addressed while having someone independent sign off.

The second reason is hilarious with a waste of money being the main concern. Have you see workplace safety these days and what they want business and companies to do with cost not even being on the radar. The AFL has more money than sense and they can easily afford an independent doctor at each of the games. It would cost less than 200K for the whole season and will be a drop in the ocean compared to the payouts coming from not doing enough.

It’s a waste of 200k that can go towards other more important safety matters. We already have a gp and the assumption they leave concussed players on the field to benefit the team is hilarious. Concussed players do not benefit the team or contribute anything meaningful either. What you are essentially saying is the club doctors are not looking after the health and well-being of the players, which is silly to suggest.

It’s very simple, just have a head AFL doctor who reviews and looks into all practices and have the club doctors justify the decision, if they can’t justify it then they get fined or disciplinary action.

If I was working as a physio and I was insulted like this told I had to have an independent physio monitor my work to make sure I am ethical I would tell them where to go and leave, like some of the doctors probably would across the league.

 

[unitedhawk]

39 seconds to complete the HIA on Cameron. Seems reasonable right? What a joke that this gets signed off from the AFL.

39 seconds is all that they spent to assess him while he couldn’t try and run away from the doctor quick enough.

That’s just pathetic and laughable that the AFL signed off with nothing to see here.

The head honchos at the AFL should be made to sit down and watch that, more than once if need be, until they understand what's at stake here.

 

[Del165198]

Oh no the AFLPA!

This isn't really a "gotcha" type thing with Geelong. I don't think anyone's really having pot shots at the club. I think everyone could see the doc wanted him to come off.

If anything, it's the AFL and it's process which has embarassed itself. So I dunno why you feel the need to defend it, unless you think what happened was fine and he should have stayed on?

 

[Del165198]

It’s a waste of 200k that can go towards other more important safety matters. We already have a gp and the assumption they leave concussed players on the field to benefit the team is hilarious. Concussed players do not benefit the team or contribute anything meaningful either. What you are essentially saying is the club doctors are not looking after the health and well-being of the players, which is silly to suggest.

It’s very simple, just have a head AFL doctor who reviews and looks into all practices and have the club doctors justify the decision, if they can’t justify it then they get fined or disciplinary action.

If I was working as a physio and I was insulted like this told I had to have an independent physio monitor my work to make sure I am ethical I would tell them where to go and leave, like some of the doctors probably would across the league.

Except in the AFL doctors own polling of the existing medical staff, they have actually indicated they're in favour of independent doctors.

It's mentioned on the above video by Jon Ralph.

200k is absolutely bugger all to the AFL. Even the rubbish players are on that much.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Except in the AFL doctors own polling of the existing medical staff, they have actually indicated they're in favour of independent doctors.

It's mentioned on the above video by Jon Ralph.

200k is absolutely bugger all to the AFL. Even the rubbish players are on that much.

That is interesting and didn’t see that. Care to share a link?

 

[Handsuper47]

Just got announced today via Mitch Cleary that a Western Bulldogs draftee, Aiden O'Driscoll has been forced into early retirement due to concussion. Was only in the league for less than six months. If that's not a big wake-up call for the AFL I don't know what is.

 

[Del165198]

That is interesting and didn’t see that. Care to share a link?

It's in here

 

[SC_Power]

It's in here

Nothing to see here.

What, just because Cameron was holding his head straight after landing on it from a couple of metres?

He’s fine. He said so. The doctor said so. And most importantly, the AFL said so.

 

[SC_Power]

If I was working as a physio and I was insulted like this told I had to have an independent physio monitor my work to make sure I am ethical I would tell them where to go and leave, like some of the doctors probably would across the league.

You clearly don’t understand what independence means in this instance.
Because it’s not about ethics.

 

[SC_Power]

It's literally the same form. Exactly the same even the questions.

Confirmed that this is the case. Symptoms questions and Maddocks questions.

. He didn't complete it. Geelong are lying and are breaching their duty of care. Clear double standards

And the AFL signs off that this was completed, on ground, in 40 seconds.