International Cup 2014 - with teams listed as confirmed in OP

[The_Wookie]

NZ men will be there, and from the recent girls game, possibly a womens team as well
PNG will also be there in mens and womens

Confirming a womens team will be there, as told to me by AFLNZ CEo Rob Vanstam - the Kahuls will make their debut.

 

[jatz14]

Read a tweet, from a couple of months ago about David Rodan being interested in pulling on the boots for Fiji. Not sure how serious he is, but that would be interesting, and likely to help build interest in the IC14 if he does.

 

[fitzroybowiedog]

Im not sure he'd be eligible under the rules. but I'm not sure.

 

[The_Wookie]

Read a tweet, from a couple of months ago about David Rodan being interested in pulling on the boots for Fiji. Not sure how serious he is, but that would be interesting, and likely to help build interest in the IC14 if he does.

well given his family is basically running fiji football, im sure theyd at least try

 

[Aucklander]

That, once again, opens up the issue of it being ok for one but not others.

 

[swans2014]

I'm not sure what the exact eligibility rules are for IC this year, but if it's similar to how eligibility was determined by AFL Europe for the recent Euro Cup he wouldn't be eligible (see: http://www.afleurope.org/events-media/events/axios-euro-cup-2013/).

According to wikipedia Rodan moved to Australia when he was 3 so his only chance would be to apply for an exemption and get the AFL to rule that it would be in the best interests of the competition for him to play.

 

[Aucklander]

From that page.

AFL Europe may on a case by case basis, waive the eligibility requirements if it is satisfied that a player is a bona fide resident in the country of the league and his participation would be in the best interests of the competition.

Looks like he'd still need to reside in Fiji to be eligible.

 

[jatz14]

Doesn't explain how Ireland fielded a team half of which was residing and playing in Australia at the last one. Although if you can show Ireland is your normal place of residence, it may not matter that currently you are living in Australia. That certainly wouldn't apply to Rodan

 

[The_Wookie]

Doesn't explain how Ireland fielded a team half of which was residing and playing in Australia at the last one. Although if you can show Ireland is your normal place of residence, it may not matter that currently you are living in Australia. That certainly wouldn't apply to Rodan

I think most of the Irish that played were on student visas.

 

[*Crash*]

Doesn't explain how Ireland fielded a team half of which was residing and playing in Australia at the last one. Although if you can show Ireland is your normal place of residence, it may not matter that currently you are living in Australia. That certainly wouldn't apply to Rodan

The residing and playing in Australia really has little bearing on eligibility. It really is based around having not grown up playing footy in Australia (which Rodan did).

Mal Michael also voiced his want to play for PNG previously. The question was posed to the AFL pre IC11 - the details and qualification rules can be seen here.
Ireland also originally selected Aisake o'hAilpin and Conor Meredith at IC11 who were both with AFL clubs previously but neither ended up playing. They were eligible because they grew up in Ireland. Also the AFL confirmed that Brad Moran who had played with the Crows would be eligible to play with England under the qualification rules.
Similarly - Mike Pyke could play for Canada and the three Americans on lists at St Kilda, North Melbourne and Sydney would all be eligible for IC14 if their clubs let them play. Eddie McGuire said while the last IC was on that he would be happy for Shae McNamara to play for the US - a little late for it to happen though.
Haven't seen the rules for IC14 yet though. And as previously mentioned the AFL can make exceptions. So nothing is impossible if they want to make a call on it.

 

[swans2014]

If the goal is to keep it as an amateur tournament (and maybe it's not, who knows what the AFL want) the simplest way to do it is to declare any player that has been on an AFL rookie or senior list within, for example, the past 5 years automatically ineligible irrespective of where they grew up and learnt the game.

If there is also the desire to encourage countries to bring squads of home based players and not rely on players that are living in Australia and haven't learnt the game in their country of origin there could be a requirement that a certain percentage of players in each squad must have played in the domestic league in the country which they are representing at some point in their football careers. Some countries might find this tough, but there could always be the possibility to apply for exemptions if a strict following of such a rule would prevent a country from fielding a side.

 

[*Crash*]

If the goal is to keep it as an amateur tournament (and maybe it's not, who knows what the AFL want) the simplest way to do it is to declare any player that has been on an AFL rookie or senior list within, for example, the past 5 years automatically ineligible irrespective of where they grew up and learnt the game.

If there is also the desire to encourage countries to bring squads of home based players and not rely on players that are living in Australia and haven't learnt the game in their country of origin there could be a requirement that a certain percentage of players in each squad must have played in the domestic league in the country which they are representing at some point in their football careers. Some countries might find this tough, but there could always be the possibility to apply for exemptions if a strict following of such a rule would prevent a country from fielding a side.

I don't think there ever has been any intention for the tournament to be amateur in the past and unlikely in the future. I I agree with the 'having played in the domestic league in their home country sentiment'. But some countries have no domestic league and others certainly would not make it if this was the rule. Given that we have come this far and it is the norm for countries to fill out their teams this way. I can't see it changing in a hurry either as a push for this would have to come from a majority of the countries involved.

 

[The_Wookie]

I don't think there ever has been any intention for the tournament to be amateur in the past and unlikely in the future. I I agree with the 'having played in the domestic league in their home country sentiment'. But some countries have no domestic league and others certainly would not make it if this was the rule. Given that we have come this far and it is the norm for countries to fill out their teams this way. I can't see it changing in a hurry either as a push for this would have to come from a majority of the countries involved.

Id also argue that given the relative success of the Rugby league world cup, where NRL players represented their home or parents countries to considerable expsoure, would be in the interest of growing the game of Australian football overseas.

Theres a good half dozen actual irishmen, many of whom wont be playing senior footy this year, on AFL club lists. Theres still others out there representing state or district clubs (The Ohailpans - Setanta and Aisake - are signed up at Albury this year). Guys like Touhy at Carlton, and Hanley at Brisbane, obviously wouldnt be available.

Likewise theres a few new Zealanders about the place, particularly on hawthorns rookie list.

 

[*Crash*]

Id also argue that given the relative success of the Rugby league world cup, where NRL players represented their home or parents countries to considerable expsoure, would be in the interest of growing the game of Australian football overseas.

Theres a good half dozen actual irishmen, many of whom wont be playing senior footy this year, on AFL club lists. Theres still others out there representing state or district clubs (The Ohailpans - Setanta and Aisake - are signed up at Albury this year). Guys like Touhy at Carlton, and Hanley at Brisbane, obviously wouldnt be available.

Likewise theres a few new Zealanders about the place, particularly on hawthorns rookie list.

Again from a long time of speaking with people at the IC's and the AFL there is little interest in qualifying players based on parentage or grandparentage even if some individuals like the idea that they could represent another country.

 

[The_Wookie]

Again from a long time of speaking with people at the IC's and the AFL there is little interest in qualifying players based on parentage or grandparentage even if some individuals like the idea that they could represent another country.

That might have been true in the past, but no one was ever able to carry it to the same extent that rugby league did during the world cup. Im not saying the AFL will even reconsider - they are somewhat lax in their international responsibilities at times - but i believe its a relative point.

 

[swans2014]

I don't think there ever has been any intention for the tournament to be amateur in the past and unlikely in the future. I I agree with the 'having played in the domestic league in their home country sentiment'. But some countries have no domestic league and others certainly would not make it if this was the rule. Given that we have come this far and it is the norm for countries to fill out their teams this way. I can't see it changing in a hurry either as a push for this would have to come from a majority of the countries involved.

Neither do I, I just got that sentiment from the article that you posted about the British team. And the part about domestic league was more in response to the references above to the make up of the Irish team at the last IC.

The reality with Aussie rules internationally is that the levels of development of the sport vary dramatically from country to country so strict rules on player eligibility aren't entirely practical. It's important to have some basic guidelines, but the most important thing is that countries aren't impeded from competing, so any rules (or at least most of them) should stay open to applications for exemption. The more advanced the development of Aussie rules in a given country the stricter the eligibility rules should be applied, as the aim of exemptions should be to assist countries where the sport is very new and/or less established, not to give a stronger country the edge required to lift the cup. For that reason I would have far more sympathy to Rodan playing for Fiji, where the sport is quite new and the national team competed in Div 2 at the previous IC, than for Mal Michael turning out for a powerhouse like PNG.

 

[swans2014]

That might have been true in the past, but no one was ever able to carry it to the same extent that rugby league did during the world cup. Im not saying the AFL will even reconsider - they are somewhat lax in their international responsibilities at times - but i believe its a relative point.

I think it would be a massive slap in the face to hard working players in local leagues that dream of playing for their country to have their spots taken away by Australian professionals or semi-professionals who have a parent or grandparent from a country but might have never lived there or even have a connection to footy in that country beyond the crest on their mum's passport.

IC is supposed to be a showpiece of the development of the game internationally and a chance for players who have learnt the game outside Australia to represent their countries and test their skills against others that have learnt the game in similar circumstances. One of the key factors that excites many international players about Aussie rules is that they might one day have the chance to represent their country - most amateur athletes never get this chance, and filling teams with professionals with family ties to a country denies them this opportunity.

 

[The_Wookie]

I think it would be a massive slap in the face to hard working players in local leagues that dream of playing for their country to have their spots taken away by Australian professionals or semi-professionals who have a parent or grandparent from a country but might have never lived there or even have a connection to footy in that country beyond the crest on their mum's passport.

IC is supposed to be a showpiece of the development of the game internationally and a chance for players who have learnt the game outside Australia to represent their countries and test their skills against others that have learnt the game in similar circumstances. One of the key factors that excites many international players about Aussie rules is that they might one day have the chance to represent their country - most amateur athletes never get this chance, and filling teams with professionals with family ties to a country denies them this opportunity.

Sure, but theres considerable upside to these competitions as well, which includes exposure and recognition that they never get otherwise. Having talked to several presidents and coaches of international leagues, one of the things they struggle with is getting Australian football even recognised as a sport.

 

[swans2014]

Sure, but theres considerable upside to these competitions as well, which includes exposure and recognition that they never get otherwise. Having talked to several presidents and coaches of international leagues, one of the things they struggle with is getting Australian football even recognised as a sport.

This problem of recognition is in some cases linked to local regulations that require a sport to have a certain number of participants for it to be officially recognised, it has nothing to do with Aussie rules being a foreign or unfamiliar sport or not enjoying a high level of exposure. A sport could, in theory, be very well known in a country but if the participation levels are low it is not officially recognised.

Having a few professional players with distant connections to a country turn out for a team in an international cup might get a few newspaper articles written, but something like that once every three years when IC is on is unlikely to help local leagues develop sustainably and attract the consistent numbers required to get to the levels required for official recognition. Yes, it might get a bit of attention and a few extra people might take up the game, but I'm not sure whether it's worth taking spots in national teams away from local players.

 

[The_Wookie]

This problem of recognition is in some cases linked to local regulations that require a sport to have a certain number of participants for it to be officially recognised, it has nothing to do with Aussie rules being a foreign or unfamiliar sport or not enjoying a high level of exposure. A sport could, in theory, be very well known in a country but if the participation levels are low it is not officially recognised.

Having a few professional players with distant connections to a country turn out for a team in an international cup might get a few newspaper articles written, but something like that once every three years when IC is on is unlikely to help local leagues develop sustainably and attract the consistent numbers required to get to the levels required for official recognition. Yes, it might get a bit of attention and a few extra people might take up the game, but I'm not sure whether it's worth taking spots in national teams away from local players.

Which is why im saying that based on the only evidence we have the matter - the recent RLWC - it does appear to be a working solution. Theres no way that developing players dont benefit from playing with professionals or former professionals either.

 

[swans2014]

Which is why im saying that based on the only evidence we have the matter - the recent RLWC - it does appear to be a working solution. Theres no way that developing players dont benefit from playing with professionals or former professionals either.

It does seem to have worked in the rugby league context, but the main issue with it for me is that the relative development levels of Aussie rules and rugby league internationally are so far apart that it's very hard to compare the two.

Many of the teams at the RLWC featured squads made up of mostly (or entirely) professional or semi-professional players, but not a single professional player will play at IC2014 (and I doubt many semi-professional players either apart from in the top couple of teams). This makes them very different tournaments, and whilst topping weaker sides up with NRL players in the RLWC may have been effective in a tournament already full of professional players I'm not sure if it would have the same benefit in a tournament where most of the players will be amateurs, some of whom may even be in their first season or two of Aussie rules.

I agree that training and playing with guys who have played at a high level is a great way for players to learn and improve, but whether it is appropriate and helpful depends on the context. Many international leagues have restrictions on Australians because they have found that having too many Australians is in fact bad for the development of local players as guys who have played footy their whole lives easily dominate guys who are learning the game, and often even the stronger local players are relegated to playing minor roles on the field as the Aussies fill the key roles.

Imagine an IC game between Fiji and France (both division 2 sides in IC2011) and with David Rodan, Alipate Carlile and Nic Naitanui lining up together, but France, who would otherwise be a good match for Fiji without the AFL guys included, can't find any players with close enough links to the country and that are willing to play so end up getting flogged because the the 3 AFL guys dominate every contest (and they would). Hardly seems fair.

 

[The_Wookie]

It does seem to have worked in the rugby league context, but the main issue with it for me is that the relative development levels of Aussie rules and rugby league internationally are so far apart that it's very hard to compare the two.

Many of the teams at the RLWC featured squads made up of mostly (or entirely) professional or semi-professional players, but not a single professional player will play at IC2014 (and I doubt many semi-professional players either apart from in the top couple of teams). This makes them very different tournaments, and whilst topping weaker sides up with NRL players in the RLWC may have been effective in a tournament already full of professional players I'm not sure if it would have the same benefit in a tournament where most of the players will be amateurs, some of whom may even be in their first season or two of Aussie rules.

I agree that training and playing with guys who have played at a high level is a great way for players to learn and improve, but whether it is appropriate and helpful depends on the context. Many international leagues have restrictions on Australians because they have found that having too many Australians is in fact bad for the development of local players as guys who have played footy their whole lives easily dominate guys who are learning the game, and often even the stronger local players are relegated to playing minor roles on the field as the Aussies fill the key roles.

Imagine an IC game between Fiji and France (both division 2 sides in IC2011) and with David Rodan, Alipate Carlile and Nic Naitanui lining up together, but France, who would otherwise be a good match for Fiji without the AFL guys included, can't find any players with close enough links to the country and that are willing to play so end up getting flogged because the the 3 AFL guys dominate every contest (and they would). Hardly seems fair.

As it is now, its rare that a team outside of Ireland, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, has a shot at winning the cup. Divisions might have to be rearranged according to the numbers, and ther emight have to be a limit. I can see your point in regards to developing players, but Im not sure that not allowing the best to represent is in the best interests of the game.

It is particularly galling to me when there is probably a dozen irishmen playing the game either at AFL or state league level, who could top up from the irish guys at district and regional clubs to put on a reasonably competitive show against even a state side at the Australian game, yet we're condemned to watch the hybritd crap the league serves up.

 

[swans2014]

As it is now, its rare that a team outside of Ireland, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, has a shot at winning the cup. Divisions might have to be rearranged according to the numbers, and ther emight have to be a limit. I can see your point in regards to developing players, but Im not sure that not allowing the best to represent is in the best interests of the game.

It is particularly galling to me when there is probably a dozen irishmen playing the game either at AFL or state league level, who could top up from the irish guys at district and regional clubs to put on a reasonably competitive show against even a state side at the Australian game, yet we're condemned to watch the hybritd crap the league serves up.

I think the Irish are a separate case and should be viewed as such because Gaelic football is quite similar to Aussie rules meaning they have a distinct advantage when learning Aussie rules. I agree with you that a post-season match that put a genuine Irish team versus a state league team would be far more interesting (at least to me) than the international rules series.

When it comes to letting the best compete I think providing a more or less even playing field is more in the best interests of the game than throwing a couple of professional guys who have a grandparent born in a competing country in each team to try and get a few headlines and maybe a few extra recruits.

 

[jatz14]

The IC cup should be viewed more as an experimental development tournament than a formal world cup like event, and the rules should be along the lines of 'go with whatever works in the situation'.

In the Rodan situation, ask Fiji (or is it PNG) if they want him. As they may struggle for numbers, keeping a local out may not be an issue. Then ask the other countries involved if they are prepared to accept him playing for Fiji, and if so, he is in.

Reading blogs and tweets from people involved, they get a huge buzz out of playing for their country. I suspect that anything that raises the quality of the comp, and the standard of the best players will enhance the experience, even if it means that they lose some games badly. If I was an American Aussie footy fan and player coming to Australia to play for the USA in an international tournament, and I was told we were playing Fiji, but they had Rodan and NN and Carlile playing for them, I think I would wet myself in excitement.

 

[The_Wookie]

Worth noting this from the AFL AIS v NZ game coming up

The squad includes two AFL international scholarship holders, Siope Ngata (Hawthorn) and Joe Baker-Thomas (St Kilda). Khan Haretuku (Frankston, VFL) will also line up for the Hawks, as will four members of the Northern Territory Thunder including the Thunder captain, Cameron Illet, and Lachlan Argus, Matthew Argus and Brendon Clark. Andrew Howison (Collegians, VAFA) and Andy Christenson round out the Australian based contingent.

http://www.bigfootynews.com/2014/01/8081/