Investigation into Essendon Fitness Program

[fishardansin]

Makes sense.
Co-operation has been a big word from ASADA since all this started. And while they have made it clear that co-operation wont totally avoid penalty, it should result in the minimum.

Depends. If like Essendon and you're pretty sure that you did nothing wrong, but are dealing with the perception that you did, you'd want to clear your name. Hence, you help the investigation along. If you're pretty sure you crossed the line and are looking at club destroying penalties, you circle the wagons and demand that they prove it. Even if people involved in Cronulla are eventually found guilty in 5 years time, their career would be over anyhow, and who cares about penalties.

Sure the record books don't say that Lance Amstrong won 7 tours, nor did Storm win those two flags. However, they did on the day.

By the time the penalities come to pass, it wont hurt Cronulla as they'll have turned over the list a fair bit.

 

[fishardansin]

This actually may not be right (I thought the same as you)

Yesterday on SEN a former bomber who is now a player manager (sorry - mental blank cannot remember his name) said he knew from discussions with managers some players had been interviewed, but he wouldn't say who.

Based upon previous rumours, it may however be 2012 EFC players no longer on the EFC list (some BF speculation some time ago Lonergan and Monfries had been interviewed, but it was thin)

Lucas, Ramanaskus and Olarenshaw are managers.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Lucas, Ramanaskus and Olarenshaw are managers.

Yep, it was Scott Lucas (had the image of his ugly mug in my brain and just couldnt remember the name!!!)

 

[DudleyB]

I now truly believe the main objective of the Ziggy Report was to go though everything with a fine tooth comb to uncover every piece of evidence, every smoking gun and destroy or neutralise it before ASADA found it.

Best to have full knowledge internally.

If the Bombers were genuinely interested in exposing the truth publicly they have would have bought in an independent external team - remember the AFL called in Deloitte to investigate the Crows

 

[DonsRule]

This actually may not be right (I thought the same as you)

Yesterday on SEN a former bomber who is now a player manager (sorry - mental blank cannot remember his name) said he knew from discussions with managers some players had been interviewed, but he wouldn't say who.

Based upon previous rumours, it may however be 2012 EFC players no longer on the EFC list (some BF speculation some time ago Lonergan and Monfries had been interviewed, but it was thin)

I believe it was Lucas that was mentioned. But as you said, no mention of the 2 names.

 

[DonsRule]

I now truly believe the main objective of the Ziggy Report was to go though everything with a fine tooth comb to uncover every piece of evidence, every smoking gun and destroy or neutralise it before ASADA found it.

Best to have full knowledge internally.

If the Bombers were genuinely interested in exposing the truth publicly they have would have bought in an independent external team - remember the AFL called in Deloitte to investigate the Crows

The report that was handed to ASADA. Oh wait, they got the covered up version.

 

[DudleyB]

The report that was handed to ASADA. Oh wait, they got the covered up version.

Yes they received a report conducted by EFC on EFC.

Now Im not sure what planet you live on - but generally reports conducted on yourself arent worth much.

Kind of like the HSUs internal investigation or Eddie Obeid conducted a review on himself. Id be taking it with several grains of salt.

So dont be patting yourself too hard on the back because you 'handed over a report to ASADA'. I doubt theyd even waste their time reading it.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I now truly believe the main objective of the Ziggy Report was to go though everything with a fine tooth comb to uncover every piece of evidence, every smoking gun and destroy or neutralise it before ASADA found it.

Best to have full knowledge internally.

If the Bombers were genuinely interested in exposing the truth publicly they have would have bought in an independent external team - remember the AFL called in Deloitte to investigate the Crows

What did they sweep under the carpet?

They have said their docs were ignored, coach had no follow up and demanded no accountability, no one knew who was in charge between bomber/hird/etc, and a culture of experimentation with exotic supplements had taken hold.

Its hardly saying "alls good, it was an admin error".

As for hiding stuff from ASADA, they have had EFC's logs and other paperwork for months now. The horse has bolted on that stuff too. More importantly, ASADA don't give a stuff about any investigation other than their own. Do you seriously think they will change their view on charging players based upon the Ziggy report?

This report will result in a number of senior staff being booted regardless of AFL sanction, and I'd be surprised if Hird retains anywhere near the power he has today if he survives (the report was damning on him - inexperienced, naive, and failing to hold staff accountable to your own policies are hardly traits desirable in a senior manager).

 

[DonsRule]

Yes they received a report conducted by EFC on EFC.

Now Im not sure what planet you live on - but generally reports conducted on yourself arent worth much.

Conducted by Ziggy, external to the club (Essendon called him in, yes), to conduct a review.


Blah blah, he supports Essendon wah wah wah,

Is is not an employee of the Essendon Football Club, there for it was not internal.

And as said above, the report, even the puclic version was scaving of the club. Lacked a lot of accountability.

 

[DudleyB]

What did they sweep under the carpet?

They have said their docs were ignored, coach had no follow up and demanded no accountability, no one knew who was in charge between bomber/hird/etc, and a culture of experimentation with exotic supplements had taken hold.

Its hardly saying "alls good, it was an admin error".

As for hiding stuff from ASADA, they have had EFC's logs and other paperwork for months now. The horse has bolted on that stuff too. More importantly, ASADA don't give a stuff about any investigation other than their own. Do you seriously think they will change their view on charging players based upon the Ziggy report?

This report will result in a number of senior staff being booted regardless of AFL sanction, and I'd be surprised if Hird retains anywhere near the power he has today if he survives (the report was damning on him - inexperienced, naive, and failing to hold staff accountable to your own policies are hardly traits desirable in a senior manager).

Yep agree. The Ziggy report is a PR exercise and a trawling exercise in case there was stuff they didnt know and needed to deal with.
I doubt anyone at ASADA would waste 5 minutes reading it.

 

[DudleyB]

Conducted by Ziggy, external to the club (Essendon called him in, yes), to conduct a review.


Blah blah, he supports Essendon wah wah wah,

Is is not an employee of the Essendon Football Club, there for it was not internal.

And as said above, the report, even the puclic version was scaving of the club. Lacked a lot of accountability.

It is not an external review.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Yep agree. The Ziggy report is a PR exercise and a trawling exercise in case there was stuff they didnt know and needed to deal with.
I doubt anyone at ASADA would waste 5 minutes reading it.

No, it was an internal review to determine what procedures and structures failed to allow this situation to occur.

Something ASADA don't give a toss about

Something extremely important for EFC to learn from

 

[DudleyB]

No, it was an internal review to determine what procedures and structures failed to allow this situation to occur.

Something ASADA don't give a toss about

Something extremely important for EFC to learn from

Disagree. If they truly wanted to learn - get people expert in the field. If they want the truth. Get a retired Judge or a QC.

Not buying it.

 

[mxett]

Disagree. If they truly wanted to learn - get people expert in the field. If they want the truth. Get a retired Judge or a QC.

Not buying it.

You don't have to buy it. The review was for essendons use not yours

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Disagree. If they truly wanted to learn - get people expert in the field. If they want the truth. Get a retired Judge or a QC.

Not buying it.

What does a judge know about management structures, reporting procedures and so on?

This was a review to determine functional weaknesses, not one to find out who did what wrong. The who did what wrong investigation is being run by ASADA, who are best placed to do that

 

[DudleyB]

You don't have to buy it. The review was for essendons use not yours

You speak for Essendon? Are you a fan or an employee?

 

[DonsRule]

No, it was an internal review to determine what procedures and structures failed to allow this situation to occur.

Something ASADA don't give a toss about

Something extremely important for EFC to learn from

My fault.

But, none the less, calling it a coverup, it rather an odd choice, concerning.

Not sure that would solve the issue anyway, would it?

External, you speak to everyone the club dealt with, even if Essendon covered it up if it went anywhere near the club, one of their suppliers would have had a record (part of ASADA's investigations), using the ACC at some level,

The only part ASADA might be interested is there was a record of confirmation that ASADA said what ever drug was okay, via some internal source) ASADA could co check their own records to confirm or deny..

 

[Lance Uppercut]

That's the way I read it

same

 

[Sector 7G]

It is not an external review.

You can argue about whether it is internal/external but what it is not is independent and thorough.

While it might be scathing in it's criticism can you have any confidence it is a true reflection of the situation at the club, especially as they didn't interview the key individuals?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

You can argue about whether it is internal/external but what it is not is independent and thorough.

While it might be scathing in it's criticism can you have any confidence it is a true reflection of the situation at the club, especially as they didn't interview the key individuals?

Would these be the two key individuals who are currently suing EFC?

FWIW I believe Hamilton was interviewed, so its not like they were only interviewing existing employees.

 

[mxett]

You speak for Essendon? Are you a fan or an employee?

I don't speak for Essendon just like you don't speak for the public. Its irrelevant what you or the public think because Essendon performed their own investigation for their own purposes

 

[PoppedCorn]

 

[DudleyB]

What does a judge know about management structures, reporting procedures and so on?

This was a review to determine functional weaknesses, not one to find out who did what wrong. The who did what wrong investigation is being run by ASADA, who are best placed to do that

Oh so ASADA are the relevant authority now? The same ASADA that not a single person at the EFC thought to call back in 2012.
Oh right. Thanks for letting me know how this is all governed rfctiger. Terrific stuff mate.

'Management structures' hey.. That old chestnut!

This brings me to another issue:

Essendon (with AFL support) have a coordinated strategy to beat this that has four pillars:

1. Create maximum doubt and confusion in relation to the WADA code and regulatory and legal matters. Focus on potential 'grey areas' in the code.
2. Isolate and demonise Dank and keep him as an outsider of the EFC. Cut him loose and apportion any unavoidable blame in his direction as an 'outsider'
3. Maintain a united positive and confident front for everyone 'inside' the EFC. EFC insiders to publicly convey innocence in statements and appearances.
4. Use passive language and externalise blame such by using words such as 'management practices', 'due diligence', 'record keeping'. This keeps the blame on 'process' and not individuals. It removes intent or human involvement.


So from now now I suggest people use these 4 pillars as a guide - and you will find that every single comment from the EFC and from Bombers fans can safely fit into their 4 pillars strategy..

Once you can identify the pillar - you can just chuckle and politely ignore the EFC and the rabid fan who is quick to arms.

 

[DonsRule]

That's the way I read it

We're making Chief rich through all the ads etc though.


HE's probably booking a holiday s we speak. Be the first Big Footy member to go to space.

 

[DudleyB]

I don't speak for Essendon just like you don't speak for the public. Its irrelevant what you or the public think because Essendon performed their own investigation for their own purposes

Yeah! You tell me ! Put me back in my box! I've been served bigtime by mxett!