Investigation into Essendon Fitness Program

[SaintsSeptember]

Depends. If like Essendon and you're pretty sure that you did nothing wrong, but are dealing with the perception that you did, you'd want to clear your name. Hence, you help the investigation along. If you're pretty sure you crossed the line and are looking at club destroying penalties, you circle the wagons and demand that they prove it. Even if people involved in Cronulla are eventually found guilty in 5 years time, their career would be over anyhow, and who cares about penalties.

Sure the record books don't say that Lance Amstrong won 7 tours, nor did Storm win those two flags. However, they did on the day.

By the time the penalities come to pass, it wont hurt Cronulla as they'll have turned over the list a fair bit.

If the club is complicit in covering it up and they prove it, they can pretty much destroy it ( the club ) if they choose.

 

[rumply]

Player interviews had not begin when this report came out though.

yes they had

were not going to agree on the interpretation, just leave it there

 

[jenny61_99]

yes they had

Who?

 

[The Prosecutor]

Who?

We don't know which specific players.

 

[jenny61_99]

We don't know which specific players.

Ah. I see. So you "believe" that some players have already been interviewed, but you don't "know" for sure?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Oh so ASADA are the relevant authority now? The same ASADA that not a single person at the EFC thought to call back in 2012.
Oh right. Thanks for letting me know how this is all governed rfctiger. Terrific stuff mate.

'Management structures' hey.. That old chestnut!

This brings me to another issue:

Essendon (with AFL support) have a coordinated strategy to beat this that has four pillars:

1. Create maximum doubt and confusion in relation to the WADA code and regulatory and legal matters. Focus on potential 'grey areas' in the code.
2. Isolate and demonise Dank and keep him as an outsider of the EFC. Cut him loose and apportion any unavoidable blame in his direction as an 'outsider'
3. Maintain a united positive and confident front for everyone 'inside' the EFC. EFC insiders to publicly convey innocence in statements and appearances.
4. Use passive language and externalise blame such by using words such as 'management practices', 'due diligence', 'record keeping'. This keeps the blame on 'process' and not individuals. It removes intent or human involvement.


So from now now I suggest people use these 4 pillars as a guide - and you will find that every single comment from the EFC and from Bombers fans can safely fit into their 4 pillars strategy..

Once you can identify the pillar - you can just chuckle and politely ignore the EFC and the rabid fan who is quick to arms.

*sigh*

1) ASADA won't care what confusion anyone creates publicly, they will determine guilt based upon the evidence they find and assess.

2) ASADA will consider any push by EFC to blame everything on Dank by examining all evidence, and deciding if it backs up this claim. This is not their first rodeo, and they know how to collaborate this stuff.

3) They could be growing roses out their arses siging "when the bombers fly up", being optimistic won't effect the ASADA investigation at all.

4) ASADA's job is to find guilt by individuals, not shit house management practices. Which is why I said ASADA will investigate to find WHO is to blame, but EFC still needed their own review to determine WHY it all happened full stop.

You seem to be thinking public perception and media bias will guide ASADA, but they don't give a shit. They will decide based upon evidence, which is why all these issues you raised are completely irrelevant to them

 

[PoppedCorn]

cant be true then if we dont know which specific players

 

[The Prosecutor]

Ah. I see. So you "believe" that some players have already been interviewed, but you don't "know" for sure?

No.

We know some players have been interviewed, we just don't know which specific players.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If the club is complicit in covering it up and they prove it, they can pretty much destroy it ( the club ) if they choose.

The Cronulla strategy is baffling me. Like EFC their management is completely caught up in this, so its inevitable that the club will be whacked too.

Given their financial state, you think they would be pushing for a deal

 

[Lance Uppercut]

interesting.

THE Adelaide researcher who conducted clinical trials of the banned drug (AOD9604) reportedly prescribed to Essendon AFL players says it has no proven anti-obesity or muscle repairing effects.

However, the drug was found to have a “euphoric” effect in a majority of people and has been patented as an anti-depressant

Adelaide University Chair of Medicine Professor Gary Wittert was the chief investigator in a series of clinical trials of AOD-9604 conducted on behalf of the manufacturer Metabolic and which were completed in 2007.

Wittert led a team which conducted three human trials into AOD-9604 including a final three month testing.

“We designed a six month study properly powered to look at the outcome of ‘would it be a drug suitable for weight loss’ and the outcome from that was a definitive no,” he said.

Wittert said after that, he had “assumed the company had stopped developing the drug”.

“Now it’s been in some cream and just about every journalist has called it an anti-obesity drug, which it ain’t – it’s a failed anti-obesity drug at best.”

Wittert said there was no clinical evidence that it helped with tissue repair or had any other benefit in people.

“However, when we gave it intravenously, we noticed that 60 per cent of people felt a euphoric effect, so Chris Belyea [CEO of Metabolic] and I patented it as an anti-depressant.”

During the intravenous trial no person had more than three doses which were given at least a week apart.

http://www.indaily.com.au/?iid=77024&sr=0#

So, not a PED, but I can see why you'd call it "the good gear"

 

[Sector 7G]

Would these be the two key individuals who are currently suing EFC?

FWIW I believe Hamilton was interviewed, so its not like they were only interviewing existing employees.

I understand and agree with your argument on why Essendon couldn't talk to individuals suing them, but it far from complete and the report may not provide a true picture of the situation at Essendon.

Funny how at most places I have worked, stuff ups get blamed on people who have just left. It is like an amnesty.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

interesting.





http://www.indaily.com.au/?iid=77024&sr=0#

So, not a PED, but I can see why you'd call it "the good gear"

It is interesting. But the consent form, which purports to inform the players what is recommended and why, is clear that it is being injected to aid recovery. That was either the belief held by Dank and Hird, or the players were being hoodwinked. (Although maybe the euphoric effects haven't yet worn off? That would explain a lot.)

 

[SaintsSeptember]

*sigh*

1) ASADA won't care what confusion anyone creates publicly, they will determine guilt based upon the evidence they find and assess.

2) ASADA will consider any push by EFC to blame everything on Dank by examining all evidence, and deciding if it backs up this claim. This is not their first rodeo, and they know how to collaborate this stuff.

3) They could be growing roses out their arses siging "when the bombers fly up", being optimistic won't effect the ASADA investigation at all.

4) ASADA's job is to find guilt by individuals, not shit house management practices. Which is why I said ASADA will investigate to find WHO is to blame, but EFC still needed their own review to determine WHY it all happened full stop.

You seem to be thinking public perception and media bias will guide ASADA, but they don't give a shit. They will decide based upon evidence, which is why all these issues you raised are completely irrelevant to them

Agreed

ASADA will be gathering facts. They will not be getting in arguments with anyone.
If the AFL and Essendon really believe that those things will get them off I suspect that there will be a jaw dropping moment when ASADA politely inform them of the outcome.

As far as isolating Danks. I dont feel that they can allow this. Recruiting a stooge/fallguy to dope your players cannot be deemed acceptable. The scenario below this line cannot be permitted.

( Say club X recruit a guy "Mr Y " and pay him a million bucks to look after the sports science. He arranges for steroid injections for all the players, then they sack him as per their previous verbal agreement. Club X is happy they have pumped up players, its not their fault they were injected and Mr Y has not broken the law , he's just banned from sports clubs - No losers ).

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I understand and agree with your argument on why Essendon couldn't talk to individuals suing them, but it far from complete and the report may not provide a true picture of the situation at Essendon.

Funny how at most places I have worked, stuff ups get blamed on people who have just left. It is like an amnesty.

I think we also need to remember that this is an executive summary based upon only a partial report. The rest will be disclosed after ASADA are done. I don't think Ziggy will pull any punches either, he's already called the Golden Boy naive, inexperienced, and a coach who failed to enforce accountability on directives he gave - this is hardly glowing, and its only based upon the partial report.

Remember this is about procedures, processes, and reporting lines. The issue won't be "Dank/Weapon are to blame", but "the CEO/CFO/Footy Ops Manager/coach/doc/Bomber failed to do their jobs and manage their responsibilities, and this created an environment where this abuse could occur".

Allowing Dank to run free is going to get people sacked, because he should never have had the scope to do what he did. No oversight, no management, no approvals. People will lose their jobs who are in more senior roles, and who remain at the club today.

 

[rumply]

interesting.


THE Adelaide researcher who conducted clinical trials of the banned drug (AOD9604) reportedly prescribed to Essendon AFL players says it has no proven anti-obesity or muscle repairing effects.

However, the drug was found to have a “euphoric” effect in a majority of people and has been patented as an anti-depressant


http://www.indaily.com.au/?iid=77024&sr=0#

So, not a PED, but I can see why you'd call it "the good gear"

The goose who developed this stuff needs a good slap

 

[Satan]

interesting.





http://www.indaily.com.au/?iid=77024&sr=0#

So, not a PED, but I can see why you'd call it "the good gear"

Could be a rush for the stuff in a few months from a few ppl on the board

 

[Sector 7G]

I think we also need to remember that this is an executive summary based upon only a partial report. The rest will be disclosed after ASADA are done. I don't think Ziggy will pull any punches either, he's already called the Golden Boy naive, inexperienced, and a coach who failed to enforce accountability on directives he gave - this is hardly glowing, and its only based upon the partial report.

Remember this is about procedures, processes, and reporting lines. The issue won't be "Dank/Weapon are to blame", but "the CEO/CFO/Footy Ops Manager/coach/doc/Bomber failed to do their jobs and manage their responsibilities, and this created an environment where this abuse could occur".

Allowing Dank to run free is going to get people sacked, because he should never have had the scope to do what he did. No oversight, no management, no approvals. People will lose their jobs who are in more senior roles, and who remain at the club today.

Agree but enter fall guy number 2 - Paul Hamilton. Without clearly defined roles and responsibilties/ limits of authority it is hard to state where the blame truly lies after a momumental distaster like this. By saying Hird is an inexperienced coach actually puts more responsibilty on those around him an mitigates his responsibilty. FWIW I think the buck stops with the coach. I can't see Andy McKay going around saying he is MM's boss. Mick is very much in charge.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Agree but enter fall guy number 2 - Paul Hamilton. Without clearly defined roles and responsibilties/ limits of authority it is hard to state where the blame truly lies after a momumental distaster like this. By saying Hird is an inexperienced coach actually puts more responsibilty on those around him an mitigates his responsibilty. FWIW I think the buck stops with the coach. I can't see Andy McKay going around saying he is MM's boss. Mick is very much in charge.

I think Hamilton SHOULD get the blame, but the report has already mentioned Hird, Bomber, and the sports sciences dudes confusing lines of command. They will all either be chopped or see massive changes in the scope of their roles.

The one I feel for is Corcoran - he's copped the mother of all hospital passes.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

It is interesting. But the consent form, which purports to inform the players what is recommended and why, is clear that it is being injected to aid recovery. That was either the belief held by Dank and Hird, or the players were being hoodwinked. (Although maybe the euphoric effects haven't yet worn off? That would explain a lot.)

I think we can agree Dank is a good snake-oils salesman

 

[DudleyB]

*sigh*

1) ASADA won't care what confusion anyone creates publicly, they will determine guilt based upon the evidence they find and assess.

2) ASADA will consider any push by EFC to blame everything on Dank by examining all evidence, and deciding if it backs up this claim. This is not their first rodeo, and they know how to collaborate this stuff.

3) They could be growing roses out their arses siging "when the bombers fly up", being optimistic won't effect the ASADA investigation at all.

4) ASADA's job is to find guilt by individuals, not shit house management practices. Which is why I said ASADA will investigate to find WHO is to blame, but EFC still needed their own review to determine WHY it all happened full stop.

You seem to be thinking public perception and media bias will guide ASADA, but they don't give a shit. They will decide based upon evidence, which is why all these issues you raised are completely irrelevant to them

Believe it or not I agree with you 100%.

I believe that the EFC and their fans are being given false hope by lawyers and PR advisers who have provided them with the 4 pillar plan.

The lawyers involved with the AFL and EFC will have had very little experience in drugs in sports.

The reality as you point out is that ASADA (and WADA) have been in this business for 30 years. They will have seen every defence under the sun. They will laugh off the 4 pillar strategy.

 

[DudleyB]

Agreed

ASADA will be gathering facts. They will not be getting in arguments with anyone.
If the AFL and Essendon really believe that those things will get them off I suspect that there will be a jaw dropping moment when ASADA politely inform them of the outcome.

As far as isolating Danks. I dont feel that they can allow this. Recruiting a stooge/fallguy to dope your players cannot be deemed acceptable. The scenario below this line cannot be permitted.

( Say club X recruit a guy "Mr Y " and pay him a million bucks to look after the sports science. He arranges for steroid injections for all the players, then they sack him as per their previous verbal agreement. Club X is happy they have pumped up players, its not their fault they were injected and Mr Y has not broken the law , he's just banned from sports clubs - No losers ).

They are pushing the "Dank went rogue and acted outside our instructions and authorisation chain' angle.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Agree but enter fall guy number 2 - Paul Hamilton. Without clearly defined roles and responsibilties/ limits of authority it is hard to state where the blame truly lies after a momumental distaster like this. By saying Hird is an inexperienced coach actually puts more responsibilty on those around him an mitigates his responsibilty. FWIW I think the buck stops with the coach. I can't see Andy McKay going around saying he is MM's boss. Mick is very much in charge.

So if Mick wants to get the Carlton players on the gear there is nothing stopping him?
( There were/are still rumours about Collingwood ).

 

[mxett]

*sigh*

1) ASADA won't care what confusion anyone creates publicly, they will determine guilt based upon the evidence they find and assess.

2) ASADA will consider any push by EFC to blame everything on Dank by examining all evidence, and deciding if it backs up this claim. This is not their first rodeo, and they know how to collaborate this stuff.

3) They could be growing roses out their arses siging "when the bombers fly up", being optimistic won't effect the ASADA investigation at all.

4) ASADA's job is to find guilt by individuals, not shit house management practices. Which is why I said ASADA will investigate to find WHO is to blame, but EFC still needed their own review to determine WHY it all happened full stop.

You seem to be thinking public perception and media bias will guide ASADA, but they don't give a shit. They will decide based upon evidence, which is why all these issues you raised are completely irrelevant to them

Well said.

 

[Daytripper]

Believe it or not I agree with you 100%.

I believe that the EFC and their fans are being given false hope by lawyers and PR advisers who have provided them with the 4 pillar plan.

The lawyers involved with the AFL and EFC will have had very little experience in drugs in sports.

The reality as you point out is that ASADA (and WADA) have been in this business for 30 years. They will have seen every defence under the sun. They will laugh off the 4 pillar strategy.

You really have no idea.

They are always going to under promise and over deliver at a bare minimum. Its basic Risk Management 101. Evans has been especially conservative around since all this started.

These are not BF nuffies here. They are experienced business and PR people who have plenty of experience with this sort of damage control.

To suggest that they have hired PR to give supporters false hope is one of the more ridiculous things I've heard.

 

[mxett]

Believe it or not I agree with you 100%.

I believe that the EFC and their fans are being given false hope by lawyers and PR advisers who have provided them with the 4 pillar plan.

The lawyers involved with the AFL and EFC will have had very little experience in drugs in sports.

The reality as you point out is that ASADA (and WADA) have been in this business for 30 years. They will have seen every defence under the sun. They will laugh off the 4 pillar strategy.

"ANY Essendon player found guilty of taking banned substances could mount a compelling case to avoid suspension, a leading Melbourne sports solicitor said yesterday."

http://www.sportslawyer.com.au/lawyer-sets-out-a-defence-for-essendon.htm

But what would he know right? Delusional?