Investigation into Essendon Fitness Program

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Ron The Bear said:
Your captions, please. :)

151710-james-hird.jpg

James Hird after his press conference at Windy Hill. Picture: Wayne Ludbey (Herald Sun)
Click to expand...



Bad boys bad boys
WADA gona do
WADA gona do
when they come for you?

This isnt about EFC, Dank, AFL, AFLPA, ASADA, NASA, SPC or NSA

Big picture is its between WADA and individual athletes in a WADA registered code, that's the end game.

GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER

Would the AFL keep their WADA certification if they conspire to help EFC escape?

Which is worth more to Vlad?

Do the NSA have a copy of this letter in PRISM seeing i quoted them twice?

Come to think of it maybe they have a copy of the Dank letter, we should ask Obama.......
 
tigerdan said:
Yes, that is a point. But if you wind the clock backwards you can't realistically claim that Essendon became aware of AOD and then decided that the WADA code was wrong and therefore they were going to use it anyhow. To quote Captain Barbossa "t'would strain credulity, aye"

So we have to get to the bottom of why they thought it was ok to take.

Either they thought (or were told) it was ok... Or they thought they would not get caught. I don't see any other realistic third option.
Click to expand...


Don't disagree it would have to be info that allowed them to make the decision at the time, or reinforces info that helped them make the original decision
 
Jimthegreat said:
The story so far.....

1. We're shocked to be sitting here
2. We don't know what we've taken
3. We've taken nothing illegal
4. No one outside Dank and the Weapon knew what was going on
5. Those invoices? What invoices? Oh, you mean the ones we signed and paid.
6. We don't know what we've taken
7. We've taken nothing illegal
8. What consent forms?
9. Oh. those consent forms. They don't prove that the substances named were actually taken.
10. The coaches and doctors didn't know about the forms or the program. Its all Dank and the Weapon's fault.
11. Oh yeah. Hirdy was in the room when the Consent forms were signed
12. And oh yeah - Hirdy had a six month text fling with Dank raving on about the program
13. We don't know what we've taken
14. We've taken nothing illegal
15. But wait! We have a letter
16. No we don't
17. The forms state AOD-9604
18. But look! it's not in Section S2 of the WADA banned substances list
19. Oh, but it is in section S0. Damn!
20. But look there have been some cosmetics use! All clear!
21. Damn... WADA says banned for athletes
22. Yeah but... we aren't saying we took AOD-9604
23. But if we did take it, we think we're fine
24. Jobe admits he took a banned substance.
25. Doc Reid knew about it after all
26. But we're still fine. Jobe and Timmy say so.

Yeah, they've been open, honest and co operative throughout.
Click to expand...



You forgot about the "It's OK to use AOD if you have a prescription and obtain it from a compounding pharmacist. Oh shit, that only applies for medications approved for human use. Damn!" Think it comes in before point 22 ;)
 

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Jimthegreat said:
The story so far.....

1. We're shocked to be sitting here
2. We don't know what we've taken
3. We've taken nothing illegal
4. No one outside Dank and the Weapon knew what was going on
5. Those invoices? What invoices? Oh, you mean the ones we signed and paid.
6. We don't know what we've taken
7. We've taken nothing illegal
8. What consent forms?
9. Oh. those consent forms. They don't prove that the substances named were actually taken.
10. The coaches and doctors didn't know about the forms or the program. Its all Dank and the Weapon's fault.
11. Oh yeah. Hirdy was in the room when the Consent forms were signed
12. And oh yeah - Hirdy had a six month text fling with Dank raving on about the program
13. We don't know what we've taken
14. We've taken nothing illegal
15. But wait! We have a letter
16. No we don't
17. The forms state AOD-9604
18. But look! it's not in Section S2 of the WADA banned substances list
19. Oh, but it is in section S0. Damn!
20. But look there have been some cosmetics use! All clear!
21. Damn... WADA says banned for athletes
22. Yeah but... we aren't saying we took AOD-9604
23. But if we did take it, we think we're fine
24. Jobe admits he took a banned substance.
25. Doc Reid knew about it after all
26. But we're still fine. Jobe and Timmy say so.

Yeah, they've been open, honest and co operative throughout.
Click to expand...

There should also be:
2.1 Oh we can't comment during the investigation.
3.1 Oh we can't comment during the investigation.
4.1 Oh we can't comment during the investigation. etc...
 
So, it's looking very much like it's down to when the bans will be announced, and the period of the ban (6 months - 2 years). Surely the players in question CANNOT be allowed to play out this season (once the findings confirmed), including potential finals matches...
 
One my biggest issues with this whole program at Essendon, that says they are hiding something, if the fact they claim they didn't keep records on what was given to players.

There is no way in hell this information wasn't kept, these program's were tailored for players so you would have written down what they were going to get and when and had follow up.

Players wouldn't have come in and been given random drugs based on a whim.
 
Damo80 said:
So, it's looking very much like it's down to when the bans will be announced, and the period of the ban (6 months - 2 years). Surely the players in question CANNOT be allowed to play out this season (once the findings confirmed), including potential finals matches...
Click to expand...

I doubt if ASADA are feeling the pressure, so it will happen when it happens.
It could happen before finals this year. Will be interesting to see how they apply a disqualification period if it crosses the "off season"
 
TheLastCall said:
One my biggest issues with this whole program at Essendon, that says they are hiding something, if the fact they claim they didn't keep records on what was given to players.

There is no way in hell this information wasn't kept, these program's were tailored for players so you would have written down what they were going to get and when and had follow up.

Players wouldn't have come in and been given random drugs based on a whim.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't you normally have records of who was injected with what and when, just in case there is some sort of reaction, purely for the players safet..... oh its Essendon.
 
rfctiger74 said:
They can allow competition during the appeals process however (as we saw with Contador). This is for good reason too, as we saw with Alex Watson. Booked from the 1988 games for caffeine use (he maintained it was only through drinking coffee which was permitted), ultimately it was overturned due to failings in the IOC testing processes. This was cold comfort though, as you cannot wind back the clock and let him compete again. Watson/EFC are claiming AOD is a permitted supplement, and given the review of this case is still being tested, isn't it best to wait a few more weeks for this to be concluded? Once you ban him from playing and take the brownlow off him, you cannot unring that bell
Click to expand...

You can't unring the bell.

Essendon should have taken that into consideration when first they started this. Essendon have said Dank had permission. That was their card. That has disappeared. Every other defence they they tested publicly has disappeared. Essendon aren't the authority. Or any kind of authority in this. WADA is, and they have been unequivocal. I think the problem here is that Jobe's interview is a game changer and it can't be covered up - and it's taking some time to sink in.
 
Watson had admitted taking a banned drugs. It's a strict liability offence. Watson's omission was made in the public domain.

Why isn't the AFL Commission meeting to determine his penalty for admitting taking AOD? In what other sport has an athlete made an admission like this and the competed the following weekend?

You have to think that Bill Kelty is behind the scenes again. Just as he was when he met with Hird, after reading the full ASADA report and before Hird's ASADA interview.

Kelty must stand down, and the AFL must suspend Watson from competition immediately and strip him of his Brownlow medal. Waiting for the full investigation is a farce - because it is allowing a drug cheat to compete. It is also unnecessary because Watson's admissions are in the public domain. It's a strict liability offence.

The AFL is setting an extraordinary precedent.
 

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SaintsSeptember said:
I doubt if ASADA are feeling the pressure, so it will happen when it happens.
It could happen before finals this year. Will be interesting to see how they apply a disqualification period if it crosses the "off season"
Click to expand...
Geelong have applied for SJ to do his 2 weeks over Christmas. We are waiting for a reply.
 
SaintsSeptember said:
I doubt if ASADA are feeling the pressure, so it will happen when it happens.
It could happen before finals this year. Will be interesting to see how they apply a disqualification period if it crosses the "off season"
Click to expand...
Re: timing of the bans, my understanding is that the findings are expected prior to the finals series, aren't they? It is on this assumption that I made the statement I did re: them surely not being allowed to play the remainder of the season - basically, what I'm saying is, surely the AFL (or WADA) won't say, "well, you're travelling pretty well in season 2013, so we'll let you play it out, then you can sit out pre-season, NAB Cup, and maybe the first month or two of season 2014...".
 
THE AFL Players' Association says it is "premature and unfair" to suggest Jobe Watson should lose his Brownlow medal or be stood down, and that accountability for the supplements crisis should rest with Essendon.

AFLPA CEO Matt Finnis says the on-going ASADA and AFL investigation into the Bombers' supplements program will determine if rules have been broken but has pointed the finger squarely at the Bombers as the ones responsible.

"Accountability must reside with those who had the ultimate authority and responsibility, and I think the public confidence in the competition and the codes and rules which govern it absolutely demands that," Finnis said on Wednesday.

"Quite clearly, there have been failings here at the club.

"Whilst players have a responsibility in relation to their part in this process, culpability must reside with those who had the ultimate authority; with those who's trust the players place in being able to guide them through what is an increasingly complex and highly regulated area."

Finnis said the AFLPA understood the Essendon players had done "everything they could" in taking positive steps to make sure the supplements they took last year were legal.

The players asked the club to put in writing what they were taking.

Finnis said the Bombers had "put the interests of performance ahead of the broader welfare of the playing group".

He also said the players were in "a very untenable situation" because of decisions made by the club.

As a result, he said it was hard to see how players could be punished for taking the banned supplement.

"We understand the concept of strict liability and personal responsibility, but I don't think we can also ignore the principals of fairness and justice," he said.

"Any system which would seek to place heavy penalties on somebody who has acted in accordance with the directions of their employer as they're required to do under their contract, and has been the victim of some kind of misrepresentation or even deception … would be completely unacceptable.

"That's why we'll continue to represent the players to avoid that situation arising."

"Jobe gave full and frank and honest answers," he said.

"Jobe's done a five-minute interview. There's been a five-month investigation. He's also co-operated with the investigation for two to three hours.

"All of the players have been thanked by ASADA, they've been congratulated for their openness, their candour and their co-operation.

"Given that we all want to get to the bottom of this, people should be encouraged by that."

It is understood that players who were at Essendon in 2012 but are no longer on the club's list received a text message from the AFLPA on Tuesday asking them not to comment on what they may have told investigators.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-06-26/blame-bombers-not-jobe
 
Damo80 said:
Re: timing of the bans, my understanding is that the findings are expected prior to the finals series, aren't they? It is on this assumption that I made the statement I did re: them surely not being allowed to play the remainder of the season - basically, what I'm saying is, surely the AFL (or WADA) won't say, "well, you're travelling pretty well in season 2013, so we'll let you play it out, then you can sit out pre-season, NAB Cup, and maybe the first month or two of season 2014...".
Click to expand...

Maybe. Or they impose a longer ban , to cover the off season, or they somehow split the ban.
 
Trent85 said:
THE AFL Players' Association says it is "premature and unfair" to suggest Jobe Watson should lose his Brownlow medal or be stood down, and that accountability for the supplements crisis should rest with Essendon.


http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-06-26/blame-bombers-not-jobe
Click to expand...

Nothing too new here really.

The club was always going to bear the responsibility for the systematic nature of what has gone on. It may not save the players from bans however.

Essendon are going to feel some pain, which is a great shame for their players, sponsors and members, who i have sympathy for. And those three groups should be absolutely furious at the club management that got them into this mess.
 
Trent85 said:
THE AFL Players' Association says it is "premature and unfair" to suggest Jobe Watson should lose his Brownlow medal or be stood down, and that accountability for the supplements crisis should rest with Essendon.

AFLPA CEO Matt Finnis says the on-going ASADA and AFL investigation into the Bombers' supplements program will determine if rules have been broken but has pointed the finger squarely at the Bombers as the ones responsible.

"Accountability must reside with those who had the ultimate authority and responsibility, and I think the public confidence in the competition and the codes and rules which govern it absolutely demands that," Finnis said on Wednesday.

"Quite clearly, there have been failings here at the club.

"Whilst players have a responsibility in relation to their part in this process, culpability must reside with those who had the ultimate authority; with those who's trust the players place in being able to guide them through what is an increasingly complex and highly regulated area."

Finnis said the AFLPA understood the Essendon players had done "everything they could" in taking positive steps to make sure the supplements they took last year were legal.

The players asked the club to put in writing what they were taking.

Finnis said the Bombers had "put the interests of performance ahead of the broader welfare of the playing group".

He also said the players were in "a very untenable situation" because of decisions made by the club.

As a result, he said it was hard to see how players could be punished for taking the banned supplement.

"We understand the concept of strict liability and personal responsibility, but I don't think we can also ignore the principals of fairness and justice," he said.

"Any system which would seek to place heavy penalties on somebody who has acted in accordance with the directions of their employer as they're required to do under their contract, and has been the victim of some kind of misrepresentation or even deception … would be completely unacceptable.

"That's why we'll continue to represent the players to avoid that situation arising."

"Jobe gave full and frank and honest answers," he said.

"Jobe's done a five-minute interview. There's been a five-month investigation. He's also co-operated with the investigation for two to three hours.

"All of the players have been thanked by ASADA, they've been congratulated for their openness, their candour and their co-operation.

"Given that we all want to get to the bottom of this, people should be encouraged by that."

It is understood that players who were at Essendon in 2012 but are no longer on the club's list received a text message from the AFLPA on Tuesday asking them not to comment on what they may have told investigators.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-06-26/blame-bombers-not-jobe
Click to expand...

The "Player vs Club" phase began on Monday night and has been continued by the AFLPA today..
 
Ron The Bear said:
Your captions, please. :)

151710-james-hird.jpg

James Hird after his press conference at Windy Hill. Picture: Wayne Ludbey (Herald Sun)
Click to expand...

The only possibly way Hird is going to be in the clear over this scandal.

OR

The two stages of Robbo Vision:

Stage 1. Before Happy Hour - See J. Hird
Stage 2: After Happy Hour - See rest of photo.
 
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