Is Hawthorn the best team ever

[Smedts_2]

Yeah they would have given us a run, although no more than the Swans or Freo IMO. However even that's conjecture, and while they may have beaten us occassionally if we played those teams against each other 10 times, I'd still be quite confident that over 10 battles the ledger would be tipped the Hawks way.

how about 11 times?

 

[Monkey King]

Yeah they would have given us a run, although no more than the Swans or Freo IMO ...

Nah. Collingwood were an absolute force. Much better than the Swans or Freo IMO. That they only got one flag from that time was an underperformance.

 

[Hawkk]

No St Kilda and Collingwood only a few years ago were better than Hawthorns 2013-2015. Either side would cream hawfs best list.

 

[Hawkk]

No they are not the best team ever ! Eagles always freeze in Melbourne , silly thread , move on

If the dogs run there old legs off this week I gather they are too old and washed up ?

How about we wait to September

Much like the 2002 Lions limping over a medicore Collingwood side that lost 10 games for the season. Horses for courses and all that

 

[MinerBoy]

Nah. Collingwood were an absolute force. Much better than the Swans or Freo IMO. That they only got one flag from that time was an underperformance.

In hindsight looking back at their team and results perhaps it was an over performance, or simply a team that had the pressure down for a short period of time but without the ability to maintain it.

I mean their 2011 team only just scraped over us and that team wasn't a patch on the team we put out over the 3peat years.

how about 11 times?

In the end none of this proves Hawks period is the greatest ever but it certainly doesn't prove why they aren't for the reasons that have been given. The Hawks lost to Cats 11 times and lost that narrow final to the Pies. However we weren't the side we were at our peak when we lost most of those matches and apparently the Pies and Cats were at their peaks. The Cats during their run were a class above us at that time yet despite that, and despite us being a long way short of the team we became through the 3peat, we still only narrowly and heart breakingly lost a great many of those games. And many of those games we clearly had the better of but hadn't yet developed the mental fortitude to over come the Cats. Those losses were as much mental as about the talent on the park.

So whether we are or we aren't the entire argument about strength of the competition is a great big myth. We were a lot better as a team during our 3 peat era than the previous years when the Pies and Cats were up there yet still managed to take it to them, and go through a season 18-4 ourselves at that time.

 

[Carnage]

I hate to say it but Port Magpies of the 50s are best ever.

Port won a national record six Grand Finals in a row from 1954 to 1959. The club had a win-loss-draw record of 105-16-1 (86%) over the six-year period. During the 1950s Port Adelaide and Melbourne, often the premiers of South Australian and Victorian leagues, played exhibition matches at Norwood Oval. The most notable game was the 1955 match with an estimated crowd of 23,000. The game being a thriller going down to the last 15 seconds with Frank Adams kicking a behind and sealing the game 9.11 (65) to 9.10 (64) in favour of Norm Smith's demons.[36][37] The following year Melbourne was full of praise for their cross border challenger with those in the Demons camp agreeing that "Port Adelaide could take their place in the V.F.L. competition and do themselves credit".[38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Adelaide_Football_Club

 

[Mercy Seat]

To give a serious post without poking the bear:

I support Geelong, but I use football to make money. I've made a lot of money betting on the football. I don't gamble on week to week, I bet over the season. By betting over the season you iron out the black swan events. You try and gamble week to week you'll have blown your cash by round 3. I tie the Brownlow into the Coleman into a range of premiers, minor premiers and teams to make the grand final. I also look for value I can cash out or hedge against later on in the year. I study every game and have had an extremely good rate of making money Brownlow night. Of the past 6 years the only year I have not made money is when priddis got up. He didn't come up on the system I use to screen Brownlow votes.

Last three years I've had one team to win the premiership. Hawthorn. Those years I haven't had them to win the minor premiership. Why? The draw. The draw in my view is designed to create a new top 4 each year. Why hasn't it worked? The lingering effect of the expansion teams. It's a pretty simple equation to work out why the league is weaker. For simplicity's sake let's say you have 20 teams with 40 players on the list. That's 800 people. Of that 40 players on each list 10 - 15 players won't make the grade. So that's 200 - 300 players per year that will have negible impact on the league. You bring in 2 new clubs where you are now adding an extra 80 players into the league. All that does is weaken the league by diluting an already questionable talent pool.

The impact of he compromised drafts are still being felt today. I'd also argue that the draft pools over the past few years have been very shallow with very little talent outside the top 10. I would rate this hawthorn team well below the team from 2008 - 2013. It's been a perfect storm for them which has allowed them to win. Every year they have filled in their holes by poaching talent from other teams. They get weaker and Hawks drop off marginally each year.

When i say this year the league is stronger, I'm talking about the competition and not the standard. For me there is 2 teams to many at the moment. There isn't enough good players to fill the rosters.

Anyway without going on too much:

Coleman

1. Kennedy wc - pretty easy choice. With the free style and lack of congestion this year he should score heavily. Is also durable having played 20 plus games the past 2 years.

2. Buddy - really as a back up as there isn't really much else I find of value out there.

Had Cameron as my second choice this year but 4 game suspension has ruled him out and the other one is lynch from gc. Willing to role the dice on him and not back him as I think he'll miss games through injury and suspension.

Brownlow:

1. Dangerfield - easy draw and will stand out at Geelong. Suspect Selwood won't be at his best until the mid point of the season due to lack of pre-season.

2. Mitchell - same reason as above, aside from the draw. Proven vote winner and will stand out at the Hawks.

I haven't backed Ablett as I think his best is gone and his body won't hold up for the year. Fyfe has been my go to for the past couple of years, have not backed him as I think his best work is done in congestion and that's no longer part of the game. I had freo to miss the 8 for the simple reason they can't score.

Top 4.

In no particular order.

1. Geelong - solely based on their draw. There is a reason it was ranked the easiest draw this year. If they can't make top 4 this years things have gone seriously, seriously wrong.
2. North Melbourne
3. Western Bulldogs
4. West coast

Hawks to knock on the door of top 4. This year I think age will be a factor and they'll fun out of legs. My roughy for the top 4 is gws. Play a game that is very suited to this football.

Hope that also answers your question cb16

Hard to believe this is the same poster who said some of the previous crap in this thread - but I suspect you were just stirring anyway.

Nonetheless, that's a well thought out rationale though I do respectfully disagree on a few points. The ladder has shifted as considerably as any other years with major swings between top and bottom teams - in fact if you look back 20 years - way more. This is in part due to the draw as you mentioned but also the natural swing of things and draft. The consistent bottom dwellers (ie Melbourne, Calrton) I don't suspect would be any better with a bunch more top draft picks (wasn't there a game a few years ago between blues dees with 10+ top 3 draft picks running around?).

I think the responsibility can be far more attributed to better organisational management and systems. Good people hiring good people, and Hawthorn and Swans do that best. Too many other clubs still hire based on history and mateship, and they've suffered as a result. It's no happy accident because of a shallow draft pool. And I'm happy to admit, better resources to attract and develop talent.

The other thing I'll pick you up on - Hawthorn today (well let's say last 3 years) would easily account for Hawthorn 2008-2012.

 

[Pessimistic]

I hate to say it but Port Magpies of the 50s are best ever.

Port won a national record six Grand Finals in a row from 1954 to 1959. The club had a win-loss-draw record of 105-16-1 (86%) over the six-year period. During the 1950s Port Adelaide and Melbourne, often the premiers of South Australian and Victorian leagues, played exhibition matches at Norwood Oval. The most notable game was the 1955 match with an estimated crowd of 23,000. The game being a thriller going down to the last 15 seconds with Frank Adams kicking a behind and sealing the game 9.11 (65) to 9.10 (64) in favour of Norm Smith's demons.[36][37] The following year Melbourne was full of praise for their cross border challenger with those in the Demons camp agreeing that "Port Adelaide could take their place in the V.F.L. competition and do themselves credit".[38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Adelaide_Football_Club

Hawthorn never played sanfl

 

[Carnage]

Hawthorn never played sanfl

Port Maggies never played VFL

 

[Pessimistic]

To give a serious post without poking the bear:

I support Geelong, but I use football to make money. I've made a lot of money betting on the football. I don't gamble on week to week, I bet over the season. By betting over the season you iron out the black swan events. You try and gamble week to week you'll have blown your cash by round 3. I tie the Brownlow into the Coleman into a range of premiers, minor premiers and teams to make the grand final. I also look for value I can cash out or hedge against later on in the year. I study every game and have had an extremely good rate of making money Brownlow night. Of the past 6 years the only year I have not made money is when priddis got up. He didn't come up on the system I use to screen Brownlow votes.

Last three years I've had one team to win the premiership. Hawthorn. Those years I haven't had them to win the minor premiership. Why? The draw. The draw in my view is designed to create a new top 4 each year. Why hasn't it worked? The lingering effect of the expansion teams. It's a pretty simple equation to work out why the league is weaker. For simplicity's sake let's say you have 20 teams with 40 players on the list. That's 800 people. Of that 40 players on each list 10 - 15 players won't make the grade. So that's 200 - 300 players per year that will have negible impact on the league. You bring in 2 new clubs where you are now adding an extra 80 players into the league. All that does is weaken the league by diluting an already questionable talent pool.

The impact of he compromised drafts are still being felt today. I'd also argue that the draft pools over the past few years have been very shallow with very little talent outside the top 10. I would rate this hawthorn team well below the team from 2008 - 2013. It's been a perfect storm for them which has allowed them to win. Every year they have filled in their holes by poaching talent from other teams. They get weaker and Hawks drop off marginally each year.

When i say this year the league is stronger, I'm talking about the competition and not the standard. For me there is 2 teams to many at the moment. There isn't enough good players to fill the rosters.

Anyway without going on too much:

Coleman

1. Kennedy wc - pretty easy choice. With the free style and lack of congestion this year he should score heavily. Is also durable having played 20 plus games the past 2 years.

2. Buddy - really as a back up as there isn't really much else I find of value out there.

Had Cameron as my second choice this year but 4 game suspension has ruled him out and the other one is lynch from gc. Willing to role the dice on him and not back him as I think he'll miss games through injury and suspension.

Brownlow:

1. Dangerfield - easy draw and will stand out at Geelong. Suspect Selwood won't be at his best until the mid point of the season due to lack of pre-season.

2. Mitchell - same reason as above, aside from the draw. Proven vote winner and will stand out at the Hawks.

I haven't backed Ablett as I think his best is gone and his body won't hold up for the year. Fyfe has been my go to for the past couple of years, have not backed him as I think his best work is done in congestion and that's no longer part of the game. I had freo to miss the 8 for the simple reason they can't score.

Top 4.

In no particular order.

1. Geelong - solely based on their draw. There is a reason it was ranked the easiest draw this year. If they can't make top 4 this years things have gone seriously, seriously wrong.
2. North Melbourne
3. Western Bulldogs
4. West coast

Hawks to knock on the door of top 4. This year I think age will be a factor and they'll fun out of legs. My roughy for the top 4 is gws. Play a game that is very suited to this football.

Hope that also answers your question cb16

you 'make money' but wait six months for a payday?

I disagree about the weakening of lists by the way. Even with two more clubs, the turnover of the players in the AFL as a whole is similar in total numbers as before the compromised drafts

 

[Pessimistic]

No St Kilda and Collingwood only a few years ago were better than Hawthorns 2013-2015. Either side would cream hawfs best list.

Did you see the Fox special on the all conquering saints? and Collingwood who specialize in losing grand finals - no wonder they drew

 

[Pessimistic]

Port Maggies never played VFL

And since both teams were AFL?

 

[Sttew]

When will people understand that Clarko comprehensively out coached Bomber in the 2008 Grand Final.

Comprehensively? You won, and you won well, but comprehensively? You don't think selfish play by a few Geelong footballers had some impact? Or grossly inaccurate kicking for goal, 34 scoring shots by Geelong to 25? Oh, wait, Geelong's twenty-three behinds included eleven deliberate rushed behinds by Hawthorn. So you see, there were other factors at play.

 

[HairyO]

Comprehensively? You won, and you won well, but comprehensively? You don't think selfish play by a few Geelong footballers had some impact? Or grossly inaccurate kicking for goal, 34 scoring shots by Geelong to 25? Oh, wait, Geelong's twenty-three behinds included eleven deliberate rushed behinds by Hawthorn. So you see, there were other factors at play.

Bomber admitted the entire club were far too ahead of themselves. They spent the weeks before the GF planning the post-GF celebrations, rather than focussing on actually winning. Which is what Clarko was focussed on.

What inspired tactics did Geelong bring to the table? We have covered Hawthorn enough times, so maybe you can list Geelong achievements in the GF?

 

[Sttew]

Bomber admitted the entire club were far too ahead of themselves. They spent the weeks before the GF planning the post-GF celebrations, rather than focussing on actually winning. Which is what Clarko was focussed on.

What inspired tactics did Geelong bring to the table? We have covered Hawthorn enough times, so maybe you can list Geelong achievements in the GF?

I agree totally with that assessment. Cats' got ahead of themselves, but to say Clarko comprehensively outcoached Bomber is what I question. If you're saying comprehensive = being focused, then yes.

 

[Samthegun]

IMO Geelong choked in 08. Cameron Mooney's miss before half time and I felt we were going to pull it off.
Same with Hawthorn (to a lesser degree) in 12. Choke-a-doke.
13,14,15 we were clear winners IMO.
This year we're going to play Geelong in the grand final and spank them off the park . Paddy who?

 

[Mitchell Madness]

What was Ports record when you smashed them at the G in the granny? Or does an MCG advantage only happen for hawthorn?

2007 biggest Bradbury of all time

Comprehensively? You won, and you won well, but comprehensively? You don't think selfish play by a few Geelong footballers had some impact? Or grossly inaccurate kicking for goal, 34 scoring shots by Geelong to 25? Oh, wait, Geelong's twenty-three behinds included eleven deliberate rushed behinds by Hawthorn. So you see, there were other factors at play.

Actually, you take out those rushed behinds cats fans still cry about, it was Geelong 23 - hawthorn 25

Geelong were selfish all yr
It was good coaching by Clarkson, to not let the players get sucked in, and poor by Thompson for letting it get to that stage

 

[H2F]

List of Clarko's premierships so far:

Geelong 2008 choked
Fremantle 2013 choked
Sydney 2014 choked
West Coast 2015 choked

Is it at all possible that they didn't choke but we're just beaten by a better team?

 

[Sttew]

. Paddy who?

The Paddy who averages 34 possessions against the Hawks.

 

[Samthegun]

The Paddy who averages 34 possessions against the Hawks.

Until the grand final.

 

[Samthegun]

List of Clarko's premierships so far:

Geelong 2008 choked
Fremantle 2013 choked
Sydney 2014 choked
West Coast 2015 choked

Is it at all possible that they didn't choke but we're just beaten by a better team?

I didn't say the opponent choked in 13 - 15. Only 08.

 

[Sttew]

Until the grand final.

How do you know. Untested. He is likely to get 44 in a GF

 

[Samthegun]

How do you know. Untested. He is likely to get 44 in a GF

You don't get humour.

 

[MadDawg]

The Paddy who averages 34 possessions against the Hawks.

How many of those did he get in a GF against us?

 

[Sttew]

You don't get humour.

Yes I do. Just because I didn't put a or or next to my comment!!