Is it time for a National Reserves League?

[MortlockWatcher]

It will kill the state leagues for sure. Having said that what supplementary players are going to be interested in playing for a footy club who have no interest in winning the comp they are in?
It is clear AFL clubs have no interest in second tier other than a development training ground, why would the AFL invest money in a lose money venture? It is a stupid idea having a seconds comp.
I actually think all AFL clubs seconds sides just organise games on a weekly basis with whoever, no points, no ladders, no finals. They don't care and the public won't either.
How are the crowds at the stand alone AFL seconds sides? Getting people to watch are they?

In general, crowds are down in the WAFL and SANFL and supporters in both states attribute it to having AFL Reserves sides.

Home Game Averages
Best was West Perth with 2613 in 2015
Peel Thunder - 1744 in 2014, 1776 in 2015 (24% up on 2012).
Cannot find East Perth crowds, but they would be about 4th at best (behind WP, SD and SF)

Venue Games High Low Total Average
Arena Joondalup 10 7849 1056 26126 2613
Bassendean Oval 10 3992 1344 20954 2095
East Fremantle Oval 9 7209 1051 19271 2141
Fremantle Oval 10 5060 1105 20624 2062
Lathlain Park 10 2965 1249 17618 1762
Leederville Oval 20 4021 0 37798 1890 (SUBI & E/P)
Mount Barker 1 2273 2273 2273 2273
Rushton Park 10 2044 1394 17764 1776
Showgrounds 9 1529 0 10474 1164
Subiaco Oval 1 5200 5200 5200 5200

Mind you some of the figures listed in the papers seem to be pumped up by at least a couple of hundred some weeks.

VFL crowds have never challenged WAFL/SANFL attendances and since the VFA's demise in 1995, the crowd figures are of no massive concern as a significant proportion of clubs are not the club's senior side. Only stand-alone teams like Frankston and Port Melbourne would be concerned with the gate money received as they don't have an AFL club subsidising their operations (staff, running costs, etc.).

 

[eth-dog]

It will kill the state leagues for sure. Having said that what supplementary players are going to be interested in playing for a footy club who have no interest in winning the comp they are in?
It is clear AFL clubs have no interest in second tier other than a development training ground, why would the AFL invest money in a lose money venture? It is a stupid idea having a seconds comp.
I actually think all AFL clubs seconds sides just organise games on a weekly basis with whoever, no points, no ladders, no finals. They don't care and the public won't either.
How are the crowds at the stand alone AFL seconds sides? Getting people to watch are they?

Did you see the Essendon-Footscray semi-final for the VFL? It was packed to the rafters.

Also, clubs not wanting to win their reserves league? Load of shit. Had Footscray win last year. Had Essendon finish top 4 this year in the VFL. Had Port Adelaide finish runners-up in the SANFL last year. Pretty sure East Perth did very well in the WAFL too. Brisbane won the NEAFL last year.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Did you see the Essendon-Footscray semi-final for the VFL? It was packed to the rafters.

Also, clubs not wanting to win their reserves league? Load of shit. Had Footscray win last year. Had Essendon finish top 4 this year in the VFL. Had Port Adelaide finish runners-up in the SANFL last year. Pretty sure East Perth did very well in the WAFL too. Brisbane won the NEAFL last year.

Did you see Peels side for their first ever final? Did you see Alastair Clarkson pull his best players off at half time in a grand final mind you and his side lost by a couple of points?
They play scratch matches mate, deal with it.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Did you see Peels side for their first ever final? Did you see Alastair Clarkson pull his best players off at half time in a grand final mind you and his side lost by a couple of points?
They play scratch matches mate, deal with it.

This

One afl official I spoke to basically said wins are a bonus in the vfl. It's all about development and getting the players to learn the structures and systems they must use when elevated to the afl

 

[MortlockWatcher]

This

One afl official I spoke to basically said wins are a bonus in the vfl. It's all about development and getting the players to learn the structures and systems they must use when elevated to the afl

So that confirms that AFL clubs don't care about their VFL side, just that they play like the senior side does for when players get promoted. Pity the poor top-up players brought into such a team.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

So that confirms that AFL clubs don't care about their VFL side, just that they play like the senior side does for when players get promoted. Pity the poor top-up players brought into such a team.

As sad as that is, that actually is exactly how it is.
And to be honest that's how it should be which is why there is no need for a comp just have a hit out every week which is all that matters.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So that confirms that AFL clubs don't care about their VFL side, just that they play like the senior side does for when players get promoted. Pity the poor top-up players brought into such a team.

They know they score, and they get paid and they get exposure at a higher level than they'd normally play

 

[footyfan1978]

Read about the idea of 10 Vic based clubs with their own league and then essentially 10 other VFA types club in another. A little similar to what I suggested some time earlier in this thread although I actually felt it should have a system where two stand alone VFA clubs such as Port Melbourne and Williamstown would play in the reserves league and make that a 12 team competition and 8 other VFA clubs in second division with the premier get promoted and the lower of the two VFA clubs in upper division relegated. I think it could work in long term in Victoria although I'm also open to the idea of a Southern Eastern league that includes reserves sides from Giants, Swans, Lions and Suns.

Article in today Herald-Sun about
Stand-alone AFL reserves league could return alongside 10-team VFA-style competition
December 2, 2015 8:00pm
JON RALPHHerald Sun

 

[LordLucifer]

I find it extremely ironic that there is talk now of an AFL reserves grade being formed.

Some years ago, the people in charge of the game, who also thought they were too clever by half decided to change the complete structure of the competition(s).

In the old days, the VFL had a senior grade, a reserves grade and an U/19 grade and it all worked beautifully and every club had a deeper list to develop players from.

Nek minnut, the reserves & the U/19's get booted, the VFA merges/morphs into the VFL and an U/18 grade is created. Why ??

Many a person has argued that the draft age is too young at 18 plus we have seen a reasonable drop off in overall consistency in player talent. In other words, the pool of quality senior players has got smaller.

I'm still bewildered as to why those in charge felt the need to change that winning format which served the VFL so well for near on 100-years yet here we are about to revert back to the way it was back then.

I can't wait for Mr. Magoo to take over from "Giggling Gil" now.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

VFA got railroaded out of existence by the AFL in 1995 and got absorbed into VSFL (aka AFL Reserves)

 

[Kwality]

Read about the idea of 10 Vic based clubs with their own league and then essentially 10 other VFA types club in another. A little similar to what I suggested some time earlier in this thread although I actually felt it should have a system where two stand alone VFA clubs such as Port Melbourne and Williamstown would play in the reserves league and make that a 12 team competition and 8 other VFA clubs in second division with the premier get promoted and the lower of the two VFA clubs in upper division relegated. I think it could work in long term in Victoria although I'm also open to the idea of a Southern Eastern league that includes reserves sides from Giants, Swans, Lions and Suns.

Article in today Herald-Sun about
Stand-alone AFL reserves league could return alongside 10-team VFA-style competition
December 2, 2015 8:00pm
JON RALPHHerald Sun

Who pays, did the journo aka the bloke who penned it, did he say how it was to be funded, will it be the equalisation fund, are Eagles members supposed to stump up clubs that cant/wont pay for it?

Bear in mind the AFL is projecting a loss of $22mil next year, is talking about a womens league & that will cost to get up - you can only spend more than you earn for a while ....

 

[footyfan1978]

Who pays, did the journo aka the bloke who penned it, did he say how it was to be funded,

No, the guy who penned it is Jon Ralph. I got no expectation of him going into details. He's a shit journo just looking for headlines to sell papers. What I read was more like a return to reserves league for Victorian based clubs. Did not sound like any WA based clubs would be involved. Sounded more a case of undoing the present state league situation here and returning more to what it was like in 1980's and early 90's when we still had reserves league.

I will be interested to see if anything comes of it. I hope so. I find the state league in Victoria is a mess and really serves no one well.

 

[Kwality]

No, the guy who penned it is Jon Ralph. I got no expectation of him going into details. He's a shit journo just looking for headlines to sell papers. What I read was more like a return to reserves league for Victorian based clubs. Did not sound like any WA based clubs would be involved. Sounded more a case of undoing the present state league situation here and returning more to what it was like in 1980's and early 90's when we still had reserves league.

I will be interested to see if anything comes of it. I hope so. I find the state league in Victoria is a mess and really serves no one well.

Most of the clubs simply cant afford it.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Even if the Vics do go ahead the games will rarely if ever be played as curtain raisers and the ones that are finish an hour or more before main game so people won't watch it anyway.
For the AFL to invest money in glorified scratch matches as opposed to the real second tier football would be irresponsible to say the least.
If ever there was a time for the stand alone clubs in the VFL, WAFL and SANFL to get together and put a plan in place to save themselves it is now, make no mistake the AFL will wipe them out totally and they will end up 3rd or 4th tier football.
Get as far away from the AFL and channel 7 and give yourself some chance of survival.
AFL clubs are greedy and selfish, they don't care or have any interest in other great traditional leagues unless they can run it. It probably is already to late, I cannot see the WAFL and SANFL being anything but amateur clubs within 10 years. Terrible for football but that would mean nothing to the AFL.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Even if the Vics do go ahead the games will rarely if ever be played as curtain raisers and the ones that are finish an hour or more before main game so people won't watch it anyway.
For the AFL to invest money in glorified scratch matches as opposed to the real second tier football would be irresponsible to say the least.
If ever there was a time for the stand alone clubs in the VFL, WAFL and SANFL to get together and put a plan in place to save themselves it is now, make no mistake the AFL will wipe them out totally and they will end up 3rd or 4th tier football.
Get as far away from the AFL and channel 7 and give yourself some chance of survival.
AFL clubs are greedy and selfish, they don't care or have any interest in other great traditional leagues unless they can run it. It probably is already to late, I cannot see the WAFL and SANFL being anything but amateur clubs within 10 years. Terrible for football but that would mean nothing to the AFL.

It's not a second tier como though, it's an over flow league for the surplus players

People bitch that the vfl/SANFL/wafl are messed up by having afl teams in them, but then we bitch when we try to take them out

If people want to watch community footy, they will watch the vfl and other state leagues. A stand alone reserves league would be of interest solely as a development league

 

[greatwhiteshark]

It's not a second tier como though, it's an over flow league for the surplus players

People bitch that the vfl/SANFL/wafl are messed up by having afl teams in them, but then we bitch when we try to take them out

If people want to watch community footy, they will watch the vfl and other state leagues. A stand alone reserves league would be of interest solely as a development league

I agree with that tiger, let them do that. No finals required, no broadcast needed, no media needed. Let the AFL clubs play their weekly development matches as they treat them. Don't try and turn it into the second tier of football at the expense or real leagues with real goals to have success.
If the Eagles want their seconds players together to work on their game plan and development then that's great. but don't try and pretend they are dinkum about winning so let's just have them play every week with zero at stake.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I agree with that tiger, let them do that. No finals required, no broadcast needed, no media needed. Let the AFL clubs play their weekly development matches as they treat them. Don't try and turn it into the second tier of football at the expense or real leagues with real goals to have success.
If the Eagles want their seconds players together to work on their game plan and development then that's great. but don't try and pretend they are dinkum about winning so let's just have them play every week with zero at stake.

You will always have media around it because people will want to watch

Tbh I think it's a different audience to that which supports a
Subiaco or Williamstown though, and I think getting rid of afl sides will make these comps better (all teams will be in it to win)

 

[The_Wookie]

If people want to watch community footy, they will watch the vfl and other state leagues. A stand alone reserves league would be of interest solely as a development league

Probably not as far as TV is concerned though, games featuring reserves sides generally outrate the games that dont feature them by a large margin. It was apparently a sore point with Seven in Adelaide when the SANFL featured so many games without either Adelaide or Ports reserves in 2015.

 

[The_Wookie]

You will always have media around it because people will want to watch

Im of the firm belief that the only reason there is a tv broadcast at all in WA and SA is because of the AFL reserves sides. Hell there was talk of broadcasting Adelaides reserve matches if they had been forced to compete in the amateurs at one point - its a condition of both Port and Adelaides reserve licenses that they assist with broadcast partners.

Tbh I think it's a different audience to that which supports a Subiaco or Williamstown though, and I think getting rid of afl sides will make these comps better (all teams will be in it to win)

From recent comments Port Melbourne and Williamstown prefer to remain with the AFL reserve sides. Seem to believe its better for their history, and they want to be involved in the development of players.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Im of the firm belief that the only reason there is a tv broadcast at all in WA and SA is because of the AFL reserves sides. Hell there was talk of broadcasting Adelaides reserve matches if they had been forced to compete in the amateurs at one point - its a condition of both Port and Adelaides reserve licenses that they assist with broadcast partners.



From recent comments Port Melbourne and Williamstown prefer to remain with the AFL reserve sides. Seem to believe its better for their history, and they want to be involved in the development of players.

I think you are correct about the broadcasting of WA and SA football but only as it is the AFL broadcast partner in channel 7.
Channel 9 and channel 10 were very interested in broadcasting the WAFL but could not get a meeting with the WAFC.
And before you ask what proof do I have it was made very clear when the West Perth saga with the nine news logo happened. Nine said many times in the press they could not even get a hearing at the WAFC.
The WAFL and SANFL still have an audience I believe but not with the seven network, it would have to be a network that is keen to promote what they are broadcasting.
Port Melbourne and Williamstown just want to stay in second tier footy, I don't think player development is their priority.

 

[footyfan1978]

You will always have media around it because people will want to watch

Tbh I think it's a different audience to that which supports a
Subiaco or Williamstown though, and I think getting rid of afl sides will make these comps better (all teams will be in it to win)

From recent comments Port Melbourne and Williamstown prefer to remain with the AFL reserve sides. Seem to believe its better for their history, and they want to be involved in the development of players.

I think the best of both worlds can happen in Victoria if they set it up right.

If we made it two divisions in Victoria and first division is mainly a reserves competition of 10 AFL Vic clubs reserve sides and 2 of the best VFA club I think that can work and still have your full 22 rounds with no byes and a 4 weeks final five system.
So in essence have 12 teams in Division One and 8 teams in Division Two which would be the remaining VFA clubs.

For the VFA clubs the premiership team from that division is promoted the next season into division one and the lowest team in division one, of the VFA clubs is relegated. Thereby you can have a club like Port Melbourne that prides itself of being stand alone and mixing it with the best of AFL reserves sides and giving those players a chance of putting their names in the spot light to still get drafted onto an AFL list.

If in time it works you leave it that way, if not then you go with the idea recommended of 10 reserve sides in one comp and 10 VFA clubs in different competition.

There certainly was a time in Victoria when all AFL clubs had reserve sides, under 19's and the VFA had two divisions and they all filled a niche for what different football supporters enjoyed. So I cannot see why we could not revert to reserves style league and a division two for VFA and live side by side with people wanting to see curtain raisers to AFL teams getting them 10 to 15 times a year and those that just want to follow their Sandringham or Coburg teams in VFA as a community side can get that in the division two. I really hope they do something like that. I never really liked the way it has been for last 15 to 20 years.

 

[Mkcaptain]

Looks like its coming

 

[1990crow]

Looks like its coming

Would be awesome and for it to be televised. Would watch.

 

[barrackers]

Looks like its coming

"...to trial rules as much as anything". Great

 

[telsor]

Looks like its coming

I imagine the WAFL & SANFL bosses are having conniptions right about now.