Analysis Is Leppa the Right Man for the Job?

[Skoob]

I heard he ate a tuna sandwich once, before a game. I mean who does that?

 

[dlanod]

I heard he ate a tuna sandwich once, before a game. I mean who does that?

I thought that was a bit fishy.

 

[James North]

I have seen this argument before and it is a cop out IMV.

Carlton senior players (our 'equivalent' in brackets): Murphy (Rich), Gibbs (Beams), Kreuzer (Martin), Walker (Rockliff) , Simpson (Hanley), Jamison (Merrett), Tuohy (Christensen), White (Lester), Curnow (Bewick), Armfield (Zorko). Plus we have Robinson and Bastinac who I haven't mentioned. They have Casboult, Thomas and Everitt.

Where Carlton have gone past us is undoubtedly getting more out of their role players. We have an inability to develop players to come in and play a role and this is, by far the biggest failure of this coaching staff so far. Youth it always going to take a little while to get going but we have been unable to develop strategies to carry the load in the meantime. I suspect this is purely game plan related. Carlton look to be playing to a structure and a shared philosophy where as our game plan looks much more chaotic at times.

In terms of youth, our keys are generally our youngest players which has undoubtedly made things harder. But Carltons experienced keys aren't exactly world beaters - Jamison, White, Casboult, Everitt, Rowe, Jones plus Weitering as a young KPD. Don't think they are the difference between being us and being an okay team.

I think it's a cop out to say 'look at Carlton' generally because they have different issues and different facilities to us.

I also think it's a cop out to blame Leppitsch for everything that's wrong.

If we had the resources of Carlton, I'd be definitely fully blaming the coach.

 

[SizeMatters]

Come on... you have to give credit to Bolton for turning Carlton around. Bolton has managed to get the senior players to play career best footy. That's good coaching in anyone's books. Leppa on the other hand is getting the senior players playing at a poorer level than last season and the year before. The senior players are the core of any AFL team and Leppa just can't connect with them.

 

[Football Pope]

Come on... you have to give credit to Bolton for turning Carlton around. Bolton has managed to get the senior players to play career best footy. That's good coaching in anyone's books. Leppa on the other hand is getting the senior players playing at a poorer level than last season and the year before. The senior players are the core of any AFL team and Leppa just can't connect with them.

So who are these senior players Leppa can't connect with?

 

[Happy_Neale]

I think it's a cop out to say 'look at Carlton' generally because they have different issues and different facilities to us.

I also think it's a cop out to blame Leppitsch for everything that's wrong.

If we had the resources of Carlton, I'd be definitely fully blaming the coach.

I think it is more a cop out to just say 'look at their draft picks' than to actually see what they are doing differently on field. Obviously comparing two teams is never going to be exact but surely it can be used to see and acknowledge where we need to improve.

Coaching staff implies more than just Leppitsch, although he is obviously the one who will come under most scrutiny. Facilities are a nice to have, but I don't see West Coast struggling badly on the field because of it.

Honestly think the facilities and resources angle is so over-played it isn't funny. If we had the Lexus centre or whatever it's called these days, would we have won more than one game? Doubtful.

 

[Skoob]

I thought that was a bit fishy.

 

[13Beast]

So who are these senior players Leppa can't connect with?

Maybe it's not Leppa being unable to connect with these senior players, but their lack of effort (and lack of perceived talent too) is now being exposed.

 

[James North]

I think it is more a cop out to just say 'look at their draft picks' than to actually see what they are doing differently on field. Obviously comparing two teams is never going to be exact but surely it can be used to see and acknowledge where we need to improve.

Coaching staff implies more than just Leppitsch, although he is obviously the one who will come under most scrutiny. Facilities are a nice to have, but I don't see West Coast struggling badly on the field because of it.

Honestly think the facilities and resources angle is so over-played it isn't funny. If we had the Lexus centre or whatever it's called these days, would we have won more than one game? Doubtful.

This is where things separate for people ... as has been said a number of times.

I think it's doubtful a different coach would get different results and think that having things like full time psych, full football department spend (less stuff for Leppa to take on), better training and social facilities etc would make a bigger difference ...

But also if GWS and GCS didn't exist when we bottomed out our list may have some more talent.

I'm also not convinced our senior players who look great on paper aren't just cruising.

Either way, I'm not suggesting Leppa is perfect or even good. I just think there are other factors at play that create a bunch of uncertainty in my mind, and there's a bit of 'perfect storm' in it too.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I think it is more a cop out to just say 'look at their draft picks' than to actually see what they are doing differently on field. Obviously comparing two teams is never going to be exact but surely it can be used to see and acknowledge where we need to improve.

Coaching staff implies more than just Leppitsch, although he is obviously the one who will come under most scrutiny. Facilities are a nice to have, but I don't see West Coast struggling badly on the field because of it.

Honestly think the facilities and resources angle is so over-played it isn't funny. If we had the Lexus centre or whatever it's called these days, would we have won more than one game? Doubtful.

Facilities are more about retention and recruitment.

 

[Happy_Neale]

Facilities are more about retention and recruitment.

No doubt, James and I were discussing the on-field performances of the two sides this season though.

This is where things separate for people ... as has been said a number of times.

I think it's doubtful a different coach would get different results and think that having things like full time psych, full football department spend (less stuff for Leppa to take on), better training and social facilities etc would make a bigger difference ...

But also if GWS and GCS didn't exist when we bottomed out our list may have some more talent.

I'm also not convinced our senior players who look great on paper aren't just cruising.

Either way, I'm not suggesting Leppa is perfect or even good. I just think there are other factors at play that create a bunch of uncertainty in my mind, and there's a bit of 'perfect storm' in it too.

I have never argued any of this. More the fact that people tend to take the easy out of 'look at our facilities' etc. Draft picks are also just one part of the picture but people tend to get carried away looking at how many top picks a team has, IMV they do not explain performance anywhere near the full extent because high and low picks alike need proper development, coaching etc. and if a team doesn't have this for their players they are destined to fail.

The difference in opinion is whether you think Leppa might succeed to some extent despite these differences or not. At the moment, there is precious little to say he is a competent coach, even ignoring facilities, expansion sides, injuries and a supposed fractured playing group. I don't think you can just say there is uncertainty so he should stay on as head coach.

Personally, I think our on-field performance holds a lot of clues, mainly our lack of structure and inability to stick to a game plan for more than a couple of weeks at a time.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

This is where things separate for people ... as has been said a number of times.

I think it's doubtful a different coach would get different results and think that having things like full time psych, full football department spend (less stuff for Leppa to take on), better training and social facilities etc would make a bigger difference ...

But also if GWS and GCS didn't exist when we bottomed out our list may have some more talent.

I'm also not convinced our senior players who look great on paper aren't just cruising.

Either way, I'm not suggesting Leppa is perfect or even good. I just think there are other factors at play that create a bunch of uncertainty in my mind, and there's a bit of 'perfect storm' in it too.

While I think all the issues you have identified will make us a better club once resolved, if our players are 'cruising' because we lack those things then clearly we have drafted players of the wrong character. Truly professional players will go out and give their all regardless of the circumstances and indeed will dig even deeper the tougher it gets. Our senior players aren't remotely close to doing that. I prefer to think that rather than the players collectively lacking character, they lack buy-in and while it's not all Leppa's fault, the largest part of it probably is. I firmly believe a better coach would get more out of this group. The question for me is when is the right time to make the change. It may well be that the AFL effectively takes that decision and its timing out of our hands by tying further financial assistance to a clean out of the senior coach and other high profile positions.

 

[Football Pope]

Maybe it's not Leppa being unable to connect with these senior players, but their lack of effort (and lack of perceived talent too) is now being exposed.

Maybe....Not sure that it is a lack of effort from the senior players..IMO we look at individuals and expect them to do more. IMO, a few of the senior players are playing injured....Saturday, we started clicking as a team, in patches...The younger guys were making their direct opposition accountable. The run and carry was there.....And there was movement in the forward line... we were hitting targets ..and our senior guys weren't being double teamed.. No other way to say it ..We are crap!! I can see improvement ..Unsure of the value in pointing the finger and saying they are categorically to blame...

 

[James North]

No doubt, James and I were discussing the on-field performances of the two sides this season though.



I have never argued any of this. More the fact that people tend to take the easy out of 'look at our facilities' etc. Draft picks are also just one part of the picture but people tend to get carried away looking at how many top picks a team has, IMV they do not explain performance anywhere near the full extent because high and low picks alike need proper development, coaching etc. and if a team doesn't have this for their players they are destined to fail.

The difference in opinion is whether you think Leppa might succeed to some extent despite these differences or not. At the moment, there is precious little to say he is a competent coach, even ignoring facilities, expansion sides, injuries and a supposed fractured playing group. I don't think you can just say there is uncertainty so he should stay on as head coach.

Personally, I think our on-field performance holds a lot of clues, mainly our lack of structure and inability to stick to a game plan for more than a couple of weeks at a time.

I think our on-field performances are a lot to do with the list - so again, just a different view.

Probably the other thing I'd say is that if Leppitsch had've taken over at Geelong when Chris Scott did, I think he would've done well.

i.e., the setup is better and the list is better.

 

[lioninthesand]

I think it's a cop out to say 'look at Carlton' generally because they have different issues and different facilities to us.

I also think it's a cop out to blame Leppitsch for everything that's wrong.

If we had the resources of Carlton, I'd be definitely fully blaming the coach.

I agree, as is using GWS in their first year to excuse our current performance.

 

[Happy_Neale]

I think our on-field performances are a lot to do with the list - so again, just a different view.

Probably the other thing I'd say is that if Leppitsch had've taken over at Geelong when Chris Scott did, I think he would've done well.

i.e., the setup is better and the list is better.

Well you would hope he would have done well with the grand final runners up. I don't think anyone is expecting a flag any time soon in the same way Geelong would not have been expecting to finish last in 2013. Not really a fair comparison. Someone like the Blues would ironically have been better but we've already gone there.

The list is much better than what we are showing at the minute, no doubt in my mind.

 

[Schraderbrau]

Everyone said the Carlton list was worse than ours before the start of the season. We are worse than Essendon at the moment with their top up players that is how bad we are, it isn't a talent thing it is purely because they don't care and our coaching is pathetic.

The simple fact is our defence is pathetic and that means we are applying no pressure in the midfield

It depends from which perspective you look at it. Carlton's long term outlook is worse than Briabanes but they do have better senior players. They've also made an effort to be as competitive as possible this season in order to change the culture.

In Brisbane's case I think they're senior players are a fair bit worse but the long term outlook is substantially better because (a) you have a lot more good young players on your list and (b) you are getting senior games into most of them straight away and that's the best form of development imo. Further, by giving so many untested players games you are finding out who has a future earlier and can adjust the list accordingly

With the bolded I think its a case that the defence is rendered ineffective by the fact that the forwards and midfielders don't put any pressure on the ball carrier.

 

[Schraderbrau]

Come on... you have to give credit to Bolton for turning Carlton around. Bolton has managed to get the senior players to play career best footy. That's good coaching in anyone's books. Leppa on the other hand is getting the senior players playing at a poorer level than last season and the year before. The senior players are the core of any AFL team and Leppa just can't connect with them.

Bolton is delaying the inevitable and that will really hurt them long term because the more time they waste the less likely their core like Gibbs, Murphy, Thomas, Kreuzer etc will be around when they are competitive. That is three drafts worth of players they will lose before they are competitive.

On the other hand Brisbane's current group of quality players is smaller and younger. You lose Hanley and Martin but there's a good chance Rockliffe, Rich, Zorko and Beams are all about and useful in 3-4 years time. Other than a young ruck, you also have a spine which is the hard work of a rebuild and drafting out of the way. Because of Schache, Hipwood, Gardiner, Andrews, McStay you can start stockpiling midfielders for the next couple of years and they will be right to go just when the key position players peak imo. Carlton have very few quality young key position options imo, especially if you consider Weitering as more a 3rd tall/half back flanker type which is what I think he'll end up because of his value as a rebounder

 

[13Beast]

While I think all the issues you have identified will make us a better club once resolved, if our players are 'cruising' because we lack those things then clearly we have drafted players of the wrong character. Truly professional players will go out and give their all regardless of the circumstances and indeed will dig even deeper the tougher it gets. Our senior players aren't remotely close to doing that. I prefer to think that rather than the players collectively lacking character, they lack buy-in and while it's not all Leppa's fault, the largest part of it probably is. I firmly believe a better coach would get more out of this group. The question for me is when is the right time to make the change. It may well be that the AFL effectively takes that decision and its timing out of our hands by tying further financial assistance to a clean out of the senior coach and other high profile positions.

Actually, I think it may work out the other way. The AFL wading in to help us (which isn't a question of if, more a question of when), coupled with our poor record, poor retention, and somewhat turbulent coaching history over the past number of years, then I think stability is what the AFL will want to give us. This could come in the form of financial aid, PPs etc, but I dare say they may also include stipulations that a senior coaching change is NOT something that should be first cab off the rank.

Regardless of what will take place behind closed doors when the AFL steps in, the Lions will certainly not be stoking these fires by going off and sacking Leppa prior to any AFL decision on rendering assistance just yet. His job is quite safe right now, as all these woes the club is in are much easier to plead for assistance with rather than the board going out and hanging yet another senior coach from the nearest lamp post. We all know there is some reluctance on the part of the AFL to step in (perhaps deliberation is a better word), and the last thing the club will want is for the AFL to frown down upon a decision to sack the senior coach just now, with considering all the other difficulties the club is facing at present, could seem a foolish and rash decision, and certainly not one that will help bring stability to the club in the immediate future, rather, quite the opposite.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

Actually, I think it may work out the other way. The AFL wading in to help us (which isn't a question of if, more a question of when), coupled with our poor record, poor retention, and somewhat turbulent coaching history over the past number of years, then I think stability is what the AFL will want to give us. This could come in the form of financial aid, PPs etc, but I dare say they may also include stipulations that a senior coaching change is NOT something that should be first cab off the rank.

Regardless of what will take place behind closed doors when the AFL steps in, the Lions will certainly not be stoking these fires by going off and sacking Leppa prior to any AFL decision on rendering assistance just yet. His job is quite safe right now, as all these woes the club is in are much easier to plead for assistance with rather than the board going out and hanging yet another senior coach from the nearest lamp post. We all know there is some reluctance on the part of the AFL to step in (perhaps deliberation is a better word), and the last thing the club will want is for the AFL to frown down upon a decision to sack the senior coach just now, with considering all the other difficulties the club is facing at present, could seem a foolish and rash decision, and certainly not one that will help bring stability to the club in the immediate future, rather, quite the opposite.

You may well be right - we're all speculating of course. But I seem to recall the AFL were reportedly not happy when we extended Leppa's contract until the end of next year.

 

[Ironmonger]

Actually, I think it may work out the other way. The AFL wading in to help us (which isn't a question of if, more a question of when), coupled with our poor record, poor retention, and somewhat turbulent coaching history over the past number of years, then I think stability is what the AFL will want to give us. This could come in the form of financial aid, PPs etc, but I dare say they may also include stipulations that a senior coaching change is NOT something that should be first cab off the rank.

Regardless of what will take place behind closed doors when the AFL steps in, the Lions will certainly not be stoking these fires by going off and sacking Leppa prior to any AFL decision on rendering assistance just yet. His job is quite safe right now, as all these woes the club is in are much easier to plead for assistance with rather than the board going out and hanging yet another senior coach from the nearest lamp post. We all know there is some reluctance on the part of the AFL to step in (perhaps deliberation is a better word), and the last thing the club will want is for the AFL to frown down upon a decision to sack the senior coach just now, with considering all the other difficulties the club is facing at present, could seem a foolish and rash decision, and certainly not one that will help bring stability to the club in the immediate future, rather, quite the opposite.

That makes sense.

Plus the AFL would probably generally prefer clubs honoured their contracts.

 

[Gadzorks]

This is where things separate for people ... as has been said a number of times.

I think it's doubtful a different coach would get different results and think that having things like full time psych, full football department spend (less stuff for Leppa to take on), better training and social facilities etc would make a bigger difference ...

But also if GWS and GCS didn't exist when we bottomed out our list may have some more talent.

I'm also not convinced our senior players who look great on paper aren't just cruising.

Either way, I'm not suggesting Leppa is perfect or even good. I just think there are other factors at play that create a bunch of uncertainty in my mind, and there's a bit of 'perfect storm' in it too.

Full time physic would make a massive difference. Mitch robbo said earlier this year working with a physc had been a major part in his improvement on and off the field. Imagine if we got that level of improvement from all our or senior players.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

Actually, I think it may work out the other way. The AFL wading in to help us (which isn't a question of if, more a question of when), coupled with our poor record, poor retention, and somewhat turbulent coaching history over the past number of years, then I think stability is what the AFL will want to give us. This could come in the form of financial aid, PPs etc, but I dare say they may also include stipulations that a senior coaching change is NOT something that should be first cab off the rank.

Regardless of what will take place behind closed doors when the AFL steps in, the Lions will certainly not be stoking these fires by going off and sacking Leppa prior to any AFL decision on rendering assistance just yet. His job is quite safe right now, as all these woes the club is in are much easier to plead for assistance with rather than the board going out and hanging yet another senior coach from the nearest lamp post. We all know there is some reluctance on the part of the AFL to step in (perhaps deliberation is a better word), and the last thing the club will want is for the AFL to frown down upon a decision to sack the senior coach just now, with considering all the other difficulties the club is facing at present, could seem a foolish and rash decision, and certainly not one that will help bring stability to the club in the immediate future, rather, quite the opposite.

As a postscript to my earlier response, I have just read the post quoting the sporting news article to the effect that keeping Leppa is an AFL priority which supports your take on things. Interesting times.

 

[Ironmonger]

Full time physic would make a massive difference. Mitch robbo said earlier this year working with a physc had been a major part in his improvement on and off the field. Imagine if we got that level of improvement from all our or senior players.

You've probably misspelt physio, but it would be much more fun if you've actually misspelt psychic.

 

[_Gin]

You've probably misspelt physio, but it would be much more fun if you've actually misspelt psychic.

I was leaning towards psych as in psychologist which would be nice to have. But my first thought was physicist which we also don't have one of. I'm pretty sure we just share a magic 8-ball for our psychic requirements. Club really needs to improve its facilities!