Analysis Is Leppa the Right Man for the Job?

[Happy_Neale]

I mentioned a couple in my original post. Standing in the coaching box (and what that supposedly means)... he's lost the players etc.

Lol oh. Yeah seems silly to resort to that when you could probably build a pretty compelling case without it.

 

[Skoob]

Age old question isn't it, was the coach not able to get the best out of a player or was the player unable to give it?
At the end of the day, there are senior players on big $$$$ not performing. The players must take responsibility for their own efforts and behaviour.

Some players have been giving their all. Those players do it week in week out. Are we to believe those players are being coached differently or by a different coach?

 

[POBT]

I find it a whole lot easier to swallow that it is both coach and player(s) at fault rather than a binary view that it is one or the other.

Consequently, I find myself more supportive of people proposing that the club take action on both fronts. I think it is completely untenable that we sack Rockliff and leave Leppitsch in place. I cannot support that. Equally though, I'm not convinced that I can support sacking Leppitsch and retaining Rockliff without the latter accepting that significant change needs to occur.

In my mind, both may well need to go for us to move forward.

 

[lioninthesand]

I find it a whole lot easier to swallow that it is both coach and player(s) at fault rather than a binary view that it is one or the other.

Consequently, I find myself more supportive of people proposing that the club take action on both fronts. I think it is completely untenable that we sack Rockliff and leave Leppitsch in place. I cannot support that. Equally though, I'm not convinced that I can support sacking Leppitsch and retaining Rockliff without the latter accepting that significant change needs to occur.

In my mind, both may well need to go for us to move forward.

Great post.

 

[Last of the Roys]

Here we go again with blanket defences of Rockliff followed by shovelling it all back on to Leppa....

Hmm... Just providing a short, overly reductionist and dismissive summary of an argument doesn't really constitute much of a counterpoint does it?

I don't see you condemning the "kernels of truth" about Leppa that "snowball into damning indictments". The conclusions that have been drawn about a bloke standing up in the coaches box... holy shit. Let alone the categoric declarations that he has "lost the players"... based on what? The mass re-signings?

Again, I get that you are frustrated that people aren't comfortable disclosing the full details on what they've heard on Rockliff. I'd be frustrated too. The number of PMs I receive makes that clear. But it's not nothing. And you'll have to forgive some of us for being very afraid than another coach (who I note isn't entirely blameless) is about the carry the whole can for much wider failings in the football club, while certain movers and shakers in the playing group escape any scrutiny yet again.

You said a win can wallpaper over cracks. So can sacking a coach. If done the wrong way it can just delay the wider reforms needed to really turn the joint around. Why are people so afraid to look deeper? Do they just crave the short term, warm cosy valium hit that a coach sacking will provide without having to stomach the thought that some of our sacred cows have gone astray from the herd? As for seeing the same shit play out again for the next guy... well that's a problem for "future us" right?

TBD you can really be unbelievably condescending and arrogant in your dismissive responses sometimes. It does little to move the argument forward or create a great environment for real discussion in the Lions BigFooty forum.

By the way I understand that you are also very passionate about the Lions and that is great - we need all the passionate supporters we can get.

And I also understand your viewpoint on this issue - but I still don't agree with it.

 

[Nunez]

I find it a whole lot easier to swallow that it is both coach and player(s) at fault rather than a binary view that it is one or the other.

Consequently, I find myself more supportive of people proposing that the club take action on both fronts. I think it is completely untenable that we sack Rockliff and leave Leppitsch in place. I cannot support that. Equally though, I'm not convinced that I can support sacking Leppitsch and retaining Rockliff without the latter accepting that significant change needs to occur.

In my mind, both may well need to go for us to move forward.

I agree with all you've said for the most part, but part of me really wants to see Leppa coach next year. For me Rock is gone, so it comes down to whether the players and admin back Leppa 100%.

 

[Bucking Beads]

I find it a whole lot easier to swallow that it is both coach and player(s) at fault rather than a binary view that it is one or the other.

Consequently, I find myself more supportive of people proposing that the club take action on both fronts. I think it is completely untenable that we sack Rockliff and leave Leppitsch in place. I cannot support that. Equally though, I'm not convinced that I can support sacking Leppitsch and retaining Rockliff without the latter accepting that significant change needs to occur.

In my mind, both may well need to go for us to move forward.

I think you are probably right but we've had a lot of our younger guys sign on under Leppa. If they are buying in maybe he should be kept for another year.

 

[POBT]

I agree with all you've said for the most part, but part of me really wants to see Leppa coach next year. For me Rock is gone, so it comes down to whether the players and admin back Leppa 100%.

I think people tend to support players over coaches. That is often due to emotional ties, particularly if the coach has never won anything for the club. I fear the supporter response if we were to sack Rockliff and retain Leppa.

 

[POBT]

TBD you can really be unbelievably condescending and arrogant in your dismissive responses sometimes. It does little to move the argument forward or create a great environment for real discussion in the Lions BigFooty forum.

Agree. It isn't helpful.

But if we are offering up honest appraisals of posting style, finding the most ludicrous counter-point to your argument and responding to those is equally damaging to a quality debate. Disregarding any information, real or rumoured, that does not fit your narrative does not help.

 

[Nunez]

I think people tend to support players over coaches. That is often due to emotional ties, particularly if the coach has never won anything for the club. I fear the supporter response if we were to sack Rockliff and retain Leppa.

Ah I see your point there, that is a shame. Leppa would almost be the media scapegoat to protect the players. Bleh.

 

[lioninthesand]

I think people tend to support players over coaches. That is often due to emotional ties, particularly if the coach has never won anything for the club. I fear the supporter response if we were to sack Rockliff and retain Leppa.

I honestly think its a symptom of democracy as deep as that sounds LOL. Generally we have come to accept that if a collective is dissatisfied - then it is assumed the leader or single figure in charge has to be wrong.

The same gets applied to Footy, this whole notion of sack the players and keep the coach is a world first.

It has gotten to the point now where some want Leppa gone, and others (given it's now two coaches in a row to face the same fate) want senior players to go with him - which is fair, it's gotten beyond an argument about who is wrong and now the debate has become a round table negotitation around who gets let go. LOL

Only issue I have with the player argument is, on the one hand 'list turnover' is used to excuse leppas failures, yet on the other it is said the same team and same cultural issues, has done the same thing to Leppa as it did to Voss, hard to have it both ways.

Though I agree, if Leppa goes - the next coach has to be prepared to do a Heath Shaw with some of our biggest assets.

Either way I have a holiday booked to the Gabba for The Cats game and I want a bloody refund I tells ya!

 

[POBT]

Only issue I have with the player argument is, on the one hand 'list turnover' is used to excuse leppas failures, yet on the other it is said the same team and same cultural issues, has done the same thing to Leppa as it did to Voss, hard to have it both ways.

It is possible that it is the part of the list that wasn't turned over that has caused the problem for both coaches. That certainly narrows it down (assuming it is true).

 

[Hollow Knight]

I think people tend to support players over coaches. That is often due to emotional ties, particularly if the coach has never won anything for the club. I fear the supporter response if we were to sack Rockliff and retain Leppa.

Yep, this is the real tricky position we find ourselves in. The right decision might be incredibly hard to sell. It must be really tempting to take the path of least resistance in order to make the least waves. That could be the path to perpetual irrelevance.

The public relations hit is one side, then there is the tangible effects on attendance, membership, revenue etc. Collingwood have the financial and membership safety net to ride out a "5 steps back to go 10 forward" plan, as well as the media connections and influence to sell that vision to their punters. We don't. But at some point, years of just plodding along, making the safe calls and getting nowhere is equally damaging to the brand.

Can't help but feel at some point, we will have to present a massive pitch for major reform to the AFL and beg them to financially underwrite it.

 

[harvester]

Judging by every ones opinions I think there may be some surprises at the end of the season.

 

[wantok]

Goodbye Rocky.He's checked out mentally and has his eyes on greener pastures it seems. Would have his mate Reddo in his ear and his Player Manager telling him to hold us to ransom.We should get a first round pick if we trade this year or he hangs around stirring the pot for another year and then leaves via PSD for nothing i believe. If the inuendo on this site has any substance he should not be Captain. Green can go as well.It seems to me that the bullets are being fired by Player Managers of the unsigned players. If the players concerned are feeding them this crap they are letting down their teammates and supporters and we would all be better of without them. Extended adversity certainly exposes the bed wetters.

 

[Skoob]

I find it a whole lot easier to swallow that it is both coach and player(s) at fault rather than a binary view that it is one or the other.Consequently, I find myself more supportive of people proposing that the club take action on both fronts. I think it is completely untenable that we sack Rockliff and leave Leppitsch in place. I cannot support that. Equally though, I'm not convinced that I can support sacking Leppitsch and retaining Rockliff without the latter accepting that significant change needs to occur.
In my mind, both may well need to go for us to move forward.

I fear that might be throwing the baby out with the bath water. It could be worse than keeping both. Quite the conundrum.

 

[Kevvo]

I think people tend to support players over coaches. That is often due to emotional ties, particularly if the coach has never won anything for the club. I fear the supporter response if we were to sack Rockliff and retain Leppa.

You're most likely right, but I can't help wondering whether the members who still care (largely die-hards) have long enough memories to remember how things were when Voss got punted as well. Leppitsch at least has the banked emotional credits of being a playerthrough the club's golden era in terms of the fans' affection.

It could be naïve/optimistic of me, but I'm more worried about the sponsors' reactions than the fans. Their memories are shorter and horizons usually more immediate. That problem could be addressed with AFL backing, but that's a big ask I guess.

 

[Happy_Neale]

Agree. It isn't helpful.

But if we are offering up honest appraisals of posting style, finding the most ludicrous counter-point to your argument and responding to those is equally damaging to a quality debate. Disregarding any information, real or rumoured, that does not fit your narrative does not help.

We are pretty quick around here to dismiss articles with no quotes or references from staff at the club. I see no reason why this should be much different, even if we have reason to believe there may be some truth to it. It should be reasonable that people would like something a little more concrete and I don't think this should be considered disregarding information.

 

[Ironmonger]

I agree that Last of the Roys ' posts haven't been simplistic, and I don't want to speak for Always a Lion , but there's one important thing in my view that separates the two perspectives (it's Rocky vs it's Leppitsch).

This feels a lot like the mess that happened in the year leading up to Voss going. Interestingly, the sense I got from the players who left (Yeo and Polec especially IIRC) and Mayes more recently was that they felt pretty close to Voss. I was a bit surprised by that, because I had assumed their departure may have precipitated Voss's. At the time, I was inclined to think that the rumored issues with the remaining players were overstated and that Voss had his chance.

However, that cycle seems to be repeating itself, notwithstanding that we've done a better job at locking in the young players. I have resilient confidence that Leigh Matthews and Jonathan Brown are both well equipped to assess Leppitsch's coaching abilities, and both have been strong and consistent in their support for him. As far as I can tell, Rockliff's greatest support as a leader has come from Leppitsch.

From the outside looking in, I have no doubt that my opinion reflects my cognitive biases. But to me, it feels like Rockliff has been at the centre of more issues for a longer time, embellished as they may have been in the reporting.

I think I see where you're coming from, but the issues under Leppitsch feel somewhat different to the issues under Voss. I can further detail that if you like but it's probably not all that relevant to the discussion.

And I don't really see why Rockliff would be at the centre of the issues we faced with Voss as coach. Rockliff wasn't captain then, although he was a member of the leadership group.

For that matter, I really don't see why Rockliff would be at the centre of the issues under Leppitsch. The scope of a captain's role is nowhere near that of a coach. There's a broader debate going about what assumptions we can make about Leppitsch v Rockliff but the key difference is that a coach is supposed to be responsible for the team's overall performance, including whether the team is reaching its potential, how the younger players are developing, and how the gameplan is functioning. A captain's responsibility is more difficult to define.

It's also worth remembering that Leppitsch has quite deliberately been moving on players from our 2013 leadership group. Rockliff, Zorko and Hanley are the only ones left. Brown retired, of course, but deliberate decisions were made about Golby, Redden and Adcock. I'm not entirely sure what the duties of the leadership group are but I am sure they'd be harder to fulfil with fewer leaders around.

 

[lioninthesand]

Knowing what I know, if Leppa is the only major casualty of this season and the consequences don't flow down to some sacred cows in the senior playing ranks, then I will have basically zero hope for any modicum of success from this club in the short to medium term.

Our young, next-gen Lions need far better leadership than they are getting. Cut out the rot before the whole place gets gangrene.

Voss must be shaking his head in utter disbelief at the Groundhog Day shit that is unfolding up here. Spinning our wheels in the mud for three more years.

I just re-read this thread and I think it is the best convo that's been had on here for some time.

I have a question about your comment here.

If Leppa came in knowing what he knew about Vossy and our cultural problems, isn't the fact he has let 3 maybe 4 senior players sink him in the same fashion an indication that he is has failed in his leadership, and further - that failed to establish himself at the club?

If the issue is with a handful of sacred cows, you simply need to squash those egos within a week of walking in, don't you?

We have a special sort of challenge that requires a special sort leader, clearly.

 

[MacMum]

P


Player Managers are a wealth of info, a fertile source of muck. They're the agenda drivers, but let's not discount the fact that whilst they are particularly influential on younger players, they become the oracle for older ones.

That is what makes the Rocky - Hammo exchange re shelving contract extension astounding.

There are two managers who instantly come to mind who could have loose lips in regard to our club and getting information out there..

Liam Pickering and Scott Lucas........both connected to SEN and all the programs/hosts/other reporters at that station.

Any player manager could muck-rake to the "right" people if they felt an anger towards the club and the people in the club..

We really are sitting ducks right now..

 

[notliondown]

I have said repeatedly that I was never sold 100% on Leppa as a coach - I'm not too sure too many have ever said that they were. I've always maintained that in the interest of stability and actually sticking to a premeditated plan for a change, that he deserved more time. My support for structure and perseverance after years of tail chasing would remain true regardless of our coach and his results if he articulated a clear plan as Leppa has done from the start.

Today my resolve and support for that to remain true is increased.

If you are asking me to chose between us becoming a strong, determined, principled and driven club and some players the choice is easy. Regardless of names and faces.

 

[hench]

His name hasn't been mentioned for a page so I'll bring it up again.......

Brett Ratten.

 

[Big Lion]

Sounds like it could very well come down to pushing some senior players, or axing Leppa.





.

This sounds about right though doesnt it. Coach has lost the senior players. I'm afraid Leppa looks a dead man walking coaching wise. Hard to see him hanging on. Though you never know.

 

[James North]

This sounds about right though doesnt it. Coach has lost the senior players. I'm afraid Leppa looks a dead man walking coaching wise. Hard to see him hanging on.

According to the article - that's what it sounded like (not according to me).