Analysis Is Leppa the Right Man for the Job?

[13Beast]

I know this is about leppa, but just for arguments sake why is leppa under the pump when just down the road we have rocket Eade who is an experienced coach, with a list that was built from first round draft picks, which is also a few years further in their development then us and the major reason for sacking bluey was culture and lack of finals. He is 2 years in and no finals where are the jungle drums for Eade. You could make the injury argument, but you could make it for us and their depth should be miles ahead of ours. You could make the talent argument, but they had salary cap concessions, dozens of first round selections and recruited one of the all time greats of the game, that argument doesn't seem to hold up. So I say why not Eade?

They Suns have shown a lot more promise under Eade (especially this season) than we have under Leppa. Yes they have a better list, but have also been cruelled by injury. I do not think for a second that Eade's job is in peril. Maybe a bad season next year, then it's likely.

 

[Happy_Neale]

I find it hard to believe journos can go weeks without even mentioning us to suddenly spending multiple avenues talking about a fabricated story like some seem to be claiming.

 

[Always a Lion]

LOTR, you've expressed your opinion over and over - you keep hammering it home with so much conviction and certainty. I cannot understand how you can be so sure. The list is the youngest in the league, as you rightfully point out, so personally I don't expect anymore wins out of them than the ones they have.

You say Leppa has lost the players, what if that's because there are certain senior players who are simply wedges. It is pretty obvious to me that the under performance has come out of those very senior players you would have as untouchable. No one wants to lose senior players. But you'd have to look at their complete contribution to the team, and it is not simply experience.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about any of the points you make, I just think that to focus in on them so completely is a simplistic. I simply don't know whether Leppa is the right man for the job or not. But I am certainly of the opinion that he is not the source of the continuous flow of crap that keeps coming out of the Lions. I am also certain that he would be one hundred percent selfless in his commitment to his coaching.

Anybody, anytime who has achieved success, has done so having dealt with years of being a failure. One does not come without the other. We are all failures far longer than we are a success.

I am giving Leppa the benefit of the doubt, whilst there are other issues weighing. You can perhaps at least acknowledge that there are other things influencing our performance, which are genuine excuses. Yes our youthful list is genuinely an excuse for our performances.

 

[Bucking Beads]

Considering that the Senior Players are apparently trying to knife a 2nd Senior Coach in 2 years I think it is the obvious choice to get rid of the Players and keep the coach. We can't be bowing down to Senior Players with this kind of attitude.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

Some guessing articles come up and everyone hates the senior players again. Zorko already assuring that the relationship is strong. We're an easy target at the moment and the journos are just posting any purple monkeys that they hear.

 

[M Malice]

I am less gung-ho about shipping off senior players as that is likely to do is make us even less competitive in the short-term, unless we somehow get good senior players in return. I mean the youngest list by a fair way in the League simply can't keeping losing experience and think it will get better onfield.

not saying i want this but- 2017 off season. will put it on the trade/FA/draft hypothetical thread as well.

outs-(delisted/traded/retired) p.hanley, t.rockliff, d.merrett, j.green, l.taylor, d.rich, j.watts, j.mcginness,

ins- (trade/FA/draft) m.hurley, b.whitecross, n.brown, j.steele, j.barrett, s.petrevski-seton, h.McGluggage (PP), a.mcgrath.

edit- forgot allison, rolls and watson, i'll go away and think about it.

 

[Ironmonger]

LOTR, you've expressed your opinion over and over - you keep hammering it home with so much conviction and certainty. I cannot understand how you can be so sure. The list is the youngest in the league, as you rightfully point out, so personally I don't expect anymore wins out of them than the ones they have.

You say Leppa has lost the players, what if that's because there are certain senior players who are simply wedges. It is pretty obvious to me that the under performance has come out of those very senior players you would have as untouchable. No one wants to lose senior players. But you'd have to look at their complete contribution to the team, and it is not simply experience.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about any of the points you make, I just think that to focus in on them so completely is a simplistic. I simply don't know whether Leppa is the right man for the job or not. But I am certainly of the opinion that he is not the source of the continuous flow of crap that keeps coming out of the Lions. I am also certain that he would be one hundred percent selfless in his commitment to his coaching.

Anybody, anytime who has achieved success, has done so having dealt with years of being a failure. One does not come without the other. We are all failures far longer than we are a success.

I am giving Leppa the benefit of the doubt, whilst there are other issues weighing. You can perhaps at least acknowledge that there are other things influencing our performance, which are genuine excuses. Yes our youthful list is genuinely an excuse for our performances.

I don't think it's fair to call Last of the Roys ' post 'simplistic', nor that it displayed too much conviction and certainty.

If you genuinely believe that our youthful list is the primary reason for our lack of success, then further alienating our senior players is the last thing we should be doing. Personally I think the problems are more widespread than that.

Leppitsch has made some sweeping, aggressive decisions since he took over. If the players are acting out - and we're relying largely on some vague reports in drawing that conclusion - then it's likely to be in part a response to some of those decisions.

I really don't see why Leppitsch deserves the benefit of the doubt more than the players do. He might yet prove to be vindicated, but he doesn't exactly have a track record of success right now.

 

[CarterS]

It's hard to know what to believe at this point in terms of whether our culture is OK or poison. If the players are running the show though that needs to be changed ASAP. Surely Leigh Matthews would be the perfect man to sort out that rubbish. Agree with Smith, if there are players doing the type of stuff speculated then stop playing them now and get rid of them at the end of the season. Here's more guessing - does the falling out between Zorko and Rockliff have anything to do with all of this? Did Zorko have a crack at Rockliff because he is a dud leader?

 

[Always a Lion]

I don't think it's fair to call Last of the Roys ' post 'simplistic', nor that it displayed too much conviction and certainty.

If you genuinely believe that our youthful list is the primary reason for our lack of success, then further alienating our senior players is the last thing we should be doing. Personally I think the problems are more widespread than that.

Leppitsch has made some sweeping, aggressive decisions since he took over. If the players are acting out - and we're relying largely on some vague reports in drawing that conclusion - then it's likely to be in part a response to some of those decisions.

I really don't see why Leppitsch deserves the benefit of the doubt. He might yet prove to be vindicated, but he doesn't exactly have a track record of success right now.

Simplistic in the sense that Leppa is identified as the one and only problem. I know how passionate LORT is about the Lions, and how closely he has followed our level of experience over the years. I respect everything he says. But Leppa came in with a rebuild plan, and his plan is halfway through, in the sense that the rebuild itself is mostly done in terms of personal, but really, we are at zero in terms of building a team. That team youthfulness hasn't allowed him to demonstrate a track record.

 

[13Beast]

Yep. That was my first thought on Rocky giving Hammo the scoop on his contract standoff. Why him of all people? Christ.

Any incumbent captain giving such a story to ANY journo regarding his contract absolutely bloody stinks. Disgusting behaviour by a captain and supposed leader of the club. Instantly disposable as captain, and possibly as a player, at that point.

 

[James North]

I don't think it's fair to call Last of the Roys ' post 'simplistic', nor that it displayed too much conviction and certainty.

If you genuinely believe that our youthful list is the primary reason for our lack of success, then further alienating our senior players is the last thing we should be doing. Personally I think the problems are more widespread than that.

Leppitsch has made some sweeping, aggressive decisions since he took over. If the players are acting out - and we're relying largely on some vague reports in drawing that conclusion - then it's likely to be in part a response to some of those decisions.

I really don't see why Leppitsch deserves the benefit of the doubt more than the players do. He might yet prove to be vindicated, but he doesn't exactly have a track record of success right now.

Are they really reacting to sweeping changes, or are they wanting to enact another of their own?

Players deserve same benefit of the doubt as coach - X years to turn things around. What about players who were part of list that saw Voss sacked? How many years and coaches do they get to prove their ability to adhere to a given coach's plans?

Further, I'd say that I'm excited about the youth because they seem to be showing great adherence to what's being communicated to them. At the same time, I can say that they are also a fair reason why we're losing a lot.

Some guessing articles come up and everyone hates the senior players again. Zorko already assuring that the relationship is strong. We're an easy target at the moment and the journos are just posting any purple monkeys that they hear.

Also - this assumes that Zorko and Rockliff are on the 'same side' in this dig-up.

 

[Kevvo]

I don't think it's fair to call Last of the Roys ' post 'simplistic', nor that it displayed too much conviction and certainty.

If you genuinely believe that our youthful list is the primary reason for our lack of success, then further alienating our senior players is the last thing we should be doing. Personally I think the problems are more widespread than that.

Leppitsch has made some sweeping, aggressive decisions since he took over. If the players are acting out - and we're relying largely on some vague reports in drawing that conclusion - then it's likely to be in part a response to some of those decisions.

I really don't see why Leppitsch deserves the benefit of the doubt more than the players do. He might yet prove to be vindicated, but he doesn't exactly have a track record of success right now.

I agree that Last of the Roys ' posts haven't been simplistic, and I don't want to speak for Always a Lion , but there's one important thing in my view that separates the two perspectives (it's Rocky vs it's Leppitsch).

This feels a lot like the mess that happened in the year leading up to Voss going. Interestingly, the sense I got from the players who left (Yeo and Polec especially IIRC) and Mayes more recently was that they felt pretty close to Voss. I was a bit surprised by that, because I had assumed their departure may have precipitated Voss's. At the time, I was inclined to think that the rumored issues with the remaining players were overstated and that Voss had his chance.

However, that cycle seems to be repeating itself, notwithstanding that we've done a better job at locking in the young players. I have resilient confidence that Leigh Matthews and Jonathan Brown are both well equipped to assess Leppitsch's coaching abilities, and both have been strong and consistent in their support for him. As far as I can tell, Rockliff's greatest support as a leader has come from Leppitsch.

From the outside looking in, I have no doubt that my opinion reflects my cognitive biases. But to me, it feels like Rockliff has been at the centre of more issues for a longer time, embellished as they may have been in the reporting.

 

[Nunez]

Considering that the Senior Players are apparently trying to knife a 2nd Senior Coach in 2 years I think it is the obvious choice to get rid of the Players and keep the coach. We can't be bowing down to Senior Players with this kind of attitude.

I don't think all senior players are trying to knife Leppa....

 

[Last of the Roys]

LOTR, you've expressed your opinion over and over - you keep hammering it home with so much conviction and certainty. I cannot understand how you can be so sure. The list is the youngest in the league, as you rightfully point out, so personally I don't expect anymore wins out of them than the ones they have.

You say Leppa has lost the players, what if that's because there are certain senior players who are simply wedges. It is pretty obvious to me that the under performance has come out of those very senior players you would have as untouchable. No one wants to lose senior players. But you'd have to look at their complete contribution to the team, and it is not simply experience.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about any of the points you make, I just think that to focus in on them so completely is a simplistic. I simply don't know whether Leppa is the right man for the job or not. But I am certainly of the opinion that he is not the source of the continuous flow of crap that keeps coming out of the Lions. I am also certain that he would be one hundred percent selfless in his commitment to his coaching.

Anybody, anytime who has achieved success, has done so having dealt with years of being a failure. One does not come without the other. We are all failures far longer than we are a success.

I am giving Leppa the benefit of the doubt, whilst there are other issues weighing. You can perhaps at least acknowledge that there are other things influencing our performance, which are genuine excuses. Yes our youthful list is genuinely an excuse for our performances.

I don't exactly know what you are talking about - expressing my opinion over and over again. I have provided my opinion when something new or interesting to me has cropped up. I have generally not tried to engage in ongoing debates with people to try and change their opinions.

I also don't understand what you saying about conviction and certainty - I am one of the few people who continually talks about how much we don't know and how much a lot of what is posted is built upon very large assumptions. Of course we don't have all the information - all I have been saying is that is far easy to judge what we can actually see for ourselves than judge rumours and innuendo.

I have also clearly said I don't think the players are untouchable, but then explained the reason why I would be far less inclined to throw them out to go with the rest of the list that has been churned before.

I have nothing against Leppa, he will always be a champion of our Club and seems like a good person. But his coaching record unfortunately speaks for itself. I have also repeated over and over again that our problems go far beyond Leppa and simply removing him won't magically fix all of the other areas. But again that is not a reason to keep Leppa in place.

To put it back to you - to claim my posting is simplistic and has a high degree of certainty seems to strike me as incredibly simplistic in itself.

 

[M Malice]

if a decision is going to be made in the off season that rocky has the captaincy taken off him, IMO he should not be retained as a player either. would be too divisive a situation for the player group to keep him on as a non captain.

 

[lioninthesand]

I don't exactly know what you are talking about - expressing my opinion over and over again. I have provided my opinion when something new or interesting to me has cropped up. I have generally not tried to engage in ongoing debates with people to try and change their opinions.

I also don't understand what you saying about conviction and certainty - I am one of the few people who continually talks about how much we don't know and how much a lot of what is posted is built upon very large assumptions. Of course we don't have all the information - all I have been saying is that is far easy to judge what we can actually see for ourselves than judge rumours and innuendo.

I have also clearly said I don't think the players are untouchable, but then explained the reason why I would be far less inclined to throw them out to go with the rest of the list that has been churned before.

I have nothing against Leppa, he will always be a champion of our Club and seems like a good person. But his coaching record unfortunately speaks for itself. I have also repeated over and over again that our problems go far beyond Leppa and simply removing him won't magically fix all of the other areas. But again that is not a reason to keep Leppa in place.

To put it back to you - to claim my posting is simplistic and has a high degree of certainty seems to strike me as incredibly simplistic in itself.

Your contributions are great Mate, and in terms of expressing the same opinion over and over, its a bit rich targeting only you of being guilty of that! LOL

 

[Hollow Knight]

Here we go again with the gibes at Rockliff. Kernels of truth build into massive assumptions and somehow snowball into damning indictments based on the slimmest of evidence. Answering a question on his contract negotiations to Hammo at the Hall of Fame function is somehow evidence Rocky is only out for himself. Get a grip.....

Here we go again with blanket defences of Rockliff followed by shovelling it all back on to Leppa....

Hmm... Just providing a short, overly reductionist and dismissive summary of an argument doesn't really constitute much of a counterpoint does it?

I don't see you condemning the "kernels of truth" about Leppa that "snowball into damning indictments". The conclusions that have been drawn about a bloke standing up in the coaches box... holy shit. Let alone the categoric declarations that he has "lost the players"... based on what? The mass re-signings?

Again, I get that you are frustrated that people aren't comfortable disclosing the full details on what they've heard on Rockliff. I'd be frustrated too. The number of PMs I receive makes that clear. But it's not nothing. And you'll have to forgive some of us for being very afraid than another coach (who I note isn't entirely blameless) is about the carry the whole can for much wider failings in the football club, while certain movers and shakers in the playing group escape any scrutiny yet again.

You said a win can wallpaper over cracks. So can sacking a coach. If done the wrong way it can just delay the wider reforms needed to really turn the joint around. Why are people so afraid to look deeper? Do they just crave the short term, warm cosy valium hit that a coach sacking will provide without having to stomach the thought that some of our sacred cows have gone astray from the herd? As for seeing the same shit play out again for the next guy... well that's a problem for "future us" right?

 

[Hollow Knight]

if a decision is going to be made in the off season that rocky has the captaincy taken off him, IMO he should not be retained as a player either. would be too divisive a situation for the player group to keep him on as a non captain.

Yeah this is the bit I struggle with. I don't want him to be captain next year but I am not sure how we manage such a transition. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would wear the demotion well. That may say something about his innate firey competitiveness or something else. I don't really know but it fills me with serious unease. It's a big part of the reason I feel we are headed for a somewhat unclean divorce.

But I don't know how we'd manage such a transition in a people-skills sense. But if that tough call needs to be made, it needs to be made. The easiest thing to do would be to just choose the path of least resistance, but that isn't necessarily the right thing to do.

 

[M Malice]

Here we go again with blanket defences of Rockliff followed by shovelling it all back on to Leppa....

Hmm... Just providing a short, overly reductionist and dismissive summary of an argument doesn't really constitute much of a counterpoint does it?

I don't see you condemning the "kernels of truth" about Leppa that "snowball into damning indictments". The conclusions that have been drawn about a bloke standing up in the coaches box... holy shit. Let alone the categoric declarations that he has "lost the players"... based on what? The mass re-signings?

Again, I get that you are frustrated that people aren't comfortable disclosing the full details on what they've heard on Rockliff. I'd be frustrated too. The number of PMs I receive makes that clear. But it's not nothing. And you'll have to forgive some of us for being very afraid than another coach (who I note isn't entirely blameless) is about the carry the whole can for much wider failings in the football club, while certain movers and shakers in the playing group escape any scrutiny yet again.

You said a win can wallpaper over cracks. So can sacking a coach. If done the wrong way it can just delay the wider reforms needed to really turn the joint around. Why are people so afraid to look deeper? Do they just crave the short term, warm cosy valium hit that a coach sacking will provide? As for seeing the same shit play out again for the next guy... well that's a problem for "future us" right?

i for one am prepared to take you at your word re your "inside info" on player power and delusions of grandeur from some of them, the players causing the trouble must be moved on this time surely. we all know what the definition of insanity is.

 

[Nunez]

Yeah this is the bit I struggle with. I don't want him to be captain next year but I am not sure how we manage such a transition. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would wear the demotion well. That may say something about his innate firey competitiveness or something else. I don't really know. But I don't know how we'd manage such a transition in a people-skills sense.

It's part of the reason I feel we are headed for a somewhat unclean divorce.

Agreed. IMO the only solution is to trade him at this stage. I can't see anything else being the right choice.

 

[lioninthesand]

Here we go again with blanket defences of Rockliff followed by shovelling it all back on to Leppa....

Hmm... Just providing a short, overly reductionist and dismissive summary of an argument doesn't really constitute much of a counterpoint does it?

I don't see you condemning the "kernels of truth" about Leppa that "snowball into damning indictments". The conclusions that have been drawn about a bloke standing up in the coaches box... holy shit. Let alone the categoric declarations that he has "lost the players"... based on what? The mass re-signings?

Again, I get that you are frustrated that people aren't comfortable disclosing the full details on what they've heard on Rockliff. I'd be frustrated too. The number of PMs I receive makes that clear. But it's not nothing. And you'll have to forgive some of us for being very afraid than another coach (who I note isn't entirely blameless) is about the carry the whole can for much wider failings in the football club, while certain movers and shakers in the playing group escape any scrutiny yet again.

You said a win can wallpaper over cracks. So can sacking a coach. If done the wrong way it can just delay the wider reforms needed to really turn the joint around. Why are people so afraid to look deeper? Do they just crave the short term, warm cosy valium hit that a coach sacking will provide without having to stomach the thought that some of our sacred cows have gone astray from the herd? As for seeing the same shit play out again for the next guy... well that's a problem for "future us" right?

To be fair, the only really indictment on Leppa required is his current coaching record. No snowballing Kernels are needed.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

I would really like to know what Rockliff has done to make you doubt him as much you do TBD. Really damaging look the way you are wording your posts for people who have no idea what has happened.

 

[Hollow Knight]

To be fair, the only really indictment on Leppa required is his current coaching record. No snowballing Kernels are needed.

Yet there they are anyway.

 

[Happy_Neale]

Yet there they are anyway.

O'brien incident doesn't help either. Poor coaching record. Unable to galvanise the senior players into a cohesive unit (both parties share blame for that one). These all happened. What other aspects exist that are inconclusive/untrue?

 

[Hollow Knight]

O'brien incident doesn't help either. Poor coaching record. Unable to galvanise the senior players into a cohesive unit (both parties share blame for that one). These all happened. What other aspects exist that are inconclusive/untrue?

I mentioned a couple in my original post. Standing in the coaching box (and what that supposedly means)... he's lost the players etc.