Is Lonergan or Rooke a better option than Taylor?

[Johnson#26]

No need to apologise. We're all entitled to our opinion

Since 2005, Rooke has really stood up IMO, especially in 2006 where we struggled.

Last year was a tough year through injury and thus far, a few niggling injuries have continued to riddle him.

I think he'll be back. Probably next week as there will be changes.

That's fair enough - but I admit I was surprised when he was sent over to Germany for the hamstring treatment, and then at the Geel/North QF last season he got all the 'yay Maxy/Rookey you star' etc calls from the Cats fans --> that's fair enough I suppose, you back your players, but...yeah, just never rated him. Actually thought more of him during 2002 (his first season)!

 

[martyk]

Most good players are.

Missed half of '07. You were always reluctant to hang it on Hunt. Why was that?

You continue to amaze, martyk.

Hunt played a couple of bad games early in '07 and was dropped... so what? In the end he proved that he is superior to Tenace, D.Johnson.. thats it. He never had a long terrible stretch anything close to Rooke. Rooke has been getting selected on reputation and not performing... deal with it.

Like I said... supporters like yourself can't justify the bloke. He scores rubbish fantasy scores every week / is very in-effective. Is not in sync with the team since we started playing quick hands, fast movement style. Was more useful pre-'07 when we were playing garbage defensive, flooding style.

I'm amazing you am I? Well people who make statements without backing them up with anything credible are common on here, you are a good example. C'mon, give me some reasons why Rooke deserves a game?

 

[year of the cat]

Hunt played a couple of bad games early in '07 and was dropped... so what? In the end he proved that he is superior to Tenace, D.Johnson.. thats it. He never had a long terrible stretch anything close to Rooke. Rooke has been getting selected on reputation and not performing... deal with it.

Like I said... supporters like yourself can't justify the bloke. He scores rubbish fantasy scores every week / is very in-effective. Is not in sync with the team since we started playing quick hands, fast movement style. Was more useful pre-'07 when we were playing garbage defensive, flooding style.

I'm amazing you am I? Well people who make statements without backing them up with anything credible are common on here, you are a good example. C'mon, give me some reasons why Rooke deserves a game?

Rooke was good in the wet last year against Port over at AAMI (as well as in the GF)....I reckon he has some quiet games for sure, but is not a complete dud like some others..

Do you reckon he is a better option than Taylor right now? If not how would you match up next time around when we play Brisbane (Brown, Bradshaw), Coll (Cloke, Rocca) or Hawthorn (Franklin, Roughead).

 

[martyk]

Rooke was good in the wet last year against Port over at AAMI (as well as in the GF)....I reckon he has some quiet games for sure, but is not a complete dud like some others..

Do you reckon he is a better option than Taylor right now? If not how would you match up next time around when we play Brisbane (Brown, Bradshaw), Coll (Cloke, Rocca) or Hawthorn (Franklin, Roughead).

Rooke is not a key defensive player... there is really too many people on this forum who don't even understand the basics.

Taylor is the clubs future and should be played every week... that is my opinion. He will struggle against the best forwards this year but be much better for it when Egan returns and Harley(I'm praying for it) retires at the end of this year.

This is part of my gripe with Harley. He can't play a real key defensive role, + he is not effective setting up the play out of defense (a MAJOR aspect of a defenders game today). **** on a bull my friends...

Rooke doesn't fit in our side like he used to. He isn't in sync with the other midfielders... lacks the skill, awareness, poise of the others. Its a shame but its obvious also.

Sides with 2-3 good forward options will stretch any defense... Don't blame our defenders for the loss on Friday night. Our midfielders (- Ablett) got torn up and the defenders cop the brunt?? Not fair. Enright, Corey, Bartel get in the bests even but their opponents carved us up all night.
Any game where your opposition is pumping you like the Pies did to us is gonna hurt. People who single out the defenders are tunnel visioned fools.

Our forwards / mids were just as bad.... Except Harley, our defense wasn't that bad. Scarlett had a crack, Hunt was good, Milburn had a go...

 

[Asty]

Realistically I think Taylor is a couple of pre-seasons away from being able to compete week in week out on bigger bodies but he has done v.well for us so far and I think Lonergan is the only other option at the moment and he is just as likely to be beaten. The main issue on the weekend was the pressure through the middle, or should I say lack of it. The ball came down enough that some of there forwards had no option but to get a bit of it.

If we were to look at just that game a few might be looking at playing in the 2s next week.

 

[winty]

I'm glad we aren't the selection committee. Going through the threads that have popped up since Friday night's game finished, we'd be dropping the likes of Taylor, Mackie, Blake, Mooney, Harley, Hawkins, SJ, Ling and Varcoe this week. At this rate we might as well just drop the senior side minus Gaz and put in those eligible in the VFL side plus Chapman and Ottens.

 

[dadonis]

harley needs to step up to the chb role again. he was always better playing tall, sitting off the second best power forward and supporting scarlett. was just while he was away injured that a young bloke named egan stepped in and found his calling in that spot, so when harley's come back he's dropped to a utility role in defence, and taylor's stepped into the breach since then.

don't get me wrong, harley plays a vital tole in the back - big marks, brute strength, composure etc, but now's the time for him to step up and take the big forward again.

harley's a brute of a man - 6'4 and built like a brick shith@use, and would benefit from the exposure again to power forwards that match his own style of play. let's face it, he mainly gets beaten by small fast forwards, ala didak, medhurst etc, and this is more of a concern than our ability to match the big forwards.

as the game's gotten faster, the trend has moved to more smaller, fast forwards, and this is where we're lacking in defence. apart from hunt, all of our backmen are 6'3 and up (except maybe enright, who's still at least 6'2) and pace is naturally going to become an issue. we nearly came unstuck last week against richmond, with their small fowards brown, deledio etc, who ran circles around us for most of the match bar the 3rd quarter.

consider who we'd match up against our own forward line. we've got the size and talent to match up probably mooney and hawkins, maybe even johnson. but when the ball goes to ground who does the job on stokes, chapman, kelly?

then look at our 2 biggest threats this year - hawthorn and the bulldogs. the bulldogs' small forward line has troubled us for years, and they're one of the few teams to beat us consistently at least once a year for as many years back as i can currently recall.

and now hawthorn are poised to exploit this gap. apart from having the wood on us in recent years, they've now really balanced up a beautiful attacking combination. franklin and roughead are the 2 massive obvious targets that would draw 2 to 3 of our big key defenders, and i'm confident we could shut them down. but once the ball hits the deck, they've got a swarm of fast little men up front that could really hurt us - williams, rioli, osborne etc, not to mention their fast midfield who also kick plenty, and if we don't have some fast smaller options to counter, we could get really hurt.

so, knowing that egan's not coming back, and taylor, despite his fantastic endeavours, is still a first year kid, we need to adjust the defensive mix now, in preparation for later in the season and the finals.

scarlett should always be ready to take on the biggest threat - be it brown, franklin, pavlich, whoever, even if it limits his attacking game. he's the best we've got, and needs to be accountable on the opposition best, so we don't get situations like brown carving us up last year in bigger games, like a grand final, cause we're counting on the boys to do the general's job. harley needs to play taller and use his size, power, experience and composure to take the second big forward. milburn's the perfect foil for these 2, and taylor should be freed up to a defensive utility role while he develops, perhaps even rotating forward occasionally to help his attacking game. perhaps a few weeks in the 2s as well to ensure we don't burn him out physically. hunt's body strength and awesome kick add to the mix, and enright's run and endeavour mean he can shadow one of the smaller/faster players, and still win plenty of ball.

that still leaves us exposed for defensive pace. wojinski used to play more defensive, but his best use now is his blazing attacking run, so we need at least one smaller body to fill the gap. we could rotate one of the current smaller forwards like stokes into defence, but i hate the idea of unsettling our forward structure. a better idea would be to blood some of the 2s now, so the obvious candidate/s stand out by the business end of the season.

i must admit i'm sketchy on the details of our reserves. perhaps david johnson could be brought back into the fold? tenace would be perfect if he managed to live up to the promise he showed early on. i'd love to see djerrkura given a run in defence. i belive he plays up forward in the 2s, but his speed and attack on the ball and player are awesome to watch from the few times i've seen him play, and that's exactly what i think we need.

what are your thoughts? does anyone agree we need more smaller, faster defenders, and who would you suggest..?

 

[dadonis]

by the way, i considered martyk's lack of faith in harley as so far off the mark i decided to ignore his views completely, and just footnote his comments as trash!

 

[candiehappy]

Please.... Taylor was throw off so easily it wasn't funny.

His spot must be looked at.

If you judged everyone on Friday nights game only Ablett would hold his spot. I think he's been pretty good and we shouldn't over react to one pounding.

 

[krisholio14]

Realistically I think Taylor is a couple of pre-seasons away from being able to compete week in week out on bigger bodies but he has done v.well for us so far and I think Lonergan is the only other option at the moment and he is just as likely to be beaten. The main issue on the weekend was the pressure through the middle, or should I say lack of it. The ball came down enough that some of there forwards had no option but to get a bit of it.

If we were to look at just that game a few might be looking at playing in the 2s next week.

Taylor has stood up so far until Friday night. We had a shit night as a team, he was part of that, but even so, I thought Harry still did some good things and at least wasn't afraid to keep putting his body on the line for four quarters.

He is 22 years old, so he has a reasonable level of physical development (similar to Egan when he slotted in in 2005), and I think the best way to fast track his improvement is to keep playing him. One stinker, when he had plenty of mates, does not warrant 'a rest'.

And just one thing on Max Rooke. It was painfully obvious from this loss why he gets a game despite his limitations. There is no way we would have got monstered like we did on Friday had he been in the side.

 

[martyk]

by the way, i considered martyk's lack of faith in harley as so far off the mark i decided to ignore his views completely, and just footnote his comments as trash!

Too bad you can't point out inconsistencies in what I wrote. If I'm "so off the mark" then why post wasteful crap when you can write something that will dismiss my point of view???

I know your just trying to appeal to your $hit for brains buddys on here...

 

[Cattery]

let's face it, he mainly gets beaten by small fast forwards, ala didak, medhurst etc, and this is more of a concern than our ability to match the big forwards.

Don't think I agree with this, he had an outstanding season in 07 playing predominately on medium/small forwards, nearly all of whom he flogged, it's when he's matched up against the "power forwards" that he struggles.

See where you're coming from though, it would be great if he could fill that roll again and release Taylor to take a lesser opposition forward, but I have my doubts he'd be capable at this stage of his career.

 

[Kramer1]

I have taken a bit of interest in Taylor (yes...for Supercoach purposes) and he seems a bit of a find.

He has good closing speed, is comfortable a step or two off his man with good spoiling abilities, and backs himself in a marking contest. Because he is able to play off his man he is not relying on upper body strength alone to match it with the gorillas.

Only fault I can find is he will occasionly place a team mate under the pump with questionable handballs out of defense...I think even in the modern game their is still cause just to throw it on the boot occasionaly out of defense.

Anyway hope you persevere with him. Jamieson for us is in a similar boat. Richo threw him around like a rag doll in round one, but we persevered and he has improved every round until recent injury.

 

[martyk]

Don't think I agree with this, he had an outstanding season in 07 playing predominately on medium/small forwards, nearly all of whom he flogged, it's when he's matched up against the "power forwards" that he struggles.

See where you're coming from though, it would be great if he could fill that roll again and release Taylor to take a lesser opposition forward, but I have my doubts he'd be capable at this stage of his career.

We dominated in '07, that is putting it lightly. The only forwards who troubled us were the power forwards... Harley got toweled up by both B.Johnson and Reiwoldt last year all the same.
Its a different story when our opposition are winning the ball to the extent Collingwood did. The poor defenders will be much easier to find I'm afraid.

To me, if Harley can't at his age take the bigger forwards, he's useless. He's certainty not fast and hasn't dominated smaller forwards from what I've seen... not when we've been under the pump... he gets beaten consistently.
Add to that.... uses the ball worst than everyone except Blake.

Look at the variables in this equation... it spells out retirement / give Taylor a go in '09 when Egan returns.

 

[SUPASTARR]

Give the kid a break guys! The way the ball was coming in to Cloke nobody stood a chance. Also why would a first year player be criticised for being beaten by the no. 1 key forward in a good team. Doesn't Mark Thompson have enough faith in the skipper to warrant moving him onto a rampaging Cloke? I think Taylor has been very good for us and there is no reason to drop off him after 1 bad week

 

[catswhiskers]

Partridge- love your unemotional analysis. Always gives me lots to think about.

Dadonis- loved your post and could replay the lot but my screen won"t cope.

For mine its Scarlett and Taylor for talls in defence but as dadonis says add in Harley here. The idea dadonis has that Taylor needs to be freed up a bit (just a beginner really) strikes a chord with me. He is still skinny.
Harley might need to play taller.
Elsewhere wise heads have pointed out that Mooney might benefit from a run down back too. That appeals to me also. Just a 15 min bash ( sorry stint) while Taylor has a look from the other end. He has played forward in a former life.

Taylor is a great pick up but to expect him to hold the best big forward each week while Scarlett and Harley "moonlight" could end in tears.

If Partridge is right our midfield finds top gear again and all the worries disappear. If however we have been figured out, Bomber needs to start to swing some of these moves- just like dadonis recommends.

What about Lonergan and Rooke? Well, we will only know about Lonergan when he gets a chance in the ones again. In defence only for mine. Remember it took one B Graham a long time to break into the first 22 ( or was it 20). Rooke will never play permanent defence again IMO a mid or forward.

Oh and by the way - long stops for a night game at the G please.

 

[Gogeelong]

Rooke is out of touch at the moment. Give him a couple more weeks and he is in our best 22

Lonergan will have trouble keeping up with the pace of the seniors. If he could he would be in the side instead of Taylor. Mind you he is VERY impressive in the seconds.

Taylor needs another year and will fill Milburns spot. He does not have the body for the monsters, but will be a very good ordinary player

Harley in inbetween and has trouble with the bigger bodies. eg Why was he not swapped for Taylor on the weekend?

We need a big body like Egans and look forward to his return next year

 

[biggalz23]

i think we made a mistake with taylor....had to be better options that were 21 y.o.

 

[stevie20]

Taylor has had one bad game and u want him dropped/wished he was never drafted. Come on u have got to be serious!!

 

[iameviljez]

Taylor has had one bad game and u want him dropped/wished he was never drafted. Come on u have got to be serious!!

Exactly, Mr McEnroe.
To be serious, though, there aren't many 21yos at ALL in the league in a key back position. Go easy!

 

[Duskfire]

Didn't Egan get his ass kicked by Cloke last year as well? Cloke is just one of those inconsistent players who seems to bring his "A" game against the Cats.

 

[JUBJUB]

i think we made a mistake with taylor....had to be better options that were 21 y.o.

If you're being cheeky it's best you put one of these in your post.
If you're being serious then I'll put one of these in my post

 

[darren forssman]

Didn't Egan get his ass kicked by Cloke last year as well? Cloke is just one of those inconsistent players who seems to bring his "A" game against the Cats.

i thought i asked the same question in this thread, my post must have been deleted...but yeah, cloke kicked 3-4 on egan last year.

when i heard he had played like puss the previous 3 weeks i just knew he was going to rip us apart.