Is there a problem with Islamic schools?

[simpleton]

Well I think the latest Bible burning story is a beat up and school boys at even the elite private schools get up to much, much worse. However out of interest I wanted to see how Islamic schools perform educationally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_in_Victoria,_Australia_according_to_2005_VCE_results

Compare the results of Jewish schools to the Islamic schools and it is quite obvious there is a gigantic difference between them.
School Median study score Percentage over 40
Bialik College 37 36
Leibler Yavneh College 37 33
Mount Scopus Memorial College 36 29

The Islamic Schools Of Victoria 28 5
King Khalid Islamic College 29 4
East Preston Islamic College 23 0

Now maybe it is a matter of socio-economic status causing this discrepancy
but it sure seems like Islamic culture does not value education (apart from "religious education") very highly leading to many of the symptoms (Islamic terrorism, inability to handle criticism, etc) we see today related to such backwardsness.

 

[MightyFighting]

I'd be interested to hear what the fundamentalist Christian schools get.

 

[- PC -]

I'd be interested to hear what the fundamentalist Christian schools get.

Or if the 1st named Islamic school was the highest or the Jewish school named last was the lowest

While it could make for interesting discussion, I think whats presented is either flawed or not fully indicative of the standards

 

[Lestat]

Now maybe it is a matter of socio-economic status causing this discrepancy
but it sure seems like Islamic culture does not value education (apart from "religious education") very highly leading to many of the symptoms (Islamic terrorism, inability to handle criticism, etc) we see today related to such backwardsness.

It seems that you once again have no idea. Education is very highly valued in Islamic society.

At its height, the Islamic empire was the centre of learing and education in the world...it was European and Christian scholars who were coming to Baghdad to learn.

While Islam embraced science and phylosophy, you lot were burning scientists at the stake and accusing them of being heretics.

When your forefathers were living in huts by the rivers, mine were living in cities that had street lights and complex sewerage systems.

The first verse of the Quran which was revealed to the prophet demands us muslims to learn and educate ourselves.......

1. Read! Read In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),

2. Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).

3. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,

4. Who has taught (the writing) by the pen [the first person to write was Prophet Idrees (Enoch)],

5. Has taught man that which he knew not.

6. Nay! Verily, man does transgress all bounds (in disbelief and evil deed, etc.).

7. Because he considers himself self-sufficient.

8. Surely! Unto your Lord is the return.

 

[- PC -]

While Islam embraced science and phylosophy, you lot were burning scientists at the stake and accusing them of being heretics.

When your forefathers were living in huts by the rivers, mine were living in cities that had street lights and complex sewerage systems.

.

The valid question to then ask is what happened?

There seems to be a proliferation of ''western'' ideas, yet either they have gone unnoticed or there have been scant ideas coming from the muslim world.

Can you name some breakthroughs initiated by the muslim education system?

 

[Lestat]

The valid question to then ask is what happened?

Thats easy. We went backwards. We got lazy, and stepped back into ignorance. We moved away from our religon and its teachings.

A major reason for this was the end of the concept of itjihad, which occurred sometime in the 15th century. This was a council of scholars and scientists, who, whenever a new concept was introduced, scientific or phylosophical, it would be debated and discussed and a ruling would be made. It was based on knowledge, and an exchange of idea's.

When itjihad ceased, this discussion no longer occurred, and new concepts were mostly rejected on the basis of ignorance and fear of change. Our leaders ceased to rule for the people, and began to rule for themselves.

There seems to be a proliferation of ''western'' ideas, yet either they have gone unnoticed or there have been scant ideas coming from the muslim world.

Can you name some breakthroughs initiated by the muslim education system?

There are plenty of muslim innovations that are present in todays society, though you would not know it. Many of the advances of medicine came from muslims. The very concept of a hospital was introduced to the world by muslims. The very words 'chemistry' comes from the arabic term 'al-chemya'.

Then there is mathematics, the concept of the number 0 came from arabic mathemeticians. The number system which we used today is known as the 'arabic numerical system'.

There are plenty more. In the 10 century, arabs had calculated the circumferance of the earth, which was remarkably accurate (was 400km off).

Great advancements were made in astronomy as well.

Now, it wasn't only muslims that made these advancements...it was a combination of muslim/Christian/and jewish scietists and philosophers, however, it was Islam that provided the environment for learning, which attracted scientists from all over the world (Europe and Asia) to the famous schools of Badgdad and Cordoba.

 

[MightyFighting]

Then there is mathematics, the concept of the number 0 came from arabic mathemeticians.

It was actually an Indian invention. The Arabs often get credit because that's who the Westerners heard it from.

The number system which we used today is known as the 'arabic numerical system'.

It is called the 'Hindu-Arabic system', and it originated in India.


The itjihad is an interesting concept though. Why couldn't it be reintroduced in some modern form?

 

[Frodo]

From experience, yes.

I have interviewd a few and employed one from the local Islamic college.

They are brainwashed with religion and despite qualifications they all were barely educated.

 

[Z_K]

From experience, yes.

This should be good.

I have interviewd a few and employed one from the local Islamic college.

Ok.

They are brainwashed with religion and despite qualifications they all were barely educated

They are all brainwashed with religion? And of the few you interviewed, how did their washed brains and maniacal religious beliefs manifest itself in your job interview? In the form of prayer? An announcement of jihad?

And if they were barely educated, I have to ask the obvious question. Why employ them? Don't tell me we have bloody muslim quotas. Please don't tell me that.

It was a muslim quota, wasn't it? I knew it.

 

[Frodo]

This should be good.



Ok.



They are all brainwashed with religion? And of the few you interviewed, how did their washed brains and maniacal religious beliefs manifest itself in your job interview? In the form of prayer? An announcement of jihad?

And if they were barely educated, I have to ask the obvious question. Why employ them? Don't tell me we have bloody muslim quotas. Please don't tell me that.

It was a muslim quota, wasn't it? I knew it.

maniacal religious beliefs......I never said that

In an interview you encourage the applican't to talk. Most Muslims will want to talk about their religion. Testing knowledge is easy.
The one guy held back in the interview, but had good qualifications. I gave him a chance. He was an electrical engineering graduate and didn't know year 11 physics. He tried to convert everyone to Islam and was laughed at. The best was his insistence that pythagoras's theorum was developed by Islam.
For those who don't know Islam was created circa 6ad, Pythagoras lived circa 6bc.

 

[dan warna]

I wonder how old the islamic schools are in comparison to the jewish schools, also the comparable resourcing and the socio economic groups that attend.

 

[IntheNet]

maniacal religious beliefs......I never said that
.

Be careful Frodo... there is a fatwah afoot to penalize those that offer to pray around here, especially those that might pray on BigFooty...

 

[Z_K]

maniacal religious beliefs......I never said that

Yeah, I'll cop that. Just adding it for colour. I am a child of the Howard government.

In an interview you encourage the applican't to talk. Most Muslims will want to talk about their religion. Testing knowledge is easy.

In my more extensive experience with the very same topic, I have come across something quite differen't. But that's ok. Most people of the Muslim faith I deal with (daily) are no more inclined to talk about their faith than any other group.

 

[Contra Mundum]

I'd be interested to hear what the fundamentalist Christian schools get.

Or Home schooling llike IntheNet enjoyed.

 

[Murray]

Muslims talking about religion in their jobs eh?

I hear Bush talking about God all the time!!!

 

[FuManchu]

Muslims talking about religion in their jobs eh?

I hear Bush talking about God all the time!!!

when you stuff it up, as much as he has, where else do you look?

 

[- PC -]

Thats easy. We went backwards. We got lazy, and stepped back into ignorance. We moved away from our religon and its teachings.

A major reason for this was the end of the concept of itjihad, which occurred sometime in the 15th century. This was a council of scholars and scientists, who, whenever a new concept was introduced, scientific or phylosophical, it would be debated and discussed and a ruling would be made. It was based on knowledge, and an exchange of idea's.

When itjihad ceased, this discussion no longer occurred, and new concepts were mostly rejected on the basis of ignorance and fear of change. Our leaders ceased to rule for the people, and began to rule for themselves.

Top stuff. Learn something new everyday.

As MF said, any chance it could work again in todays world?

There are plenty of muslim innovations that are present in todays society, though you would not know it.

I was asking for late 18th century on but thanks for the history lesson.

 

[smooking39]

Muslims talking about religion in their jobs eh?

I hear Bush talking about God all the time!!!

In Jewish schools teachers dont speak about religon much at all except in religous studies. The reason Jewish schools do better is better resources and determination and expectation. But on the other hand Yavenah which comes top 10 in VCE dosent have the best equipment.

 

[Murray]

In Jewish schools teachers dont speak about religon much at all except in religous studies.

See, this is where I hear so many different things and being a Jewish person.
I get confused

I have been told that being a practicing Jew is in fact being religiously conscience 100% of the time regardless of formal studies - but now you tell me something different.

I dunno

 

[Lestat]

Top stuff. Learn something new everyday.

As MF said, any chance it could work again in todays world?

Unfortunately, it would be highly unlikely. The muslim world is so divided today that it would only end up in squabbling and confrontation. Take a look at the arab league as an example.

Unfortunately, today we have no Islamic leadership. The leaders of muslims countries are mostly despots and dictators who care more about there own hold on power then the condition of the muslim ummah (population). Our scholars are either puppets for these govt's, or disregarded as extremists

In essence, this is what the western media means by 'moderates' and 'extremists'...moderates are those who ally themselves with the regimes and the western nations that back them, whereas extremists are those who oppose these regimes and there western backers...despite the fact that the teachings of the 'moderates' are often much more extreme then that of the 'extremists'.

Take Amr Khalid for example. In Egypt he is a scholar, who was very popular amongst the young. He called for more rights for Egyptian woman, and more transparency and less coruption from the Egyptian government. He also called for a democratic vote, yet he also made the 'mistake' of rejecting American policies in the United States in the ME. He has been described by the west and the Egyptian govt as an extremist (he is anything but).

On the other hand, scholars in Saudi Arabia who call for less womans rights, and complete obediance to the Saudi Royal family, and have resisted reforms and woman rights, they are described as 'moderates'. Why, because they support the Saudi and US forreign policy in the area.

We also have no central body to organise, and run itjihad. In the past, the Calipha was responsible for the ummah (muslim people) and the direction of the faith. It was the calipha who organised, and chaired the itjihad. Today, to mention the word calipha in any arabic country will get you killed, and to work towards a caliphate in the middle east will have you labelled an extremist.

I agree, we definately need itjihad to return to the islamic world, but before that can happen we must overturn the despotic dictatorships and monarchies that oppress our people, murder our intellects, and silence our philosophers.

 

[- PC -]

Thanks Lestat, certainly puts it in perspective

 

[smooking39]

See, this is where I hear so many different things and being a Jewish person.
I get confused

I have been told that being a practicing Jew is in fact being religiously conscience 100% of the time regardless of formal studies - but now you tell me something different.

I dunno

Most Jewish kids that go to school arent religously conscience 100% of the time. They go to synagouge on the weekends and eat kosher. They say prays before they go to bed but at school they act like normal kids.

Even the most religous jewish schools do well in VCE. I dont know of a Jewish school the averages below 32.

 

[just maybe]

Well I think the latest Bible burning story is a beat up and school boys at even the elite private schools get up to much, much worse. However out of interest I wanted to see how Islamic schools perform educationally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_in_Victoria,_Australia_according_to_2005_VCE_results

Compare the results of Jewish schools to the Islamic schools and it is quite obvious there is a gigantic difference between them.
School Median study score Percentage over 40
Bialik College 37 36
Leibler Yavneh College 37 33
Mount Scopus Memorial College 36 29

The Islamic Schools Of Victoria 28 5
King Khalid Islamic College 29 4
East Preston Islamic College 23 0

Now maybe it is a matter of socio-economic status causing this discrepancy
but it sure seems like Islamic culture does not value education (apart from "religious education") very highly leading to many of the symptoms (Islamic terrorism, inability to handle criticism, etc) we see today related to such backwardsness.

Do you ever post anything other than attacks on Islam?

 

[Vandenbergfan]

Their schools shouldn't be receiving government funding - that is both Muslim and jewish. Neither muslims or jews are true Australians they are just here to take what they can get out of our society, their true loyalty lies with the causes they triumph overseas. How a young Australian jew fighting for the Israelis in Lebanon was lauded by the Australian foreign minister baffles me, he should have been facing criminal charges.

Islam is a faith of intolerance and no matter where Muslims go they are the cause of trouble. In western Europe people are paying for the tolerance of their governments most would like to be free of muslims - a people that are not compatible when it comes to living in a liberal modern society.

The desecration of the bible and the harassment of non-Muslim teachers at the said school in the news is just the tip of the iceberg. This country shouldn't have as many muslims as it does, given that there are people from all over the world wanting to come here they would have to constitute the worst type of immigrant - unwilling to learn English, integrate or add anything of value to our society. On the other hand they wish to live in ghettos, behave anti-socially in public places by bring their intolerant attitudes to Australia, be significant players in organised criminal gangs, be a major cause for the fact that we have a terrorist issue in Australia.

I personally blame the Keating Labor Party who opened the door to Lebanese muslims, despite warnings from the maronite christians living in that country as to the type of people they were inviting to Australia, and it was purely done because it was believed they would vote Labor as a bloc.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Islam is a faith of intolerance and no matter where Muslims go they are the cause of trouble. In western Europe people are paying for the tolerance of their governments most would like to be free of muslims - a people that are not compatible when it comes to living in a liberal modern society.

This is utter garbage.

The majority of muslims live peacefully in western societies and are respectful of the laws of the country they reside in.

Their schools shouldn't be receiving government funding - that is both Muslim and jewish.

I agree but Id also add in christian schools or any other private schools.