Roast It's time to ditch the pokies

[flinchfree]

There's exterme wowserism and then there is sensible regulation. Seatbelts, booze buses and speed limits were seen as wowserism thirty years ago. With a significantly lower road toll these things are regarded as a success. Similarly pokies should be regulated. There is a middleground between a free for all and the state putting in safeguards. I think Australia has actually struck the balance pretty well on the whole

We have the regulation.
Many on this thread are talking as though a pokie machine is the devil, and all associated are dirty because of it.
It is to that thinking I responded.

 

[Nuggets73]

Good arguments on both sides here - The stats on Hawthorn's Poker Machine revenue is pretty disheartening, clearly lead the league!
Hopefully we can look at other forms of revenue raising - But to make up $20 million odd isn't going to be easy.

 

[Bikefreak]

I'm not a fan of poker machine hate.
Hate the game, not the player.
If you hate gambling, fine. But know it's as Australian as beer drinking. If you hate that too, well - you can just stick to your church groups and bridge nights.
As citizens, we are asked an awful lot. 40 - 60 hour work weeks, be available to die for your country, pay outrageous amounts for cable telly.
At the end of all the social/political contracts we are signed up for, we get to unwind.
If you don't like booze, don't drink. Don't give me bull crap about it being glamourized in movies, or advertising, or trans-ocean flights by the Aussie cricket team.
If you don't like drugs, want to achieve more with your life, don't do them. Don't blame it on peers, or youth, or any such crap.
Don't like gambling? Fine. Don't do it. All this bull dust about pokies being especially evil is just that. People want to gamble, not be entertained. If they simply wanted entertainment, I guarantee they would find a movie for $12 faaaaar more entertaining. They want to win! In a world where it's hard to see yourself getting out of the financial peg and ladder you are in-on, gambling offers a dream out. That dream allows many to accept their lot. Others don't need it.
Either way, look after your own back yard, I'm fairly sure it's imperfectly tended.

Until we re-allow wowserism to rule, and once again outlaw alcohol, any and all drug use (lets include pharmaceutical shall we....no more ibuprofen for you weakies who don't like headaches and back pain - or are you just bullshitting???), all corporal punishment (lets do it army seargent, talk your men through their issues), psychological manipulation and untruths told by parents to their children to get them to do as theyre told....why? just BECAUSE!!!, being taught by science our rocky planet was a meeting of rock and ice and gas and gravity billions of years ago - and instead re-institute compulsory education by schools and families that planet earth was created in 168 hours by a non-corporeal being, men can have relations without clothes with other men - women will perpetually have a pass on this one regardless of said wowserism, our first land owners are in fact human beings - not some other lower species.......

I dunno, which of these hurt our society more?
Which attitudes still pervade our thoughts?
I'm putting pokies at the very bottom of the problem list.
But go ahead, cry about spinners and lights and lost income.

I just ask this. Go on, fix it ALL please.
Your fixation with pokies is illogical - captain.

Wow....you are giving a lot of opinions here....while telling us our opinions and dislike of pokies and the associated carnage is misdirected. Righto.

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[Todman]

I have a good friend who, like you I'd imagine, is very proud of the way she goes about her job, and is very, very good at it having being awarded 2 'Georges' - but her stories are bloody tragic mate.

I suggest you stop listening to her stories. They only upset you.

 

[Todman]

Better to pay some tax on extra revenue than not have it at all.

If you are paying CGT then you are doing something right!

 

[flinchfree]

Wow....you are giving a lot of opinions here....while telling us our opinions and dislike of pokies and the associated carnage is misdirected. Righto.

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One opinion mate.
Care to tell us how many times you've offered yours in this thread?

 

[Bikefreak]

One opinion mate.
Care to tell us how many times you've offered yours in this thread?

Sorry...didn't realise there was a post limit in this thread.

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[Blaze Storm]

If hawks sell their machines, people will still use them. There's no shortage of people wanting pokies licences.

I suggest anyone against us profiting from the machines (rather than some other faceless organisation) ask themselves what they're REALLY thinking will happen if we got out of pokies?

This isn't like a boycott, where decreased demand will lead to decreased supply. The numbers of licences are already controlled and demand is high. People will continue losing money on these things regardless of what we do. Therefore, I'd prefer that money go to a worthwhile cause like the HFC, which puts it into engaging with the fans and members, rather than lining the pockets of some fat cat investor.

 

[Brishawk]

If hawks sell their machines, people will still use them. There's no shortage of people wanting pokies licences.

I suggest anyone against us profiting from the machines (rather than some other faceless organisation) ask themselves what they're REALLY thinking will happen if we got out of pokies?

This isn't like a boycott, where decreased demand will lead to decreased supply. The numbers of licences are already controlled and demand is high. People will continue losing money on these things regardless of what we do. Therefore, I'd prefer that money go to a worthwhile cause like the HFC, which puts it into engaging with the fans and members, rather than lining the pockets of some fat cat investor.

IF pokies are ever to go from our society then it takes individuals and companies to make a public stand against pokies. Right now a Hawthorn stand against pokies would have no meaningful impact on supply or demand. However if you consider the history of the abolition of slavery you can see how seemingly purely moral choices cam amount to cultural change across the entire globe.

The first laws to limit and/or prohibit slavery were introduced in the 3rd century BC but largely the movement to end Slavery began in roughly the year 960 when the Republic of Venice (a city state) passed a law prohibiting the slave trade in Venice. This placed Venice at a disadvantage to other city-states and nations/empires who employed slave labour and had virtually no impact on the supply or demand for slaves. However over time other cities, nations and organisations such as the Catholic Church spoke out and/or prohibited slavery. Today slavery is illegal in every country in the world. I would hope that ending pokies will occur quicker than the abolition of slavery however it won't happen if influential organisations like Football clubs endorse them via ownership.

 

[Bikefreak]

IF pokies are ever to go from our society then it takes individuals and companies to make a public stand against pokies. Right now a Hawthorn stand against pokies would have no meaningful impact on supply or demand. However if you consider the history of the abolition of slavery you can see how seemingly purely moral choices cam amount to cultural change across the entire globe.

The first laws to limit and/or prohibit slavery were introduced in the 3rd century BC but largely the movement to end Slavery began in roughly the year 960 when the Republic of Venice (a city state) passed a law prohibiting the slave trade in Venice. This placed Venice at a disadvantage to other city-states and nations/empires who employed slave labour and had virtually no impact on the supply or demand for slaves. However over time other cities, nations and organisations such as the Catholic Church spoke out and/or prohibited slavery. Today slavery is illegal in every country in the world. I would hope that ending pokies will occur quicker than the abolition of slavery however it won't happen if influential organisations like Football clubs endorse them via ownership.

Or if the excuse/reason is used..."oh well if we dont do it someone else will".

"Someone else" is doing all the other nasty not so nice things that are f*cking up our society too.

Do we just keep galloping onwards into the abyss?

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[flinchfree]

IF pokies are ever to go from our society then it takes individuals and companies to make a public stand against pokies. Right now a Hawthorn stand against pokies would have no meaningful impact on supply or demand. However if you consider the history of the abolition of slavery you can see how seemingly purely moral choices cam amount to cultural change across the entire globe.

The first laws to limit and/or prohibit slavery were introduced in the 3rd century BC but largely the movement to end Slavery began in roughly the year 960 when the Republic of Venice (a city state) passed a law prohibiting the slave trade in Venice. This placed Venice at a disadvantage to other city-states and nations/empires who employed slave labour and had virtually no impact on the supply or demand for slaves. However over time other cities, nations and organisations such as the Catholic Church spoke out and/or prohibited slavery. Today slavery is illegal in every country in the world. I would hope that ending pokies will occur quicker than the abolition of slavery however it won't happen if influential organisations like Football clubs endorse them via ownership.

Not sure I fully understand Bris. If we are to make anything unlawful by way of your slavery comparison, isn't it gambling you want abolished, not pokies?
It's not as though some forms of slavery were ok, while others were not......

 

[Randy Campbell]

It's nice that people want to save people from themselves.
But can one person name an industry that makes money and doesn't take advantage of someone or something?

 

[flinchfree]

It's nice that people want to save people from themselves.
But can one person name an industry that makes money and doesn't take advantage of someone or something?

Oooh, oooh, that's me.
I feel diddled by the car company who sold me my last ride.......I know if it wasn't for the advertising, fancy colors, high pressure salesmen, and fake value by way of 'discount frenzy', I'm fairly sure I could have saved 10 grand. That's a lot of larceny in my mind.
How about food of questionable nutritional value sold unmercilessly to my children and my less than strong willpower to refuse?
I could go and on and on....many would say I already have..

Could someone not just state a 'study' by some dude, but tell me what they see that is more evil and unconscionable (sic?) about a pokie machine over any other gambling?

 

[Brishawk]

Not sure I fully understand Bris. If we are to make anything unlawful by way of your slavery comparison, isn't it gambling you want abolished, not pokies?
It's not as though some forms of slavery were ok, while others were not......

Pokies present a unique form of 'Gambling'. They are designed to attract and hold problem gamblers. Pokies are the manifestation of years of research into what lures in people and lead them to addiction. They are a digital drug for the brain and they are not truly games of chance in the strictest interpretation and nor can they ever be mastered with skill or research (where in theory you could back every winner in sports betting or horses that cannot happen in pokies). Online betting agencies that specialise in sports betting and horses are following the same path so in time I may change my argument however the distinction but right now I do see them as different.

 

[Brishawk]

It's nice that people want to save people from themselves.
But can one person name an industry that makes money and doesn't take advantage of someone or something?

Pokies are like giving away a free dose of methodone with every purchase of a product. People think they are buying the product (entertainment) but what they are really buying is an addiction waiting to happen. This is entirely by design of the pokies manufacturers.

 

[flinchfree]

Pokies present a unique form of 'Gambling'. They are designed to attract and hold problem gamblers. Pokies are the manifestation of years of research into what lures in people and lead them to addiction. They are a digital drug for the brain and they are not truly games of chance in the strictest interpretation and nor can they ever be mastered with skill or research (where in theory you could back every winner in sports betting or horses that cannot happen in pokies). Online betting agencies that specialise in sports betting and horses are following the same path so in time I may change my argument however the distinction but right now I do see them as different.

I get what you're saying....but really, all that means is that as an industry, just like every other industry, they have spent considerable time and effort in working out what people like about the experience most, and give it to them?
Hasn't Coke spent ridiculous R&D on how to fill our every cavity filled tooths desire? Isn't sugar listed by the AMA and most medical fraternities as the no.1 health risk known? It causes not just diabetes, but cancer, arthritis, as well as innumerable other health issues?
Are you ready to knock out Coke, or the whole soda industry?
There's no drug to the brain reactions going on here?

The rest of your argument I don't agree with, though you are equally entitled to have it.
It has been shown that in every game of chance that has more than two possible outcomes, you will never predict the outcomes more than not over any length of time.
Do pokies have even worse odds than many other games of chance? Probably.
How do they stack up to the Lotto?
Or finding true love on a dating forum?
Or the odds of you reliably knowing you will live longer if you run 3km every day and eat nothing but organic?

 

[Bikefreak]

Coke is called Coke for a reason....it used to be the real thing.

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[Brishawk]

I get what you're saying....but really, all that means is that as an industry, just like every other industry, they have spent considerable time and effort in working out what people like about the experience most, and give it to them?
Hasn't Coke spent ridiculous R&D on how to fill our every cavity filled tooths desire? Isn't sugar listed by the AMA and most medical fraternities as the no.1 health risk known? It causes not just diabetes, but cancer, arthritis, as well as innumerable other health issues?
Are you ready to knock out Coke, or the whole soda industry?
There's no drug to the brain reactions going on here?

The rest of your argument I don't agree with, though you are equally entitled to have it.
It has been shown that in every game of chance that has more than two possible outcomes, you will never predict the outcomes more than not over any length of time.
Do pokies have even worse odds than many other games of chance? Probably.
How do they stack up to the Lotto?
Or finding true love on a dating forum?
Or the odds of you reliably knowing you will live longer if you run 3km every day and eat nothing but organic?

There are plenty of people who have long term positive return from betting on Horses and sports. There are none from pokies. You cannot win on pokies in the long term by any means other than 'cheating' i.e. obtain the precise algorithm used to produce the outcome and tract the internal pseudo random number generator somehow. People were able to successfully predict Keno outcomes but the process has now changed to take in other variables to prevent this. So clearly there is forms of gambling that are not random chance but are a contest of judgment between a bookie and a punter.

Human beings can't survive without sugar of some kind or another so its not the same at all. Sugar will be more regulated than it presently is. Advertising restrictions will be increased as they were for cigarettes and alcohol. This is a completely different debate I don't feel a need to go into in this thread.

 

[Randy Campbell]

Pokies are like giving away a free dose of methodone with every purchase of a product. People think they are buying the product (entertainment) but what they are really buying is an addiction waiting to happen. This is entirely by design of the pokies manufacturers.

I know that.
But, name an industry that does not take advantage ?

 

[Randy Campbell]

Why does everyones problems have to be because of someone else?

 

[Gralin]

How much of the $22mil ended up in Hawks pockets, are the hawks currently break even on their investment in pokies, there is a lot more to it than we turned a profit this year so we can get rid of pokies and still be successful.

I'd be happy if there were no poker machines in the state, but there are, they are legal and I doubt that will change any time soon, I also don't see the club getting out of the business any time soon

 

[Brishawk]

I know that.
But, name an industry that does not take advantage ?

You will have to define 'take advantage of' as its not clear that any industry except cigarettes and drug dealing specifically set out to give you a medically verifiable addition.

 

[Brishawk]

Why does every ones problems have to be because of someone else?

Who says it does? But Government regulates many things. Should Heroin be legal? People getting addicted is their own fault, right?

 

[Davo23]

Wow....you are giving a lot of opinions here....while telling us our opinions and dislike of pokies and the associated carnage is misdirected. Righto.

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Hey, mate, I don't think pokies are as bad as some of the stories out there.
There's a narrative that states that hundreds of people are out of control, losing thousands of dollars, ruining families, losing their homes, etc. The narrative is a convenient one for opponents of pokies, but reality is not that bad.

Certainly, there are gamblers who are regular pokie players, some are addicts, but the studies on them indicate that these are people with other problems, gambling being only one of many issues.

The most common patrons are people on a night out. They'll have a meal and then have time on the pokies.

 

[flinchfree]

You will have to define 'take advantage of' as its not clear that any industry except cigarettes and drug dealing specifically set out to give you a medically verifiable addition.

Sorry, I know you'll hate this.
Sugar is absolutely addicting. And it's in everything, from bread to bon bons.
Is it easier giving it up than some others? Sure. But I gave up ciggies in one effort, 20 years ago, and haven't smoked since.
Stopped smoking pot a little after then )) because I couldn't motivate to do anything with my life with a bong around.
And I largely avoid heavy sugared foods cause I hate being fat.

I had lots of problems, my dad left me and mum when I was seven, mum sent me to live with grandparents when I was 12 because she need time to work on her own issues, yada yada yada.
It was up to me to make choices in the end that would give me the life I wanted.
I guess I'm a big believer in that.