James Hird's Supposed Lack Of Knowledge?

[dymot]

While he may genuinely not know what went on, it is hard to believe seeming he is the key manager of the players at Essendon football.

Given this fact, it is arguable that he has been negligent by disassociating himself from this facet of the organisation and has to take responsibility for it.

Considering the penalties given to other footballing identities in matters where they claim no knowledge like Tippet, if there has been wrongs then Hird must be punished in the same way for consistency. Not to mention the fact that people in bthe corporate sector suffer the same fate like Richard Pratt was going to before charges were dropped because of ill health.

It doesn't matter who it is or how much supposed integrity the person may have. The fact is Hird's job was to know what was going on and naievity should not and cannot be held as an excuse. The AFL has set this precedent.

So even if he is not directly involved, do you think James Hird should be punished for his role in the fiasco if Essendon were found to do wrong?

In my humble opinion he should because as we have seen with Tippet, relying on other staff member's assertions is not a defence and when you are held to be responsible for the operations of an organisation you are compelled to know what is happening at all times!

Thoughts?

 

[The Royal Sampler]

He said on camera yesterday that he's looking forward to the investigation being conducted and proving they've done nothing wrong.

If that's the case, why alert ASADA and the AFL? Is he simply thinking "we've done nothing wrong, it was all Robinson and Dank, and we've gotten rid of them now"? Seems a bit contradictory...

 

[Tas]

I am absolutely convinced Hird would have no knowledge and would pass a lie detector test.

He got a bloke in who said he could fix players up (get them fit and within certain weight levels) within the rules. He has worked with a number of clubs previously, he has no reason to believe otherwise. That guy if he was using dodgy products wouldn't advertise it.

I think the worst case scenario is that Dank might have used banned substances to get players to their normal levels, in that case assuming the drug themselves are clean, it would not hurt the player(s) in question as it is only abnormal levels which are dangerous.

It would be wrong, but in his eyes he is probably looking at it as healing the player who has for whatever reasons lower levels of hormones, testosterone, etc.

 

[Tas]

He said on camera yesterday that he's looking forward to the investigation being conducted and proving they've done nothing wrong.

If that's the case, why alert ASADA and the AFL? Is he simply thinking "we've done nothing wrong, it was all Robinson and Dank, and we've gotten rid of them now"? Seems a bit contradictory...

I think they found out the federal police were investigating him, some trafficker probably rolled over and named Dank and said he was supplying Dank for the club, which is the reason to come forward and open the doors to investigation.

If they wait until the police storm the premises then the assumption is going to be they are in on it and it would be a lot harder to play the innocent hand.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Hird not knowing what was going on is quite plausible, but not so sure if it means he should be unaccountable if shit gets real.

 

[Tex Support]

I think they found out the federal police were investigating him, some trafficker probably rolled over and named Dank and said he was supplying Dank for the club, which is the reason to come forward and open the doors to investigation.

If they wait until the police storm the premises then the assumption is going to be they are in on it and it would be a lot harder to play the innocent hand.

One thing I've learned from watching my own club this off-season is a supporter can never be 100% certain that their club wouldnt do anything dodgy.

The same "why the f-ck did we agree to a dodgy deal with the Tippett camp?" question applies for Bombers fans asking "why the f-ck would we push the limits like this?" or "why the f-ck didnt we do our homework before hiring such a questionable character?"

Its a sh-t feeling knowing that your club tried to bend/break/exploit rules with your money.

 

[jko'neal]

He said on camera yesterday that he's looking forward to the investigation being conducted and proving they've done nothing wrong.

If that's the case, why alert ASADA and the AFL? Is he simply thinking "we've done nothing wrong, it was all Robinson and Dank, and we've gotten rid of them now"? Seems a bit contradictory...

That's right, if they in fact have done nothing wrong. Wouldn't the main thing to do as staff and a club is all stick together to back each other up? You wouldn't start sacking people until things were proven to be not legit, not before the investigation has started.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

He said on camera yesterday that he's looking forward to the investigation being conducted and proving they've done nothing wrong.

If that's the case, why alert ASADA and the AFL? Is he simply thinking "we've done nothing wrong, it was all Robinson and Dank, and we've gotten rid of them now"? Seems a bit contradictory...

At this stage it seems to me to be a genuine case of "we're not sure what went on, best to get those with the ability to investogate to do so". They have questions, they want answers, and an internal investigation into something like this before then deciding whether or not to bring in outsiders both would be wrong and would look wrong.

I think people are surprised, because for the first time in footy, politics, or just about any other field in many decades this seems to not be a cover-up - but actually trying to find out what happened. That is not how the world operates.

 

[THRILLHO]

Honestly, I'd be a bit miffed if Brad Scott didn't at least have a cursory understanding of what North's sports science guys are doing, specifically Steve Saunders. It points to a lack of control, which is the opposite of what a head coach should have. The head coach should be overseeing everything and delegating as necessary.

Hird's denial doesn't pass the sniff test, for me. Pretty hard to believe that a head coach doesn't fully know the full extent of a strength and conditioning program.

Of course, I could learn that all SS departments work individually and isolated from the coaching staff in all clubs, but that would be akin to a Principal having no idea what the Maths department is doing all year.

 

[RandB]

Hird not knowing what was going on is quite plausible, but not so sure if it means he should be unaccountable if shit gets real.

Agreed.

Without meaning to be disingenuous to Bombers supporters when Hird came on board he had limited coaching experience and Thompson was there to hold his hand. IMO Hird is a good guy but I'm not sure he had the complete grasp of what he was submerging himself into. There's a bit more to it than sitting in a box and barking out orders at training.

As clubs grow, you need to be on top of all aspects of FD operations and anything related. You dont micro-manage but you have to be aware of what is going on at all times. Blind faith is a killer and you have to be pro-active and I'm not sure Hird was.

If he cops it big time then it would be very unfortunate because (unless something comes out to the contrary) I think he is a pretty ethical person within footy but on one level or another he hasn't done his job.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

The same "why the f-ck did we agree to a dodgy deal with the Tippett camp?" question applies for Bombers fans asking "why the f-ck would we push the limits like this?" or "why the f-ck didnt we do our homework before hiring such a questionable character?"

Putting two and two together and getting 187, it seems that peptides may have been administered in order to bring abnormally low testosterone/HGH levels up to normal, and in doing so the expectation was that with normal levels they would avoid detection. Thus achieving the Lance Armstrong style "level playing field".

 

[markm106]

I think a lot of trust is put in the sport science guys and the methods which they use. It could be possible the coach would not know. He may have been told this is all legit and took their word for it. However I would like to think the coach and football department were up to date with what players were taking especially supplements.
Who knows though it could be a systematic program where everyone was aware and know are in full denial.
One thing for sure is that these guys will be reviewed and thier practices at all clubs from all sports.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Thompson one would think would be closer to it all

 

[Nostradumbass]

Negligence.

 

[ablett]

Seriously some of you blokes live in fantasy land.
Of course Hird would know what was going on, he was a player not long ago & would've taken stuff as well.

Hasn't the Lance Armstrong debacle taught anyone a lesson in reality of the what happens at an elite sports level?

How naive are you?

Denial is always the first reaction.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

He said on camera yesterday that he's looking forward to the investigation being conducted and proving they've done nothing wrong.

If that's the case, why alert ASADA and the AFL? Is he simply thinking "we've done nothing wrong, it was all Robinson and Dank, and we've gotten rid of them now"? Seems a bit contradictory...

I guess you don't need to ask this question any more hey

 

[Chewy]

I think it's funny the way James Hird has cultivated a media persona where everyone thinks he is a saint. Why is it that people think he can do no wrong? Is it his boyish, angelic face and flowing gold locks of hair? Is it because of his heroic deeds on the football field, the sticky hands and the deadly left boot?

If Hirdy did not know all about these injections, I would question his competence as Essendon's head coach. Of course he knew. This was a systemic program that involved all players signing waivers. This wasn't some dodgy dude giving pills to a couple of players behind the bowls club.

Everyone at Essendon is running for cover. They're playing musical chairs and OOPS- the music has stopped and Dean Robinson and Stephen Dank have been left hanging...

 

[Black Diamond]

I accept that Hird may not have a full grasp of the specific scientific principles, but there is no way he had a complete lack of knowledge of the club's conduct.

 

[RandB]

Agreed.

Without meaning to be disingenuous to Bombers supporters when Hird came on board he had limited coaching experience and Thompson was there to hold his hand. IMO Hird is a good guy but I'm not sure he had the complete grasp of what he was submerging himself into. There's a bit more to it than sitting in a box and barking out orders at training.

As clubs grow, you need to be on top of all aspects of FD operations and anything related. You dont micro-manage but you have to be aware of what is going on at all times. Blind faith is a killer and you have to be pro-active and I'm not sure Hird was.

If he cops it big time then it would be very unfortunate because (unless something comes out to the contrary) I think he is a pretty ethical person within footy but on one level or another he hasn't done his job.

Then again there's this...

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/es...er-shane-charter/story-fnelctok-1226572461168

 

[Ron The Bear]

Hird not knowing what was going on is quite plausible, but not so sure if it means he should be unaccountable if shit gets real.

Agree with this. Otherwise he's a better liar than he was a footballer.

 

[Blue since 72]

I am absolutely convinced Hird would have no knowledge and would pass a lie detector test.

He got a bloke in who said he could fix players up (get them fit and within certain weight levels) within the rules. He has worked with a number of clubs previously, he has no reason to believe otherwise.

This.

People were employed on good money and in good faith to do a job so unless part of Hird's role was to micro manage the sport science department I don't doubt for a second that he has no knowledge of the alleged use of banned substances.

As far as I'm concerned people claiming some massive conspiracy involving numerous people across the organisation are reaching. The media, as usual, are pushing the agenda's here with inference and innuendo with no regard to anyone's reputation they might sully along the way and, as usual, the public are lapping it up without engaging their brains and looking at other possibilities.

Shit, nobody has actually presented any evidence yet that banned substances were even used.

The media know exactly what they're doing but the rest of us need to take a breath, turn the brain on and stop hanging people before we know anything.

 

[Call Me Cake]

Except this is an open investigation voluntarily pushed by the club to involve the AFL and ASADA in finding out whether anything wrong has actually happened or not.

NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.

Unless anything actually pertains to otherwise, this entire question is complete horse-shit.

 

[TerryWallet]

I think it's funny the way James Hird has cultivated a media persona where everyone thinks he is a saint. Why is it that people think he can do no wrong? Is it his boyish, angelic face and flowing gold locks of hair? Is it because of his heroic deeds on the football field, the sticky hands and the deadly left boot?

Either Hirdy knew about these injections and he is not the saint that everyone portrays him to be, or else he knew nothing about it, in which case, I would question his competence as Essendon's head coach.

Of course he knew. This was a systemic program that involved all players signing waivers. This wasn't some dodgy dude giving players substances behind the bowls club.

Everyone at Essendon is running for cover. They're playing musical chairs and OOPS- the music has stopped and Dean Robinson and Stephen Dank have been left hanging...

Spot on. Exactly what i been saying in another thread. Bomber Thompson too.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

A few clubs would be hoping this is not proven, as the spotlight will turn to them, and their players bulking up considerably over the 2006-2007 per-season

 

[Blue since 72]

Seriously some of you blokes live in fantasy land.
Of course Hird would know what was going on, he was a player not long ago & would've taken stuff as well.

Hasn't the Lance Armstrong debacle taught anyone a lesson in reality of the what happens at an elite sports level?

How naive are you?

Denial is always the first reaction.

I think it's funny the way James Hird has cultivated a media persona where everyone thinks he is a saint. Why is it that people think he can do no wrong? Is it his boyish, angelic face and flowing gold locks of hair? Is it because of his heroic deeds on the football field, the sticky hands and the deadly left boot?

Either Hirdy knew about these injections and he is not the saint that everyone portrays him to be, or else he knew nothing about it, in which case, I would question his competence as Essendon's head coach.

Of course he knew. This was a systemic program that involved all players signing waivers. This wasn't some dodgy dude giving players substances behind the bowls club.

Everyone at Essendon is running for cover. They're playing musical chairs and OOPS- the music has stopped and Dean Robinson and Stephen Dank have been left hanging...

You're missing the point. Nobody is arguing he didn't know about the injections, they're saying he didn't know they were being injected with banned substances (which has yet to be proven).

And by the way why is it that everyone is happy to believe Reimer's comments that they were asked to sign waivers yet Mcveigh's account that they were actually consent forms requested by the players is dismissed out of hand?

It could turn out the stuff injected is banned or it could turn out that everything was above board but either way a balanced assessment would make for more useful discussion.

But then our moral outrage wouldn't get a good airing would it.