Coach John Longmire - Part IV has resigned

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We've been poor in recent times rebounding from our defensive 50 and I thought that is what drove the move of Logan back and Campbell also playing back.

Logan is more mobile than Hamling and Francis and could take a medium or a tall, thereby freeing up Blakey who had more license to run off and Campbell could also use his kicking to advantage on the rebound.
Worth noting that Logan and Blakey lead our marks with 7 apiece.
It just seemed we wanted to be more flexible down back, so for example Florent moved further up the ground and it enabled greater options, in an attacking sense down back.

It also allowed a different dimension up fwd, with 2 talls plus Parker and Hayward who both impacted the scoreboard.
I would have preferred for Parker to rotate more mid/fwd with Heeney and Warner although at least when the moves were made in the last qtr they were effective.

And also happy for Logan to go fwd last qtr to chase the win and terrific kick from him to nail a goal in that qtr.

We were coming off a shocking loss, so rather that status quo, Longmire identified potential solutions and although we fell over the line I thought there was a greater freedom and Horse was prepared to move the magnets prior to and during the game and deserves recognition for that.
 
Logan being played back is an old move of Horses he used to do with Reid. Reid used to struggle down back unless he was the extra body that could take intercept marks. Horse has even thrown Logan in the ruck a few times. I hope that Horse is not trying to turn him into a swingman / utility.
Logan has to stay as a forward who can roam out of the fifty and use his mobility. I don't see any reason to play him as a defender when we had a fit Hamling or Francis in the reserves.
Horse is probably a bit set in his ways and his persistence with Mills over the last few games I didn't think was in the best interests of the team or Mills.
The dramatic drop off in form over the past six weeks or so can be down to injuries and maybe player fatigue as well but the coaching and man management has to come into consideration.
Last night was a great fifteen minutes of football in the last quarter. It may be papering over the cracks for a week or hopefully it will kick us back into top form.
On the fence with Horse at the moment his inability to turn the tide when other teams have got a jump on us (excluding last night) and poor starts is happening far too often.
 

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I get and respect that people need a place to vent after the GF, and that some genuinely believe that Horse should be moved on - and that the right place for that is the “sack Horse” thread.

But I also don’t want that thread to become a place for discussion of all things Horse. I am bumping this thread for people who want to talk about Horse on the basis that he will be coaching for at least 2025.

I watched his club awards speech. A few interesting things stood out for me:
  • He has a genuinely warm relationship with Parks, which is testament to his people management skills - as I am sure that Parks is still not happy about being dropped for part of this year and essentially having to search for a new home for future guarantees. This is also testament to Parks’ professionalism and leadership. This will be missed.
  • There was a air of defiance in his speech by telling people not to look for black and white answers, and that the “why” for the GF performance will probably never be known. I thought there were some good truths in that for me as a supporter, though I also don’t think it hurts to explore the “why” even if it may never be fully known.
  • His speech made me optimistic about next year. I reckon it would have built some steel in the playing group before they take their break as well.
  • I have a sneaking suspicion he may only plan to coach one more year at the swans, especially if he wins a premiership next year (and I reckon there is a good probability that the decision may be taken out of his hands if he does not). He referenced his son’s text about all the set backs he experienced in his career, missing GF wins through injuries and form, only to win a premiership with his last match playing AFL. There would be some nice symmetry if he could go out with a final GF win after 4 losses. There is also no coach I would back more to take us to a GF next year than Horse, so I hope he gets his chance at redemption.
I hope he gets some fresh new perspectives to help him next year. Dew would have been great, hopefully someone else can come in.

An out there thought for me would be getting access to a member of Craig Bellamy’s coaching panel. Probably not full time giving NRL is so different, but boy does that club know how to win minor and major premierships.
 
How can it be optimistic if there not willing to find the cause of the problem in the GF and just go with the unknown

That doesn’t fill me as a supporter with any confidence and they are taking it as it was just another game theme.

The way I read it they are satisfied with the year and the gf is another of game.
 
Punts said:
How can it be optimistic if there not willing to find the cause of the problem in the GF and just go with the unknown

That doesn’t fill me as a supporter with any confidence and they are taking it as it was just another game theme.

The way I read it they are satisfied with the year and the gf is another of game.
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If you truly think that then you are not as smart as I thought.
Most supporters like me are struggling with the year and the catastrophic GF.

Imagine being Horse. He will be looking for answers. To say he is not willing is dumb. Of course he will be looking for answers. Just because he has not delivered them to you does not mean he is not seeking answers. I imagine he is looking at everything including himself. He strikes me as a man that would happily step aside now if he genuinely thought he is the problem.

You read it wrong. This is an elite club that does almost everything elite. Except GFs.

I think you are just a trigger happy poster that likes to hit people when they are down. Anyone can do that.
 
Punts said:
How can it be optimistic if there not willing to find the cause of the problem in the GF and just go with the unknown

That doesn’t fill me as a supporter with any confidence and they are taking it as it was just another game theme.

The way I read it they are satisfied with the year and the gf is another of game.
Click to expand...
I hear you. I first really didn’t like it when he said you have to stop asking “why” it happened and start asking “what” went wrong and needs to be better and “how” to do that.

But then I started thinking that if you define the X things from the game that need to be better, and then build confidence in how you can improve those, and get to work - then does the “why” really matter anymore? At least I thought that was Horse’s point…
 
Horse has a lot of great attributes and he's definitely able to form great relationships with his players. But I feel as though the team's weakness is a reflection of his own weakness.

He has the 95% covered, but he hasn't demonstrated that he has that extra 5% that will get us over the line. I feel as though Chris Scott, Clarko and now even Fagan have shown they're capable of identifying the issues and are able to address them. Horse hasn't shown he's capable or even willing to do so. To suggest we shouldn't be asking why is strange. It's his job to ask the why.

IMO, there are 3 main factors as to why we failed:
1. Game plan - our defensive deficiencies showed themselves regularly throughout the season and we failed to address it adequately.
2. Personnel - we don't have enough players in the team that we can rely on when the chips are down. We have too many players who look great when things are going our way, but it's the same few that roll up their sleeves whenever we need to dig ourselves out of a hole. Those weak links need to be weeded out.
3. Too many players being played out of position or in positions that don't take advantage of their strengths and it leads to an inbalance. Too many players in the backline who are defensive liabilities and too many talls / slow players in the forward line. Same goes for the midfield, but that's a bit of a harder one to solve.
 
GoTheSwannies said:
IMO, there are 3 main factors as to why we failed:
1. Game plan - our defensive deficiencies showed themselves regularly throughout the season and we failed to address it adequately.
2. Personnel - we don't have enough players in the team that we can rely on when the chips are down. We have too many players who look great when things are going our way, but it's the same few that roll up their sleeves whenever we need to dig ourselves out of a hole. Those weak links need to be weeded out.
3. Too many players being played out of position or in positions that don't take advantage of their strengths and it leads to an inbalance. Too many players in the backline who are defensive liabilities and too many talls / slow players in the forward line. Same goes for the midfield, but that's a bit of a harder one to solve.
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In the aftermath of the grand final. With hindsight I was thinking we should have picked Adams to strengthen our inside midfield. And we needed to pick a few small forwards who can run rather than 3 tall forwards. I was questioning how fit Logan was as well as guys like Papley and Mcinerney. And whether lesser players could have contributed more.

Though before the game I was happy with the team we selected. And expected us to be competitive in a free flowing game and hopefully outrun them later in the match. I felt like we had weaknesses but we got to this point playing that way.

So I agree with your analysis of what went wrong. Though it is hard to know the alternate reality if we had changed things structurally during the season. But it will be interesting to see if we change our approach next season.
 
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SeanM said:
In the aftermath of the grand final. With hindsight I was thinking we should have picked Adams to strengthen our inside midfield. And we needed to pick a few small forwards who can run rather than 3 tall forwards. I was questioning how fit Logan was as well as guys like Papley and Mcinerney. And whether lesser players could have contributed more.

Though before the game I was happy with the team we selected. And expected us to be competitive in a free flowing game and hopefully outrun them later in the match. I felt like we had weaknesses but we got to this point playing that way.

So I agree with your analysis of what went wrong. Though it is hard to know the alternate reality if we had changed things structurally during the season. But it will be interesting to see if we change our approach next season.
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I feel it would not have mattered who was out there lol we had by far the best injury run of any other side.
 
SeanM said:
In the aftermath of the grand final. With hindsight I was thinking we should have picked Adams to strengthen our inside midfield. And we needed to pick a few small forwards who can run rather than 3 tall forwards. I was questioning how fit Logan was as well as guys like Papley and Mcinerney. And whether lesser players could have contributed more.

Though before the game I was happy with the team we selected. And expected us to be competitive in a free flowing game and hopefully outrun them later in the match. I felt like we had weaknesses but we got to this point playing that way.

So I agree with your analysis of what went wrong. Though it is hard to know the alternate reality if we had changed things structurally during the season. But it will be interesting to see if we change our approach next season.
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As i said in the lead up Adams had to play
 
Heeney2Franklin said:
So wasnt sure if this was more suited in the GF thread or here but word from the fallout continues that Longmire prepared for this GF "excessively" so in parts.

Did he go to much in the other direction this time around??
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I think there is something in this. What is no doubt one of the hardest parts of coaching is understanding that what worked for you as a player will not work for all the players you coach.

I suspect Horse was one of the hardest working players of his generation, and also was able to return from injury (and probably play through injury) better than most.

I also suspect that he was coaching 23 versions of himself on GF day, they would have played well.

I reckon he just need to make the GF less of a deal. If the players were just randomly woken up one morning and told they were playing a GF at 2.30pm, they would have probably done a better job.

But I also think the players are getting off easy in the aftermath. Nothing your coach does or doesn’t do should prevent you from marking up your man who is running through for an uncontested mark.

If the problem was Horse being too involved, maybe part of the solution is putting it on the players to work out by themselves why they didn’t turn up, and come up with a plan for next time that the coaches can abide by.

With such a young list, I reckon Horse and the coaches may have overindexed on player leadership. Time to step back and put it on them to work it out, and be more accountable for when it doesn’t.
 

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RedBloodBlackSwan said:
I get and respect that people need a place to vent after the GF, and that some genuinely believe that Horse should be moved on - and that the right place for that is the “sack Horse” thread.

But I also don’t want that thread to become a place for discussion of all things Horse. I am bumping this thread for people who want to talk about Horse on the basis that he will be coaching for at least 2025.

I watched his club awards speech. A few interesting things stood out for me:
  • He has a genuinely warm relationship with Parks, which is testament to his people management skills - as I am sure that Parks is still not happy about being dropped for part of this year and essentially having to search for a new home for future guarantees. This is also testament to Parks’ professionalism and leadership. This will be missed.
  • There was a air of defiance in his speech by telling people not to look for black and white answers, and that the “why” for the GF performance will probably never be known. I thought there were some good truths in that for me as a supporter, though I also don’t think it hurts to explore the “why” even if it may never be fully known.
  • His speech made me optimistic about next year. I reckon it would have built some steel in the playing group before they take their break as well.
  • I have a sneaking suspicion he may only plan to coach one more year at the swans, especially if he wins a premiership next year (and I reckon there is a good probability that the decision may be taken out of his hands if he does not). He referenced his son’s text about all the set backs he experienced in his career, missing GF wins through injuries and form, only to win a premiership with his last match playing AFL. There would be some nice symmetry if he could go out with a final GF win after 4 losses. There is also no coach I would back more to take us to a GF next year than Horse, so I hope he gets his chance at redemption.
I hope he gets some fresh new perspectives to help him next year. Dew would have been great, hopefully someone else can come in.

An out there thought for me would be getting access to a member of Craig Bellamy’s coaching panel. Probably not full time giving NRL is so different, but boy does that club know how to win minor and major premierships.
Click to expand...

Just on that final premiership, he has admitted he wasn’t fit to play that day but told the coach he was good to go

Kind of ironic given his penchant for playing injured players in GFs
 
Horse has coached a lot of good players .

Look out the top 15 for most games played he has coached 11 of them .

He also had Lance Franklin an all time great then 200 plus gamers in Hanners, Heeney, Rampe, Lloyd could go on.

Coaching must be a fraction easier if you have coached just about every club great in the teams history .

Maybe he just isn't that great a coach just had great sides .Expecting him to bring some amazing tactics or ideas might be a bridge too far and why premierships are hard to win for him :
 
bedford said:
As i said in the lead up Adams had to play
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I have 1 question for Horse.
If you didn't trust Adams to even be an emergency in the last two games, one of which was the exact reason we recruited him, then what are you going to do with him for the next two years that he is contracted?

I just want answer to that. I know it will prove that we failed by recruiting him in the first place or we failed once again at team selection.

I can't see a way going forward with Adams on the list, where this will finish without tears.

Mistakes, mistakes, mistakes.

We have made too many at selection in our biggest games & upon reflection, we have made too many with our recruiting.

One name haunts me as a supporter & it would have gone a long way to addressing two problems that the 2024 season threw at us.

CALEB SERONG!

a) we wouldn't have had a need for Adams

b) solved some of our hardness in the middle issues for our GFs of 2022 & 2024.
 
KingV23 said:
Imagine Clarko coaching the list we have.
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He would have multiple charges for bullying or for the harassment of players who failed again in a big game because they have only been used to getting pats on the back from the club so as not to hurt their feelings.

Make no mistake, Clarko wouldn't have coped with such a timid list.
He would have loved Ladhams for at least trying to hit something. He would have missed, but the failed attempt alone by Ladhams would have made Clarko a fan compared to the other gentle souls.

Clarko has taken the last hard player from our recruitment of players since Horse was given the gig.
 
Clarko and Hardwick deserve credit for what they did with their lists, but it also important to put their records in perspective.

They each started out with terrible records, with multiple bottom of the table finishes leading to them almost being sacked by their respective clubs. Those performances gave them access to strong draft picks, which they converted into very strong teams. They then had incredible sustained success for about 4-5 years each, before they milked their lists and salary caps for too long.

They then bailed on their clubs leaving old lists and with limited cap space. Hawthorn has just started to recover this year, against expectations. Richmond is still languishing.

The new clubs both coaches have since moved to have not had immediate success up the table. Next year will be a huge test for both.

My point is not they both aren’t excellent coaches (they are) or that Horse’s flaws don’t count (they do), but it helps to see the full picture. Switching to big name coaches rarely leads to immediate improvement and does not guarantee medium term success either.

Put it this way, if either of those coaches coached the swans this year, I wouldn’t have expected them to do nearly as well in the H&A season, and would put it at more likely than not that they miss the GF. If they made the GF, I would obviously expect them to do better than Horse did.

I would prefer Cox to take over from Horse than either of those coaches, as I am sure that like Horse in 2011, Cox has a lot of new ideas he would bring to the table, plus he knows the list and players inside out.

Final thought: anyone who says Longmire rode on Roos’ coat tails for the 2021 premiership was not paying attention. The team was on a clear downward trajectory and no one expected Horse to turn things around so quickly. He innovated with slingshot footy, which won us the flag. He has also reinvented the game plan several times since. If anything, he has been too flexible the last couple of years, and, to use a Horse term, moved away from what he knows works (tough, contested footy with relentless two-way run). I expect the team to come out much harder next year, with according changes to the game plan to suit.

I think the best criticism you can make of horse is that he does not adapt as quick as he could within years - and in the past I think there was definitely an argument that he was not adaptable enough full stop, but he had improved quite substantially in that area.
 
Crust said:
Footy clubs exist to win premierships.
Everything done is to achieve that aim, from appointing the CEO down to the proverbial boot studder.
if the boot studder can't stud boots the club will get one who can. If a player can't kick or tackle the club will delist him for one who can.
We have a coach who has shown he cannot win premierships. He has coached three of the top ten biggest thrashings in grand final history. Two of our three worst games in the last three years have been grand finals. Yes, 2012, but that looks more and more like a residual Paul Roos premiership.
He cannot win us a flag so why keep him?
If the Club had decided to sack him it would have done so by now. Putting it off until the new year is madness.

Possibilities:
1. We have chosen to honour his contract which expires at the end of 2025. I have no difficulty with this, except to note that premiership windows are open for only a short time; or
2. We cannot afford it. Horse as I understand it is on 1m$ plus. That is a huge chunk of our soft cap, and given his years of service, all or most of that would be payable; or
3. The Club thinks he is a great coach. I thought he was, but not so much any more. I think the academy (Mills, Heeney, Blakey, Gulden) has been very good to him; or
4. It is only one more year. He has been a good coach. I kinda can't disagree with this, but I also do, again noting premiership windows.

If 1, 2, 4 or a combination thereof we will be looking for a new coach next year. If 3 and we renew him next year my dummy will be well and truly spat.
Succession plan or not, the Club should invite submissions and interview all candidates. Start the process now. Ambitious assistants will jump at the chance to coach our list. And Horse? If we are not renewing his contract it is only fair to tell him as soon as that decision is made.
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I agree with most of this, but I don't see 2012 as a residual Roos flag.

There were some team changes and you still have to gameday coach to get to and win a flag.

Plus this forgets that Horse was senior assistant under Roos, so any credit to Roos should probably also include those around him during his tenure, and Horse was also an assistant in 2005-06.

I think it's more likely he's a good coach for the most part, but has lost the way to prepare for and win grand finals. Which is a necessary part of coaching.
 
Looks pretty clear to me that next year is Horse’s last, and being the team man he is, he is letting Cox inform the draft priorities as Cox will inherit the outcomes of those decisions. I wouldn’t be surprised if Cox steers additional things this year as well.

Which is not to validate the ridiculous drivel that has infested this thread. Several other clubs would die for a coach as good as horse. This doesn’t mean he is infalible, this doesn’t mean we aren’t approaching the right time for him to move on - but the attacks on horse appear to demonstrate that some people need to grow up and get over the GF disappointment.
 
Bloods86 said:
I agree with most of this, but I don't see 2012 as a residual Roos flag.

There were some team changes and you still have to gameday coach to get to and win a flag.

Plus this forgets that Horse was senior assistant under Roos, so any credit to Roos should probably also include those around him during his tenure, and Horse was also an assistant in 2005-06.

I think it's more likely he's a good coach for the most part, but has lost the way to prepare for and win grand finals. Which is a necessary part of coaching.
Click to expand...
100% correct. At the time almosy everyone expected Swans to nearer the bottom of the ladder when Horse took over. He exceeded expectations and revitalised the game plan. He earned that premiership.
 

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Coach John Longmire - Part IV has resigned

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