Josh Kennedy vs Tom Hawkins

[Lunchlady Doris]

Still, he's a traditional goal square FF

No he's not.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

So you're including the two seasons at CFC where Kennedy was played out of position to strengthen your case for Hawkins?

Sure, we could just ignore the years that you don't like. If we take away the first year of Hawkins career, his averages go up as well.

What position was Kennedy played in at Carlton? I remember him trundling around the forward line.

How about we compare the last 2 seasons following Kennedy's trade to WCE and his real development began?

No, how about we don't ignore his first two seasons just because he was shit.

In the last two seasons despite Kennedy playing as a lead up/roaming CHF he averages 0.3 more (or 21% more) goals than Hawkins who plays as a permanent forward.

Sorry mate, but Hawkins has spent plenty of time leading up the ground, on the wings and flanks as well.

Hawkins does have a better accuracy in front of goal. One reason could be where he takes most of his shots from (i'm guessing playing as a deep forward Hawkins would have shots closer to goal than Kennedy who plays up the ground).

Stop with the guessing, it's very flimsy.

The main point of his point is fairly accurate, i.e. atm Kennedy > Hawkins

I don't believe so.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Oh my, you're pretentious

When addressing you, I have every right to be. Just look at what you've come up with:

You're arguing with statistics, stupid. Ever tried actually watching games? Getting a statistic is easier than you think, influencing a game is a different story.

If it comes down to statistics, or a known Geelong hater like yourself proclaiming Kennedy as better at everything with zero reasoning or justification whatsoever, any sane person, heck even slightly ******ed people are going to go with stats.

See above, statistics are hardly a valid argument.

Much more valid than

In this case, all the Hawkins voters (Cat fans I'd assume) are stupid

Without a doubt, your most stupid argument in that post, so unbelievably stupid it's Bay 13 material. Did you ever even consider the possibility that Kennedy had played less games than Hawkins'? Unfortunatley for your utterly stupid argument, it's more than a possibility.

Wow, how many times do you want to use the word stupid? It's a clear sign that you have nothing relevant or interesting to say.

As for Hawkins having played more games, you're right, it is a possibility. In a plus for me and my utterly stupid argument, it's not reality. Kennedy has played 45 game to Hawkins' 43. Did you even consider this possibility, before you came out with your load of codswallop?

How stupid do you look right now? It's actually breathtaking.

What's the point in arguing if statistics are the only thing you can rely on?

As above, it's a damn sight better than the gut feeling of a tosser like yourself.

Excuse me, did you know that you're an idiot? Looking at your post, you have nothing to offer whatsoever. Have you been to the dentist lately?

There you go again, embarrassing yourself.

Er, you can't predict the future without comparing their current form and as I've stated, Kennedy's better than Hawkins in several ways from endurance, to influence etc.

Nah.

My point is even stronger considering Kennedy is currently playing in a weak-rebuilding West Coast side as the lead-up CHF and along with that, isn't even the sole target (that being LeCras).

ROFL, he has Le Cras to contend with huh? I suppose Mooney, Steve Johnson, Paul Chapman, Ottens and Ablett occasionally, these guys would never take ball away from Hawkins? These guys are all higher priorities than Hawkins for ball coming into the forwardline.

Hawkins on the other hand, while he may have been second banana to Mooney, still had far more oppertunities than Kennedy with exceptional delivery from the best midfield in the comp and never got the best defender, which Kennedy always got when he played.

No no no no no. He's about 5th banana, our midfield would rather kick goals themselves than deliver it and Hawkins had plenty of quality defenders (Presti in the PF for example).

You're so wrong it's hilarious.

I await your reply with baited breath.

 

[Claude Balls]

Smoked him right back.

If it's ok to discount Kennedy's two worst seasons in order to improve his averages for the sake of this particular argument, then sure, smoked him.

 

[collingwill]

Smoked him right back.

i dont think so, if your going to go by stats then you go by all of the stats, not just the ones that prove your point, dane swan averaged 5 more disposals and kicked around 6 more goals than judd in 09, does that mean swans better than judd?

FTR, i went without foxtell for 09, meaning i got to see very little of kennedy, i did see a bit of hawkins, so without being 100% sure id take kennedy but IMO neither will be stars, stars as in buddy/fev types, they'll both be very good 60/70(max) goal fwds IMO.

 

[Spartan]

Sure, we could just ignore the years that you don't like. If we take away the first year of Hawkins career, his averages go up as well.

Its not about the years i don't like, its about comparing the most recent years plus considering a number of factors like Kennedy being played out of position and being at a shithouse club that didn't develop him.

Actually taking away Hawkins' first year doesn't really affect his average that much because he only played 9 games. Plus his goal per game average has been consistent over his three years in the system.

Edit: Plus i did take out Hawkins' first year anyway!!

What position was Kennedy played in at Carlton? I remember him trundling around the forward line.

I think you'll find he played quite a few of his games for CFC in the ruck.

No, how about we don't ignore his first two seasons just because he was shit.

I'd say the last two seasons are a more accurate indicator of how a player is travelling currently and potentially for the future than the last 3 or 4.

As already noted another reason is because he was played out of position, etc.

I could have just used 2009 but then Kennedy comes out even further in front. Not suprising as he is currently the better player.

Sorry mate, but Hawkins has spent plenty of time leading up the ground, on the wings and flanks as well.

Granted you've probably watched a few more Geelong games than me this year, however from the games i've seen besides a couple of short stints in the ruck he has pretty much been a stay at home forward.

Stop with the guessing, it's very flimsy.

Are you saying Hawkins takes alot of shots from the 50? Because i can tell you most of Kennedy's shots will be in the 40m+ range.

I don't believe so.

To each his own.

The poll however has spoken.

 

[Spartan]

If it's ok to discount Kennedy's two worst seasons in order to improve his averages for the sake of this particular argument, then sure, smoked him.

Kennedy's first two seasons, which also happend to be the two seasons he was played out of position and not developed at Carlton, have been discounted.

I didn't analyze his career and remove his two shit seasons nimrod.

The last two seasons give a much clearer picture of where the players are currently at and thus also gives the best indication of their careers moving forward. One could argue that the last season by itself again is a far better indicator however then people will whinge that one year could be a fluke, injuries affected one player more than the other in that one year, etc.

**** me some people are mentally challenged.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I think you'll find he played quite a few of his games for CFC in the ruck.

This is just petty massaging of the stats, hopdgepodge like stuff. If I remove the few games Hawkins spent in the ruck, it would boost his goal average significantly.

I'd say the last two seasons are a more accurate indicator of how a player is travelling currently and potentially for the future than the last 3 or 4.

As already noted another reason is because he was played out of position, etc.

I could have just used 2009 but then Kennedy comes out even further in front. Not suprising as he is currently the better player.

And if we allow for Hawkins not being developed due to no pre-seasons and learning to run again....you see how we could get bogged down in useless semantics?

Granted you've probably watched a few more Geelong games than me this year, however from the games i've seen besides a couple of short stints in the ruck he has pretty much been a stay at home forward.

Let's just go with: you don't really know.

The poll however has spoken.

Yes, we should just bow down to the font of footballing knowledge that is the BF masses.

 

[Spartan]

This is just petty massaging of the stats, hopdgepodge like stuff. If I remove the few games Hawkins spent in the ruck, it would boost his goal average significantly.

I think you need to slow down a little.

His first two seasons were removed due to a number of reasons in this comparison.

1. The last 2 seasons are the most recent and a better indicator of current (and as such future potential) of the players being compared as opposed to looking as far back as 4 seasons ago.

Thats the main reason. The additional little reasons are:

2. Kennedy was played out of position at Carlton.

3. Kennedy wasn't developed at Carlton.

etc

And if we allow for Hawkins not being developed due to no pre-seasons and learning to run again....you see how we could get bogged down in useless semantics?

Kennedy was injured for large parts of 2008. I've still included 2008 in the comparison.

Kennedy had no pre-season in 2009 and had a late start to the season. If we compare just their 2009 seasons then Kennedy is even more comfortably in front.

Let's just go with: you don't really know.

How many WCE games have you watched recently and as such what do you know about Kennedy? SFA i'd suggest. Fairly certain i'd have seen more Geelong games in the last two years than you have Eagles ones.

Yes, we should just bow down to the font of footballing knowledge that is the BF masses.

Finally talking some sense.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I think you need to slow down a little.

His first two seasons were removed due to a number of reasons in this comparison.

1. The last 2 seasons are the most recent and a better indicator of current (and as such future potential) of the players being compared as opposed to looking as far back as 4 seasons ago.

Thats the main reason. The additional little reasons are:

2. Kennedy was played out of position at Carlton.

3. Kennedy wasn't developed at Carlton.

etc

All pretty weak excuses, and mostly suppositions too. I would say Kennedy just didn't develop, has nothing to do with Carlton, except he wasn't good enough to get games in the top flight. Both players have been played out of position at times, you're clutching at straws here.

Kennedy was injured for large parts of 2008. I've still included 2008 in the comparison.

Kennedy had no pre-season in 2009 and had a late start to the season. If we compare just their 2009 seasons then Kennedy is even more comfortably in front.

More weak excuses for poor performances. Really we can't go off any of this, don't really knwo how factual it is. We just have to go by their actual career records, which show Hawkins has been better so far. 2010 we can only guess, can't wait to see though.

How many WCE games have you watched recently and as such what do you know about Kennedy? SFA i'd suggest. Fairly certain i'd have seen more Geelong games in the last two years than you have Eagles ones.

Show me where I said anything about Kennedy?

And then explain why you assume you've seen more Geelong games than I've seen West Coast?

Finally talking some sense.

I hope you're taking the piss.

 

[winty]

I think you need to slow down a little.

His first two seasons were removed due to a number of reasons in this comparison.

1. The last 2 seasons are the most recent and a better indicator of current (and as such future potential) of the players being compared as opposed to looking as far back as 4 seasons ago.

Thats the main reason. The additional little reasons are:

2. Kennedy was played out of position at Carlton.

3. Kennedy wasn't developed at Carlton.

etc

Using that rather ordinary rationale, why don't we remove Hawkins' first two seasons too? After all, he has an entirely different running style now which minimizes the risk of stress related injuries that plagued him during his first two seasons at the club. After all, changing an athlete's running style would be similar to getting a guitarist to start playing using their other hand, or a drummer losing an arm. Not impossible, but it would take a lot of getting used to.

I find this entire thread to be hilarious. Most of the neutrals who have posted in favour of Kennedy are known to have an anti-Geelong bias. Just look through the posting histories of the likes of Hodgepodge and GrandBlue if you don't believe me. If you took Grand Blue's posts as gospel, it would make you wonder how a side like Geelong has won 2 out of the last 3 premierships when the entire list is full of hacks and list cloggers.

 

[Claude Balls]

Kennedy's first two seasons, which also happend to be the two seasons he was played out of position and not developed at Carlton, have been discounted.

I didn't analyze his career and remove his two shit seasons nimrod.

The last two seasons give a much clearer picture of where the players are currently at and thus also gives the best indication of their careers moving forward. One could argue that the last season by itself again is a far better indicator however then people will whinge that one year could be a fluke, injuries affected one player more than the other in that one year, etc.

**** me some people are mentally challenged.

There's a lot of bullshit in that post.

 

[Spartan]

All pretty weak excuses, and mostly suppositions too. I would say Kennedy just didn't develop, has nothing to do with Carlton, except he wasn't good enough to get games in the top flight. Both players have been played out of position at times, you're clutching at straws here.

I'll go very, very, very slowly for you.

The main reason for comparing the players over the last 2 seasons is because the last two seasons give the better indication of where the players are currently at and as such potential for the future as opposed to reaching as far back as 4 seasons ago.

Read it over and over again if you have to.

More weak excuses for poor performances. Really we can't go off any of this, don't really knwo how factual it is. We just have to go by their actual career records, which show Hawkins has been better so far. 2010 we can only guess, can't wait to see though.

**** i'm going to assuming that you're either not reading or you can't read.

The 'excuses' relate to the years (2008 and 2009) which have been included in the comparison. The only reason they were included is because you had a sook that poor little Hawkins hasn't performed better due to injury.

The arguement that Hawkins has had a better overall career is debatable.

However we're discussing how they compare currently and how they will compare in the future.

If you can't see that recent performances are a better indicator for such comparisons then you're a... <insert random name calling here>.

Show me where I said anything about Kennedy?

And then explain why you assume you've seen more Geelong games than I've seen West Coast?

You're assuming that Hawkins is the better player. I'm asking how you can do that if you potentially haven't seen much at all of Kennedy.

I watch alot of footy.

I hope you're taking the piss.

Of course not. With experts like yourself on here i'd say BF is the definitive source.

 

[Partridge]

Hawkins does have a better accuracy in front of goal. One reason could be where he takes most of his shots from (i'm guessing playing as a deep forward Hawkins would have shots closer to goal than Kennedy who plays up the ground).

I've seen him nail some great set shots though. Second quarter of the prelim final, a 55m goal from quite close to the boundary line. Or against Brisbane at the Gabba this year, where he converted brillianted from outside the boundary line (on the wrong side for a right-footer too).

Hawkins' goalkicking is a bit like Richo's, people remember the bad misses (and there have been some shockers for sure), but overall his conversion is quite decent. More importantly, it's getting better.

 

[Spartan]

Using that rather ordinary rationale, why don't we remove Hawkins' first two seasons too? After all, he has an entirely different running style now which minimizes the risk of stress related injuries that plagued him during his first two seasons at the club. After all, changing an athlete's running style would be similar to getting a guitarist to start playing using their other hand, or a drummer losing an arm. Not impossible, but it would take a lot of getting used to.

Happy to discount Hawkins' first two seasons then and compare them on 2009.

Kennedy: 12.6 disposals, 6.9 marks, 1.8 tackles, 1.9 goals

Hawkins: 11.6 disposals, 5.5 marks, 2.3 tackles, 1.4 goals

Lets also not forget Geelong won the flag averaging 105 ppg and WCE finished 11th averaging 86ppg. Fair to say the ball on average spent alot more time in the Geelong forwardline than the Eagles forwardline.

There's a lot of bullshit in that post.

You got nothing so you've presented a nothing post. Congrats.

 

[winty]

Happy to discount Hawkins' first two seasons then and compare them on 2009.

Kennedy: 12.6 disposals, 6.9 marks, 1.8 tackles, 1.9 goals

Hawkins: 11.6 disposals, 5.5 marks, 2.3 tackles, 1.4 goals

Lets also not forget Geelong won the flag averaging 105 ppg and WCE finished 11th averaging 86ppg. Fair to say the ball on average spent alot more time in the Geelong forwardline than the Eagles forwardline.

Let's not forget too that aside from Kennedy and LeCras, there really aren't that many other forward options for Eagles midfielders to look for when going forward. Compare that to Geelong, who have Mooney, SJ and Chapman all viable targets for Geelong's midfielders, not to mention that whenever Ottens goes forward, it is usually Hawkins who takes a spell on the pine while he's there.

Interestingly, LeCras and Kennedy combined for 32% of West Coast's goals this season. Hawkins and Mooney combined for 22% of Geelong's. Just goes to show Geelong have a hell of a lot more forward options than the Eagles do.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I'll go very, very, very slowly for you.

The main reason for comparing the players over the last 2 seasons is because the last two seasons give the better indication of where the players are currently at and as such potential for the future as opposed to reaching as far back as 4 seasons ago.

Read it over and over again if you have to.

No, that doens't make sense. In 2007, the most recent indication of Kennedy's potential was his 2006 season, which was rubbish. His 2007 continued to be rubbish.

In 2008, his most recent indication of his potential was his 2007 season, which apparently he went and turned on it's head!

In 2007, Shannon Byrnes was very very average, probably the luckiest player to get a premierhsip medal that year. 2 years later he's got a solid spot in our 22, is kicking goals and getting heaps of the footy.

You can talk about potential all you like, but no one really knows what's going to happen. That's why we can only go off what has actually happened, past records. And dream about the future. Everyone thinks that their players are going to be guns, but it doesn't always work out.

The arguement that Hawkins has had a better overall career is debatable.

No, I showed pretty clearly that he has, in all of the areas that GrandBlue douche raised.

However we're discussing how they compare currently and how they will compare in the future.

If you can't see that recent performances are a better indicator for such comparisons then you're a... <insert random name calling here>.

I'll stick to the facts, and wait and see what happens.

 

[Claude Balls]

You got nothing so you've presented a nothing post. Congrats.

I've just never liked arguing with people who attempt to taking the high intellectual ground.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Let's not forget too that aside from Kennedy and LeCras, there really aren't that many other forward options for Eagles midfielders to look for when going forward. Compare that to Geelong, who have Mooney, SJ and Chapman all viable targets for Geelong's midfielders, not to mention that whenever Ottens goes forward, it is usually Hawkins who takes a spell on the pine while he's there.

Interestingly, LeCras and Kennedy combined for 32% of West Coast's goals this season. Hawkins and Mooney combined for 22% of Geelong's. Just goes to show Geelong have a hell of a lot more forward options than the Eagles do.

Firstly you forget a player like McKinley who kicked 30 goals this season.

I can't disagree with any of the rest of your paragraph, but how does it make Hawkins a better forward?

Your argument as far as I can see is that Hawkins contributes a lesser percentage of Geelong's score therefore he is the better forward . . . What? Perhaps a better indication would be the percentage of times each forward is targeted inside the 50.

I'm all understanding of Geelong's support for hawkins, but Kennedy is clearly the better player.

 

[Spartan]

Let's not forget too that aside from Kennedy and LeCras, there really aren't that many other forward options for Eagles midfielders to look for when going forward. Compare that to Geelong, who have Mooney, SJ and Chapman all viable targets for Geelong's midfielders, not to mention that whenever Ottens goes forward, it is usually Hawkins who takes a spell on the pine while he's there.

Interestingly, LeCras and Kennedy combined for 32% of West Coast's goals this season. Hawkins and Mooney combined for 22% of Geelong's. Just goes to show Geelong have a hell of a lot more forward options than the Eagles do.

Geelong do have alot more forward options than the Eagles at present, however as pointed out McKinley is another one of our regular forwards. In the second half of the season Wilson got a few games there and Lynch spent a little time there as well.

However the Geelong forwards also have alot more opportunities than the WCE forwards.

I would have thought like the Eagles in 05-06 the Geelong midfielders would also have contributed a fair few goals to the tally, hence lowering the percentage of goals kicked by Hawkins/Mooney.

You can talk about potential all you like, but no one really knows what's going to happen. That's why we can only go off what has actually happened, past records. And dream about the future. Everyone thinks that their players are going to be guns, but it doesn't always work out.

I don't disagree with the majority of your post, but you kinda jump from arguement to arguement to support your position.

Look at the above statement you've made.

There are two issues at hand.

Who is currently the better player?

I say based on their recent (2008) and current (2009) performances Kennedy is the better player.

Who has the greater potential?

Again, I say based on their recent (2008) and current (2009) performances Kennedy is the better player.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I don't disagree with the majority of your post, but you kinda jump from arguement to arguement to support your position.

Look at the above statement you've made.

There are two issues at hand.

Who is currently the better player?

I say based on their recent (2008) and current (2009) performances Kennedy is the better player.

Who has the greater potential?

Again, I say based on their recent (2008) and current (2009) performances Kennedy is the better player.

My entire argument was a response to fallacies posted by GrandBlue, then you jumped on board for some reason. I haven't said anything about Kennedy at all, only Hawkins. I haven't talked about their potential or future at all, only their statistical record. I don't really pretend to know what will happen to Geelong players in the future, let alone players of teams that I watch much less of.

I don't know how you could call Kennedy's 2008 better in any way, his 2009 maybe slightly, but Hawkins did contribute heavily to a premiership.

 

[Hodgepodge]

double post

 

[Hodgepodge]

I don't know how you could call Kennedy's 2008 better in any way, his 2009 maybe slightly, but Hawkins did contribute heavily to a premiership.

If you're going to comment on fallacies, maybe look at some of your own. The only reason Hawkins contributed to a premiership was because he was in a premiership team. That's not a player rating.

Kennedy's 2009 was far superior to Hawkins'. Averaged more marks, goals, tackles, contested marks, disposal etc. And then there's the work rate, which the stats don't even show. Kennedy is one of the hardest working players in the game and will show up all over the ground.

Tom Hawkins doesn't compare at this stage.

 

[Spartan]

I don't know how you could call Kennedy's 2008 better in any way, his 2009 maybe slightly, but Hawkins did contribute heavily to a premiership.

2008 was comparable, 2009 is easily Kennedy's.

Hence over recent (2008-2009) and current (2009) times Kennedy > Hawkins.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

If you're going to comment on fallacies, maybe look at some of your own. The only reason Hawkins contributed to a premiership was because he was in a premiership team. That's not a player rating.

Sorry, but that's a load of shit. 2 goals early in the PF and at least 2 more directly created by him. Probably the most important goal of the GF, the first of the last quarter with a strong mark and conversion from 50m on a blustery day where others found it hard to kick them from much closer. He did contribute immensely.

Kennedy's 2009 was far superior to Hawkins'. Averaged more marks, goals, tackles, contested marks, disposal etc. And then there's the work rate, which the stats don't even show. Kennedy is one of the hardest working players in the game and will show up all over the ground.

For all of this, in 2009 he averaged 1 extra disposal, 0.5 goals, 0.5 less tackles, I would love to see your contested marks stats as we can see we can't take anything you say as truth. And I seriously doubt he is ahead in any of the stats that don't show, Hawkins work in shepherding, 1%ers and work off the ball is fantastic.

Tom Hawkins doesn't compare at this stage.

From this point on, I really don't care what you have to say, because you're a troll who cannot be listened to in any discussion of Geelong players.