Current Julie Cutler - Murder - 1988 - Cottesloe WA *To the Coroner

[BFew]

Inquest into the Suspected death of Julie CUTLER

https://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/_files/Inquest_2023/CUTLER, Julie Leanne.pdf (49 pages)
'[2023] WACOR 19
JURISDICTION : CORONER'S COURT OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA
ACT : CORONERS ACT 1996
CORONER : SARAH HELEN LINTON, DEPUTY STATE CORONER HEARD :
3 - 4 NOVEMBER 2022 DELIVERED : 6 APRIL 2023
FILE NO/S : CORC 830 of 2019
DECEASED : CUTLER, JULIE LEANNE'

 

[Kurve]

They haven't said either, if Julie's house keys were on the ring with her car keys ..

 

[petedavo]

I don't think a perpetrator would be able to predict that the car would disappear into the ocean for 2 days though.

I would think that the perpetrator would expect it to be found at daybreak and be on the news that day.

If the perpetrator returned the wallet to her house using her house key, they would've thought they have to do it quickly, and either rely on luck that she didn't share the house, or they knew her housemate wasn't expected back for another day. Still, I'd expect that they would've wanted to be in and out of there before people got up to go to work, and they'd be seen by neighbours.

So if they expected the car to be found at daybreak, and returned her wallet, this pushes the timeframe for the dumping of her car much closer to the time of her last sighting. Maybe around 1 to 2 am, maybe as late as 3am. It wasn't a long weekend in Perth, so they'd be up against early morning risers for work by 5am. IMO most likely planned, with an unreported ransom note left in the wallet. There's no other rational reason to return a wallet, other than a staged disappearance by Julie herself, but that seems unlikely. She'd need transport back to her home and at that time in the early hours, only taxis would've been available



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[petedavo]

Here is the most likely entry point at Cottesloe Beach. The surf life saving club ramp. Although the Indiana didn't exist in 1988, you can see the old surf lifesavers shed is still underneath the Indiana, which shows that there was a lot more room in 1988 to bring a vehicle down to this boat ramp..

https://earth.app.goo.gl/?apn=com.g...1JiV3ZMVkt2bk9VZERrYVR6cHZIMXRLZzFtNFotalIQBQ

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[metic]

I admit I have missed the references but not knowing the area I am lost and pictures dont really help. Did the car get launched or driven into the sea?

If it got launched then anybody inside might have struggled to free themselves if the car hit hard. If the car was driven in as far as possible then I can see a person escaping ( if they so chose)

I think driven aggressively.
For it to have gone out into deep enough water to be sunken so as not be seen,
I think an aggressive driving technique most likely.
I am not positive the plan was to hide the car , perhaps the perpetrator did not intend to sink the car out of sight .
They may not have known it would be hidden for days.
That might have been a bonus that occured by chance.
This is one of the really odd things about this case, its not a common occurrence anywhere on perth metro beaches.
Thats why i dont agree that random perpetrator/s dumped the car for fun, having found the car, not knowing that JC has met foul play.

Has it occured again since 1988 ?
No?
I dont think its likely, for this reason.

JmO

 

[metic]

I think there is a small possibility her body may have gone out to sea. If the weather was rough ( metic ? ) then the tow may have taken it out.

Though all the other scenarios are possible.

Yes it was possible for the rip / currents to take a body out and southward !
I've plotted a course previously,
it went southward to cockburn/ coogee ~20km or more from cott beach.
Meaning in a ~ SSW direction from cott beach.
Within 3 days (24th) a sustained strong west wind blew in that should have beached a body too.
So if it washed ashore down that area it should have been found. Even clothes or items from car.
Same as a police theory that they thought it would wash into shore - i agree with that .
Police mentioned looking as far north as Yanchep, which bothered me because the current was going southward in the opposite direction to Yanchep.
On the fri 24th june a storm blew onshore winds and beaches were searched yet nothing was found afaik .
JmO

 

[Kurve]

Here is the most likely entry point at Cottesloe Beach. The surf life saving club ramp. Although the Indiana didn't exist in 1988, you can see the old surf lifesavers shed is still underneath the Indiana, which shows that there was a lot more room in 1988 to bring a vehicle down to this boat ramp..

https://earth.app.goo.gl/?apn=com.g...1JiV3ZMVkt2bk9VZERrYVR6cHZIMXRLZzFtNFotalIQBQ

Just exploring here. Down the boat ramp it's heading to the pylon, there's a small reefy/rocky bit around that the car could have got stuck on and it didn't. Agree it could slide more easily into the water off the boat ramp but even with a SSW (?) current could the fiat have moved that far along to lodge on top of the reef closer to the groyne? We've added quite a few extra car lengths and also, added to the offenders risk. A five or six second job down a sheltered service road has possibly becomes minutes, with car lights on they're flashing up the coast and turning?

 

[metic]

I think this pic might help. The red is the service road and where (as the cops recently confirmed) the car entered the beach. The skinny red line is how it might have got in going off the protruding shelf without having to go over much/or any sand. The fat red line is if it went in a straighter direction. The straighter direction has it lined up with the reef it was found on. But I think either way and it might still have ended up lodged on top of the reef.

This pic shows quite a bit of sand but the night Julie's car went in, the water was right up to the retainer wall.

View attachment 529321

"The fat red line is if it went in a straighter direction.
The straighter direction has it lined up with the reef it was found on."

Yes agreed, i think this is the road used to get car into the water .
JmO
Nice picture diagram shellyg

 

[Sorbet Bliss]

"The fat red line is if it went in a straighter direction.
The straighter direction has it lined up with the reef it was found on."

Yes agreed, i think this is the road used to get car into the water .
JmO
Nice picture diagram shellyg

FWIW I also agree that this is the most likely path the fiat travelled down to get into the water.



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[petedavo]

Just exploring here. Down the boat ramp it's heading to the pylon, there's a small reefy/rocky bit around that the car could have got stuck on and it didn't. Agree it could slide more easily into the water off the boat ramp but even with a SSW (?) current could the fiat have moved that far along to lodge on top of the reef closer to the groyne? We've added quite a few extra car lengths and also, added to the offenders risk. A five or six second job down a sheltered service road has possibly becomes minutes, with car lights on they're flashing up the coast and turning?

The life savers ramp is only 10 metres from where the access road lands upon that boardwalk. Before the Indiana was built, it was broad and would be just a diagonal crossing from one to the other. IMO there would be damage to the lip of the boardwalk if the car went straight over it. The other thing is that the reef that it ended up on is directly in front of the ramp about 50 metres out.
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[petedavo]

"The fat red line is if it went in a straighter direction.
The straighter direction has it lined up with the reef it was found on."

Yes agreed, i think this is the road used to get car into the water .
JmO
Nice picture diagram shellyg

I think we need a picture from 1988, before the Indiana was built as the access road appears to realigned in this picture to what I remember it being in the 1980's. But I admit the last time I spent much time down there was in 1985-1986. I did visit after the Indiana was built, but only remember that you couldn't park under the trees anymore and they put steps into the other access road that weren't there when I was a kid, and that the kiosk was replaced by this Indiana monstrosity. Before the Indiana the access road would've been in plain sight from Marine Parade. The only cover would've been directly in front of the kiosk, where the ramp is. IMO

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[Sorbet Bliss]

Is this just before they started to haul the fiat out? Looks like a police tow truck on stand by and police divers getting ready to go in.

There's reef right there as shellyg has pointed out in above image mapping out potential entry point of fiat.

The above images show in sequence the guy walking down to hook up what looks like a tow cable to the fiat. You can see that the groyne is quite close in the back ground. So I'm thinking the fiat was found on the reef in this area than in front of the tea rooms.






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[Sorbet Bliss]

Maybe the car went down this road onto the beach out into the crashing surf and ended up on the reef? That road could have been the path taken by the driver who i presume drove like a rally / speedway driver into the ocean? (early on mon 20th June 88)
Where it remained hidden until weds 22nd june88? when its seen underwater by a swimmer Mr Mickle.

This mystery is not simple to figure out.
Not many could drive a car out that far into the sea imo .

i have been joining the dots and figuring out more with the recent news.
Thanks to all the media channels who put the old footage together keep up the good work

This is the reef courtesy of Metic


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[metic]

The life savers ramp is only 10 metres from where the access road lands upon that boardwalk. Before the Indiana was built, it was broad and would be just a diagonal crossing from one to the other. IMO there would be damage to the lip of the boardwalk if the car went straight over it. The other thing is that the reef that it ended up on is directly in front of the ramp about 50 metres out.
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"The other thing is that the reef that it ended up on is directly in front of the ramp about 50 metres out."

How do you know that PD ?
I don't think your Reef has been mentioned before, or pointed out,
Or even known of .
I did not think there was any other reef in the vicinity other than the one that I have continously mentioned for ~ a year.
JmO

 

[Kurve]

I think we need a picture from 1988, before the Indiana was built as the access road appears to realigned in this picture to what I remember it being in the 1980's. But I admit the last time I spent much time down there was in 1985-1986. I did visit after the Indiana was built, but only remember that you couldn't park under the trees anymore and they put steps into the other access road that weren't there when I was a kid, and that the kiosk was replaced by this Indiana monstrosity. Before the Indiana the access road would've been in plain sight from Marine Parade. The only cover would've been directly in front of the kiosk, where the ramp is. IMO

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I don't know if this helps.

"In 1983, a new bathing pavilion and boatshed, designed by architects Brand Deykin and Hay, was erected on the site of the former Centenary Pavilion. This building was notable for its arched roof and low profile compared to the dominating presence of the Centenary Pavilion.55 The 1980s in Cottesloe was a period of new wealth in the district. The dual use cycle and pedestrian paths within Cottesloe Beach Precinct were established in this period.56 The dual use path was named the Raia Roberts Path in honour of a former Town of Cottesloe Councillor,57 The Town of Cottesloe perceived the need for a change to the bathing pavilion by the mid 1990s and expressions of interest were called from architects to design a multi purpose building. The successful tenderer were architects Scanlon and Associates, whose design used the lower level of the 1983 pavilion as the basis of the new building. The surf life saving club used the facilities on the lower floor as they had previously. The public change rooms and take away food facility remained on the next floor and an additional storey was added for a restaurant.58 This restaurant the ‘Indiana Tearooms’ was named after one of the original tea rooms located on the beach at the base of Forrest Street.59"

http://inherit.stateheritage.wa.gov.au/Admin/api/file/0e260746-d6c5-4ae5-b071-dad93fff4873

So it was only an additional storey that was added? The roads and paths stayed the same, I think.

 

[petedavo]

"The other thing is that the reef that it ended up on is directly in front of the ramp about 50 metres out."

How do you know that PD ?
I don't think your Reef has been mentioned before, or pointed out,
Or even known of .
I did not think there was any other reef in the vicinity other than the one that I have continously mentioned for ~ a year.
JmO

There's quite a bit of reef. It's basically a limestone shelf that's extends along the coast, mostly covered in sand, but in this picture it's quite obvious. The dark patches. https://finishingtouchgallery.com.au/product/cott-b009-cottesloe-beach/
This MSM article that the car was found 50 metres out. https://thewest.com.au/news/crime/w...issing-perth-woman-julie-cutler-ng-b88870180z
The reef near where the car is seen being winch from is only 30 metres out at best.
Did the divers use air bags to bring in close to shore? If so then it must've been further North as you said the current would've pushed the body south. And looking out to sea from Cottesloe Beach, North is to your right, so it couldn't of been pushed by the ocean from anywhere left of the retrieval point. And the retrieval point it is not submerged in the photos, yet media quote that the swimmer saw it under him (submerged 50 metres out).

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[petedavo]

I don't know if this helps.

"In 1983, a new bathing pavilion and boatshed, designed by architects Brand Deykin and Hay, was erected on the site of the former Centenary Pavilion. This building was notable for its arched roof and low profile compared to the dominating presence of the Centenary Pavilion.55 The 1980s in Cottesloe was a period of new wealth in the district. The dual use cycle and pedestrian paths within Cottesloe Beach Precinct were established in this period.56 The dual use path was named the Raia Roberts Path in honour of a former Town of Cottesloe Councillor,57 The Town of Cottesloe perceived the need for a change to the bathing pavilion by the mid 1990s and expressions of interest were called from architects to design a multi purpose building. The successful tenderer were architects Scanlon and Associates, whose design used the lower level of the 1983 pavilion as the basis of the new building. The surf life saving club used the facilities on the lower floor as they had previously. The public change rooms and take away food facility remained on the next floor and an additional storey was added for a restaurant.58 This restaurant the ‘Indiana Tearooms’ was named after one of the original tea rooms located on the beach at the base of Forrest Street.59"

http://inherit.stateheritage.wa.gov.au/Admin/api/file/0e260746-d6c5-4ae5-b071-dad93fff4873

So it was only an additional storey that was added? The roads and paths stayed the same, I think.

The original building from 1988 is underneath the Indiana, but as you can see in this old painting, there's no pillars, arches or clock tower. The new building substantially took up more space encroaching most of the boardwalk.
https://www.aasd.com.au/index.cfm/list-all-works/?concat=bakergreg&order=1&start=1&show=50
Comparison photos of Indiana here https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/cottesloe-beach-indiana-tea-house.html
You can just make out the old building hiding behind the pillars underneath the new one. IMO there is a substantial difference in what would of been observable in 1988. It might well mean that whatever happened to Julie occurred elsewhere proceeding her car being dumped at Cottesloe, because IMO they would've done it quickly or someone would've seen or heard whatever was happening as there's a backpackers just across Marine Pde.

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[one eyed spy]

I think we need a picture from 1988 before the Indiana was built.

Bizarre that 'Perths favourite beach' is so hard to find photos of between 83-96. These probably aren't much help either. I'm hoping to find something better.
The photo from the groyne is just goggle search image & the other is from a blog 1986 which Ive cropped the people out of and added the link.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8iTC0AOTU...cRbgSDQBqeM/s1600/_20160219_161344-774545.JPG

 

[Kurve]

there's a backpackers just across Marine Pde.

Backpackers ... you mean a backpackers hostel PD? Was it registered?

 

[petedavo]

"Ms Cutler’s sister wants three parts of her sister’s disappearance reinvestigated — a break-in at her Fremantle home shortly before she disappeared, her complaint a man had tried to force her car off Stirling Highway and a question of whether she made it home the night she disappeared because her wallet was found at her house."
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/julies-father-wants-an-end-to-familys-pain-ng-b88342268z

There's more detail on these things in other MSM reports, which I can't find right now, but anyhow I wanted to find a realistic possibility that fitted these, and the further I explored a kidnap for ransom scenario, which I honestly didn't expect to go far and was based upon a hunch from what Roger said in an early interview, and the more I looked into it, I started finding evidence that actually supported it.
ie; the cigarette butts that weren't Julie's brand; the couple that never came forward; the clothes in the arcade; the phone call to the journalist; Roger fronting MSM early on asking that whoever had Julie return her; the articles in Trove about the nickel court case including an article that suggest that shares were traded under names of family members of the bloke being prosecuted; finding someone by the same name as Julie working near Cottesloe married to the person in the trove article; the return of David Everett a year prior: Detective Silich's involvement in cases of various big time frauds, the mint swindle and his son's criminality; the original 1972 judgement detailing the Judge's thoughts on a financial windfall going missing from the Supreme Court filing. If it was an attempt at kidnapping for ransom, and they thought they had the wrong Julie, what would they have done with her?


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I'll try to tag material relevant to this hypothesis here, for review and discussion.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/list?id=120356
Some extra relevant material to this is located here https://trove.nla.gov.au/list?id=109988
At present I'm looking for evidence to confirm that Vernon Silich's taxi driving career included servicing Swanbourne and the Campbell Barracks, whilst David Everett was in the SAS.

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[petedavo]

Backpackers ... you mean a backpackers hostel PD? Was it registered?

Yes. Here is it's web address.
https://oceanbeachbackpackers.business.site
Apparently, residents there complained of noise created by rowdy teenagers on the street, the night before Julie disappeared according to posts about an MSM article in another forum. I'll see if I can find it.

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[Kurve]

I'll try to tag material relevant to this hypothesis here, for review and discussion.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/list?id=120356
Some extra relevant material to this is located here https://trove.nla.gov.au/list?id=109988
At present I'm looking for evidence to confirm that Vernon Silich's taxi driving career included servicing Swanbourne and the Campbell Barracks, whilst David Everett was in the SAS.

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Thanks PD. I can see you're putting a bit of work into this, it's very interesting.

 

[petedavo]

Thanks PD. I can see you're putting a bit of work into this, it's very interesting.

Disclaimer: It might turn out to be another dead end yet.

But then this bloke seems to pull $200K out of thin air and gloss over how he does it.
http://www.newmandala.org/dave-everett-and-fighting-for-the-knla/

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[FTY1]

Some links to photos from the National Archives from 1983 to 1996. I am not sure if they add much to the conversation but here they are anyway.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=11698609
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=11698610
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=11698625
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=11649986

 

[petedavo]

Some links to photos from the National Archives from 1983 to 1996. I am not sure if they add much to the conversation but here they are anyway.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=11698609
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=11698610
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=11698625
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=11649986

Actually think they might. The last one shows someone walking in waist deep water, so it'd rule out that location of where the fiat might've been submerged unnoticed for 2 days. And the other images show that the area near the building as being reasonably hidden from viewing from Marine Parade, which means that the perpetrator might've had some scope for doing something before placing the vehicle in the ocean.

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[GreyCrow]

which means that the perpetrator might've had some scope for doing something before placing the vehicle in the ocean.

This is the part I cant get my head around. There is no way anybody could determine how long a car would be in the water for. If they scoped the lie of the sea then they would be looking at low tide conditions ie where and when there is maximum exposure.

Someone may have thought it might be a good idea to drive the car off the end but the end result has so many variables that it feels more like a random opportunity than a pre-determined one. There are many more ways to destroy a car than putting it in the water

The destruction is a side benefit not the main aim imo