Coach Justin Longmuir Pt 2

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I just don't see us getting anywhere with our current game style of high handballing and over use.

I somewhat hope the reason we are playing this way is to compensate for the lack of an explosive midfielder who can create separation out of the middle - and that once we get more development out of Johnson and Simpson or we manage to bring in someone like Warner we might see that part of our game settle down.

I also struggle to understand how much of our game seems to be based off winning the 'contest' as JL would call it. The best teams seem to be able to win games without needing to be reliant on the midfield and stoppages for scoring whereas we seem to either live or die off them.

I'll say it again but if we overuse the ball again in a dewy or wet game - of which the next 2 matches look as likely candidates then I think he needs to go. I also don't think that game style will hold up in finals.

In saying that I'd love to be entirely wrong about this and for us to be well on track for a premiership some time in the short term future where I will gladly swallow my words.
 
arsesmart said:
What skills/tools do you think he's lacking to get the team scoring well?
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I think he is lacking on a couple of fronts.

1. Its Ironic as a former dockers player, Justin Longmuir is a ruck and tall forward.

2. Jayme Graham has produced mixed results as a forward coach. I think we need to Hire a goal kicking coach.

3. This is beyong his control But his 3 best tall forwards in Luke Jackson, Jye Amiss and Josh Traecy are all aged 24 and under.

4. Losing Lachie Schulz Sucks. So we are left as small forwards with an Ageing Michael Walters, a Prime age Sam Switkowski who doesnt kick enough goals and a 25-30 goal a season Michael Frederick.

We do need a gun 40 goal a year small forward or at worst another Frederick or someone to Fill Lachie Schulz shoes to kick 25-30 goals a season. How desperate are we? I dont know. Do we grab a gun 18 or 19 year old small forward in the draft? or Look into the VFL or local WAFL to find that mature aged 20-24 year old 170-178 cm small forward that can kick 20-30 goals next season?
 

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We're getting plenty of opportunities to score and cause damage, it's the finishing that is the problem, and I think that ultimately comes down to the players more than the coach, you can only coach a player so much before it becomes their responsibility to begin producing results.
 
Last year I was at a charity event and Jason Dunstall was one of the guest speakers. My company was a major sponsor so I was lucky enough to get to chat to him for quite a while and I asked him about this whole concept of both individual players and even whole forward lines getting ‘the yips’. It was really interesting, he shared his perspective that if you put aside external factors like wind etc, goal kicking is principally about fitness (slowing breathing and heart rate), mindset (calming your mind and letting your routine take over), goal kicking routine, and technique.

To cut a long story short, he said that every player he had worked with to improve goal kicking needed help with the mindset component more than anything else, and I remember him saying that when players can’t calm themselves they tend to mess up their practiced routine and focus on what might go wrong rather than what they need to do.

On the concept of ‘collective yips’ again he pointed to mindset, and players feeling the pressure of needing to be the one to break the drought again taking their focus away from their routine.

Our goal kicking at the moment looks to me at least like a group of players that are in this space, doubting themselves and feeling individual and collective pressure.

Obviously having such a young forward line this is going to be having an impact, and I wonder whether or not the club is doing some kind of mindset and kicking routine work with them. Amiss looks like he is using a different run up and getting much closer to the man on the mark at the moment than what he was last year. No doubt the forward coaches are onto that and would be showing vision, but if it’s happening as a result of him getting overly anxious in the moment might be difficult for him to control. When he kicked that goal in free play last night he didn’t have time to think, and kicked off instinct.

I don’t think on balance it’s fair to associate the terrible kicking at goal entirely with JL. Would be most interesting to know what other resources the club is bringing to the table to support him and the forward coaches.
 
ilikepotatoes said:
I just don't see us getting anywhere with our current game style of high handballing and over use.

I somewhat hope the reason we are playing this way is to compensate for the lack of an explosive midfielder who can create separation out of the middle - and that once we get more development out of Johnson and Simpson or we manage to bring in someone like Warner we might see that part of our game settle down.

I also struggle to understand how much of our game seems to be based off winning the 'contest' as JL would call it. The best teams seem to be able to win games without needing to be reliant on the midfield and stoppages for scoring whereas we seem to either live or die off them.

I'll say it again but if we overuse the ball again in a dewy or wet game - of which the next 2 matches look as likely candidates then I think he needs to go. I also don't think that game style will hold up in finals.

In saying that I'd love to be entirely wrong about this and for us to be well on track for a premiership some time in the short term future where I will gladly swallow my words.
Click to expand...
I’ve come around to “the contest”

It’s not clearances, it’s about winning or at least not losing your individual one-on-one battles.

Clearances are a form of contest, but they’re not the only ones
 
DragoDelph said:
I’ve come around to “the contest”

It’s not clearances, it’s about winning or at least not losing your individual one-on-one battles.

Clearances are a form of contest, but they’re not the only ones
Click to expand...
Yeah it's definitely not a clearance thing. We almost always do well there. It's around the ground and the place young players usually get exposed.
 
ilikepotatoes said:
I just don't see us getting anywhere with our current game style of high handballing and over use.

I somewhat hope the reason we are playing this way is to compensate for the lack of an explosive midfielder who can create separation out of the middle - and that once we get more development out of Johnson and Simpson or we manage to bring in someone like Warner we might see that part of our game settle down.

I also struggle to understand how much of our game seems to be based off winning the 'contest' as JL would call it. The best teams seem to be able to win games without needing to be reliant on the midfield and stoppages for scoring whereas we seem to either live or die off them.

I'll say it again but if we overuse the ball again in a dewy or wet game - of which the next 2 matches look as likely candidates then I think he needs to go. I also don't think that game style will hold up in finals.

In saying that I'd love to be entirely wrong about this and for us to be well on track for a premiership some time in the short term future where I will gladly swallow my words.
Click to expand...
Yeah you have nailed it here. Great comment. My thoughts exactly.
 
Lach72 said:
Agree somewhat. Focus needs to be on midfield goals.

Young and Serong must start kicking more goals
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I think you can forget about Serong. The attributes required for a midfielder to kick goals are some combination of speed, power, height/marking, penetration, accuracy. He lacks all of them. Same with Brayshaw. Look at how many goals Neale kicks for example. Not many.
 
Alfonz said:
I think you can forget about Serong. The attributes required for a midfielder to kick goals are some combination of speed, power, height/marking, penetration, accuracy. He lacks all of them. Same with Brayshaw. Look at how many goals Neale kicks for example. Not many.
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It seems what you're saying there is that to kick lots of goals you've got to be good at kicking goals.

Serong and Brayshaw have enough speed and power I'd argue. What do you mean by "penetration", is that distance of kick or field positioning?
 

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arsesmart said:
It seems what you're saying there is that to kick lots of goals you've got to be good at kicking goals.

Serong and Brayshaw have enough speed and power I'd argue. What do you mean by "penetration", is that distance of kick or field positioning?
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They need to focus on hip thrusts in the gym?
 
arsesmart said:
It seems what you're saying there is that to kick lots of goals you've got to be good at kicking goals.

Serong and Brayshaw have enough speed and power I'd argue. What do you mean by "penetration", is that distance of kick or field positioning?
Click to expand...

Distance of kick. Obviously that greatly limits your ability to score from range, snaps and under physical pressure.

Serong and Brayshaw do not have a high level of explosiveness when compared to Warner, Heeney, Petracca, De Goey, etc. For little guys it would be Bolton or Zac Bailey territory.

They are both excellent players, but Neale/Mitchell territory. AA/Brownlow quality, but not big goal scorers. It's unrealistic to expect JL can do anything to turn them into goal kickers.
 
arsesmart said:
It seems what you're saying there is that to kick lots of goals you've got to be good at kicking goals.

Serong and Brayshaw have enough speed and power I'd argue. What do you mean by "penetration", is that distance of kick or field positioning?
Click to expand...
Neither of them are objectively “good” at kicking goals. One could perhaps call Andy Brayshaw average at kicking goals. Even that is being generous really. Below average is probably a more accurate description of Andy as a goalkicking Mid.

He’s played 133 games of AFL footy and kicked 45 goals. I think he’s on course for a very fine 300 game career all up but I’ll be very surprised if he has kicked more than 115 goals by that point. If anything this year he’s gone backwards a bit actually.

Caleb had played 90 games of AFL footy and kicked 19 goals. Another outstanding player in many ways and should easily make 300 games injury permitting but hard to see him making it to even 100 career goals. We are almost halfway though season 2024 now and he’s been fantastic in so many aspects, but is yet to kick a goal.

Our problems with kicking midfield goals will not be solved by these two guys and it would be foolish for the coaches to put their faith in that solution. There is over 200 games of evidence now supporting this point of view.

For some context of what is considered objectively good as a midfielder from a goal kicking point of view -
Bontempelli has kicked 214 goals in 226 career games.
Patrick Dangerfield has kicked 329 goals in 326 games.
Dustin Martin has kicked 332 goals in 297 games.
Christian Petracca has kicked 181 goals in 186 games.
Conor Rozee has kicked 105 goals in 114 games.
This is why everyone is so keen to get Chad Warner - 15 goals in 10 games this season. Would complement Brayshaw and Serongs other strengths perfectly in a well balanced midfield.
 
Alfonz said:
Distance of kick. Obviously that greatly limits your ability to score from range, snaps and under physical pressure.

Serong and Brayshaw do not have a high level of explosiveness when compared to Warner, Heeney, Petracca, De Goey, etc. For little guys it would be Bolton or Zac Bailey territory.

They are both excellent players, but Neale/Mitchell territory. AA/Brownlow quality, but not big goal scorers. It's unrealistic to expect JL can do anything to turn them into goal kickers.
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It's arguable whether that's fixed or changeable. I would tend to think it could be adjusted, whether that's a short term or long term thing is another matter. But another angle is whether can live and even thrive with what we've got there.

Gulden is another who lacks size yet can produce the goals. The question to ask is what makes him different (ie innate or learnable)?
 
For mids to kick goals, they usually need at least one of a few types of traits.

  1. Height (or elite aerial ability) - to be able to take marks when pushing forward. Eg. Bont/Fyfe/Danger/Heeney etc
  2. Speed/Power - to be able to break the lines from the centre square and cut the 50m line at good pace. Eg. Warner/S.Hill/Isaac Smith/Ablett
  3. Raking kick - Gulden/Houston/Farrell/Martin
Some of these overlap, but you get the sense.

Unfortunately, apart from Young and Sharp, I don't think any of our mids have the base characteristics to kick many goals. It's the reason why this board got uber excited by the 0.5% chance that Warner will be available next season.
 
arsesmart said:
It's arguable whether that's fixed or changeable. I would tend to think it could be adjusted, whether that's a short term or long term thing is another matter. But another angle is whether can live and even thrive with what we've got there.

Gulden is another who lacks size yet can produce the goals. The question to ask is what makes him different (ie innate or learnable)?
Click to expand...

Gulden is close to the best field kick in the competition. Gulden can also kick from 55m+. He's not even that accurate by his field kicking standards when shooting, but still much better than Brayshaw and in particular Serong. He also has a confidence where he actively seeks out and accepts more responsibility to take shots.

And to digress from Gulden, for me a perfect example of the difference in mindset/ability happened in front of me at the Sydney game. Serong takes a mark 50m out. You know he has absolutely zero chance of getting even remotely close to kicking the goal. And so does he. Later on near the same spot, Warner gets the ball even further out, and his immediate thought is to kick a goal. He gets it 60+ out and takes the tackler on, then kicks it from beyond 50, straight over the head of open options closer to goal.

It's simply a fact that Brayshaw and Serong will never be able to do what Gulden and Warner do with respect to kicking goals.
 
Alfonz said:
Gulden is close to the best field kick in the competition. Gulden can also kick from 55m+. He's not even that accurate by his field kicking standards when shooting, but still much better than Brayshaw and in particular Serong. He also has a confidence where he actively seeks out and accepts more responsibility to take shots.

And to digress from Gulden, for me a perfect example of the difference in mindset/ability happened in front of me at the Sydney game. Serong takes a mark 50m out. You know he has absolutely zero chance of getting even remotely close to kicking the goal. And so does he. Later on near the same spot, Warner gets the ball even further out, and his immediate thought is to kick a goal. He gets it 60+ out and takes the tackler on, then kicks it from beyond 50, straight over the head of open options closer to goal.

It's simply a fact that Brayshaw and Serong will never be able to do what Gulden and Warner do with respect to kicking goals.
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That Serong mark was a great example in the Sydney game. From memory he was just inside 50 but still well out of his own range.

Matthew Johnson could have the attributes to kick a lot of goals from midfield, even if he got 0.5 a game it wiuld be very useful
 
Alfonz said:
Gulden is close to the best field kick in the competition. Gulden can also kick from 55m+. He's not even that accurate by his field kicking standards when shooting, but still much better than Brayshaw and in particular Serong. He also has a confidence where he actively seeks out and accepts more responsibility to take shots.

And to digress from Gulden, for me a perfect example of the difference in mindset/ability happened in front of me at the Sydney game. Serong takes a mark 50m out. You know he has absolutely zero chance of getting even remotely close to kicking the goal. And so does he. Later on near the same spot, Warner gets the ball even further out, and his immediate thought is to kick a goal. He gets it 60+ out and takes the tackler on, then kicks it from beyond 50, straight over the head of open options closer to goal.

It's simply a fact that Brayshaw and Serong will never be able to do what Gulden and Warner do with respect to kicking goals.
Click to expand...
You could see how particularly careful everyone started to get kicking for goal in that game. That timidity is not conducive to kicking. Mainly because it takes them away from process (present & actionable) and into outcome (non-present & non-actionable). It's maybe why Dunstall talked about kicking from long range releasing Amiss to kick well.

But the key to me is not how they are, but what could be changed/developed with goal kicking. I'd still think it is something that could be built upon. Powerful kicking really is a combination of timing+balance+muscle. Timing and balance being the more key factors, given the gym work they do across the board. Accuracy is something like alignment+focus+economy of technique.

At the end of the day though the whole "goal kicking midfielders" thing really is just a more siloed way of saying "broader spread of goal kickers". So if we can get a wider spread, regardless of who, it achieves a similar end.
 
Dockeroo said:
That Serong mark was a great example in the Sydney game. From memory he was just inside 50 but still well out of his own range.

Matthew Johnson could have the attributes to kick a lot of goals from midfield, even if he got 0.5 a game it wiuld be very useful
Click to expand...
If Young, Johnson and Sharp become regular goal kickers from the midfield, the pressure will come off Bradshaw and Serong, who’d likely start kicking more as well if they are able to relax more and not feel the burden that’s been growing all year.
 
arsesmart said:
You could see how particularly careful everyone started to get kicking for goal in that game. That timidity is not conducive to kicking. Mainly because it takes them away from process (present & actionable) and into outcome (non-present & non-actionable). It's maybe why Dunstall talked about kicking from long range releasing Amiss to kick well.
Click to expand...
This is massive.

One of the reasons why McKay is better from long range, he kicks through the ball for distance rather than nursing it through for accuracy (which has the opposite effect as it brings in other external factors).

Pick a point in the crowd and aim for that.
 
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