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Draft Watcher Knightmare 2020 Draft Almanac
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Knightmare you think Varagiannis from Oakleigh will get drafted? Saw he kicked nine from a flank in an APS game last year, he was phantom top 10 in this draft a couple of years ago and apparently has some elite pressure and kicking but haven't seen much of him recently
- Aug 21, 2016
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Think he means how he has received any media attention, like worpel and slipped down the draft order, and the he turned out to be a gun at afl level. And those who had anything to do with worpel always knew he was going to be a gun.
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Disagree - I think we go Hollands.
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Hey Knightmare, who are your top 3 most damaging mids? The guys who can run away from a clearance and kick goals.
I assume Hollands is up there, possibly Campbell as well. Which others do you like?
I assume Hollands is up there, possibly Campbell as well. Which others do you like?
Knightmare
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I'm more than happy to contradict a list management team when I believe their methodology is suboptimal as I would say is the case with North Melbourne in this case, particularly in the list position they're in. It's a case of shedding still able enough veterans when the youth is unextrodinary, adding more questionable youth (Atu/Young) and not making the most of the numerous trade period opportunities (aside from Stephenson who I feel is a great value recruit) and not making the most of this historic opportunity to add delisted talent during this delisted free agency period. When you're a bad team with a list that is light on and needs to add more talent and more good players, you need to make the most of every opportunity available to you and my opinion is North Melbourne haven't done that and have delisted the wrong guys then gone after the wrong guys.
I'm not sure why you're promoting North Melbourne's defence. Tarrant is excellent. McDonald had a breakout year and was excellent. Walker I like and rate in defence. Atley is serviceable. The rest of that group aren't any team best-22 players and are downgrades on those North Melbourne previously had.
Corr I don't rate. Less than 0.5 contested marks per game (outside the top 150). Outside the top 150 for intercepts per game also. Nothing wrong with him as a stopper and his ball use is fine. But if I want a key defender, I want someone who takes intercept marks and can take contested marks. There needs to be some component of that even if their role is to play primarily as a stopper. Nullifying a contest is no longer enough in the AFL game, scores come from turnovers. You need the forward pressure up the ground and the intercepting behind the ball to create those scores off turnovers and prevent the opposite by not allowing the opposing from half to get the ball to ground and create opportunities for their crumbers and pressure forwards to create opportunities.
If you asked me whether I'd prefer to have Corr, Perez, McKay, Hayden and Young. Or as an alternative have the chance to have Daw, Pittard, Wood (he can be better in defence),Williams and Ahern as defenders. I'd take the latter group and at each position. I don't LOVE any of those group you're proposing, Corr included. They're more guys where you hope they develop, but you just don't know if they'll be good enough.
As a methodology I completely disagree with North Melbourne's approach to list management this offseason. It's copying Melbourne's failed formula from 10 years ago where they did away with the bulk of their veterans and left little in the way of leadership or able established footballers. Put a bunch of young players of mild at best talent together and it's not only going to hurt performance and memberships in the short term but it's also going to more importantly over the long term hurt rather than help the development of their youth.
It's incredible when you look back and actually analyse lists past. Were Melbourne able to maximise the development of Jack Watts, Tom Scully or Jack Trengove?
What about Carlton with Marc Murphy, Bryce Gibbs and Matthew Kreuzer?
Why did those scenarios work out worse than the likes of Pendlebury to Collingwood? Buddy to Hawks? Selwood to Geelong? Dangerfield to Adelaide? Why were those guys more successful? It's a simple formula. Have a good head coach, good assistant and development coaches, have a good captain, have good veteran leadership, and through all that develop a strong culture.
Who did Pendlebury have? Mick Malthouse and a bunch of assistant coaches who went on to senior head coaching jobs. What about as leadership? How about Buckley/Maxwell/Burns/Clement/Rocca etc.
Who did Buddy have? Clarkson. Future head coaches. What about as leadership? How about Hodge/Mitchell/Crawford/Vandenberg etc.
Who did Selwood have? Thompson. Future head coaches. What about as leadership? How about Harley/Ling/Bartel/Corey/Scarlett/Milburn etc.
Who did Danger have? Several coaches and several assistants, but each coach he played under had a 50% or higher win record. What about leadership? Goodwin/McLeod/Thompson/Rutten/Edwards. They still had that veteran core.
North Melbourne's current position is one where there are still a small few veterans, but until there are young players worth bringing into the senior team (I disagree with your identification of North Melbourne's talent in that I don't see them as a collective as being worth bringing in) then there is no point moving on still reasonable senior players. What needs clearing out is North Melbourne's youth with a view towards bringing in better players. And I'd be bringing in a better leadership group and I'd be looking at the broader coaching group and deciding on what's a formula that will work better, as what has been there certainly hasn't gotten the club anywhere meaningful, with North Melbourne's last top-4 opportunity being in 2007.
As for North Melbourne's midfield, I'd actually spoken North Melbourne's midfield up throughout the year if you go through my posting history. Simpkin is good already and LDU I agree with you can develop into a piece with his late season signs positive and suggesting he's while slower than expected at least trending now in the right direction finally as someone who certainly has the talent to become good. Cunnington is good. Anderson is fair and plays a role. Dumont is another good piece, though outside does his best work. T.Thomas could eventually play some midfield, Bonar will need to improve though first and hasn't to date done enough. Zurhaar I like forward of centre as a target and good user but don't feel like he'd be good enough through the midfield, though more than happy to be proven wrong if he can add that to his game. Stephenson is mostly a forward at this stage though I give him a chance to make it on a wing given he has both the speed, aerobic capacity and is an able mark, but as a midfielder he'd need to radically improve the contested side of his game so I'm not seeing that in his future either.
If I'm picking that midfield, Cunnington, Anderson and Simpkin start inside with LDU rotating mid/fwd and Kennedy able to flip mid/fwd with him. Ziebell can rotate through the mids. Polec I like on the outside, and Hall I still view as viable for selection consideration. Kennedy is hardly old at just 23 and fits the age demographic North Melbourne will be looking to add to. If you don't rate Kennedy on talent, fair enough, but I see him as someone who on a lot of teams is genuine best-22 quality as someone I'd back to win 10 contested possessions per game while still getting forward and taking a few important marks and kicking nearing a goal per game. I think as a mid that's more than enough to make him justifiable for a lot of teams, with his improvement this year really impressing me.
If a star midfielder is brought in be it this year and/or next year, I don't see that as a problem. Having a good number of good mids is a good problem to have, and a lot of those guys can play forward. Polec/Hall/Cunnington/Ziebell are nearing the end, so if there is a pick where a mid is the best available player, there is room for North Melbourne to add more good mids.
Who did North Melbourne just waste senior list positions on? Atu and Young. Corr I don't rate and would prefer not to have to utilise as one of my key defenders given he's neither an intercepter nor a contested marking threat.
Who should North Melbourne have added?
Through delisted free agency: Connor Ballenden (upgrade on Corr/McKay and big upgrade on Durdin), Matthew Kennedy (good rotation mid who can also rest forward - and I feel like for a lot of teams he could be a good 4th best mid), Marty Gleeson (aside from McDonald would be instantly North Melbourne's next best general defender and depending on preferences some may say Atley, but I prefer Gleeson if I could have one or the other as the better stopper, intercepter and ball user), Noah Gown (with Brown going would be a good choice to pair with Larkey, particularly if McDonald goes pick 1).
It seems your understanding of delisted free agency in this case is the incorrect understanding.
– At List Lodgement (1), any Player a Club wishes to transfer under this provision is delisted per the AFL Rules, for the following reasons:
Allows all 18 AFL Clubs to consider offering a delisted Player a Primary List spot for 2021.
Allows a delisted Player to receive free agency for life status.
– During the Delisted Free Agency Period (2), Clubs will be permitted to transfer a maximum of two Players who were previously on the Club’s 2020 Primary List directly onto their 2021 Category A Rookie List.
– If the Club and Player cannot come to an agreement, the Player will be considered a Delisted Free Agent, per the AFL Rules, and has the opportunity to nominate for the 2020 NAB AFL National Draft or the 2020 NAB AFL Pre-Season Draft.
The deadline for List Lodgement (2) is 2:00pm (AEDT) Monday November 30, 2020.
Key dates for the 2020 NAB AFL Draft Period
Wednesday 25 November
• List Lodgement 1
• Nomination of Draft Eligible Father/Son Players Lodged
• Nomination of Draft Eligible Northern & NGA Academy Players Lodged
Thursday 26 November
• AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (1) Commences
Sunday 29 November
• AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (1) Closes
Monday 30 November
• List Lodgement 2
• Out of Contract Listed AFL Primary List Players Draft Nomination Form and Player Request for Removal from List Form Lodged with AFL
• Final date for Primary List delistings
Tuesday 1 December
• AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (2) Commences
Wednesday 2 December
• AFL Delisted Player Free Agency Period (2) Closes
Where are we up to? We're still delisted free agency period 1 as per the dates listed above which allows clubs to secure the likes of Ballenden/Kennedy/Gleeson as free agents. This still gives these delisted players opportunities to join rival clubs as delisted free agents before the clubs that have delisted them (yes Ballenden/Kennedy/Gleeson have all been formally delisted) can be added onto their rookie lists directly, and not having to go through the draft to do so.
I'm not news reporter. I'm a freelance journalist and a draft analyst, but I have indeed having a strong interest in this delisted free agency period in particular been following the unique rules that have come about this offseason with the list size reduction.
Now that we are up to date with the rules. Let's move onto the interesting stuff with talent what I find interesting.
What about during the trade period who should North Melbourne have targeted?
Callum Coleman-Jones, Jack Sinclair, Darcy MacPherson, Lachie Fogarty, Josh Caddy, Alex Sexton, Alex Witherden, Dylan Roberton and Sydney Stack all as budget and underutilised types if available on the cheap all are among a quick shortlist of guys who could have improved North Melbourne's best 22 and have provided good position fits based on existing list needs, as with the delisted free agents available. Of those incredibly only Fogarty and Witherden moved, and none of them were must keeps for their existing clubs.
This is why I talk about this offseason as the transferring of wealth. From the unintelligent to the intelligent. North Melbourne were smart enough to go get Stephenson, but they've entirely missed the opportunity to add a long list of players who are plug and play best 22 and can improve the list immediately at no meaningful cost. And North Melbourne are hardly alone in missing opportunities, clubs across the competition really have failed to realise the opportunities that this trade period in particular presented, with only a small few capitalising, though even many of those that did could have in my view done even more to improve their lists to greater degrees through the trade period.
I've already gone through the North Melbourne midfield and gone through why I like North Melbourne's midfield on a relative basis, but feel there is always opportunity to add. Phasing out Dumont would be a mistake. He's a good outside mid. All the mids you mention barr Bonar who also has a lot of developing to do are capable. I'm not however of the opinion that having just those guys is enough. Midfield isn't the number one need of North Melbourne by any stretch, but when there is opportunity to add able mids at little or no cost, or when they represent decisive best available value through the draft, absolutely you go get that.
Like with the previous poster I have already responded to, I see no reason to talk up Corr, Perez or Hayden and I share none of your excitement about any of them at this point in time. Perez and Hayden are still developing players who you're hoping will be good enough while Corr is below average by position.
What I can agree on to some extent with is that there will be mid-season draft opportunities to add worthwhile talent, though if history tells us anything, clubs will probably be looking at a lot of mature agers as opposed to those overlooked from this year's pool more than they should and a number will still make it through into the draft proper as Jake Riccardi was last year, albeit from the VFL, one year removed from playing as an overager in the TAC Cup. I do however view the delisted free agency opportunities favourably despite this, and this is yet another opportunity that only adds fuel to my view that you want to clear list positions of players who aren't best 22 players and get rid of any speculative/unlikely to develop youth in favour of opportunities during this trade and delisted free agency periods, with at the same time still a look ahead in as much as least as to have opportunities available to add talent during the year.
Knightmare
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Not a name I've heard this year at all in any conversations but had some decent NAB League moments last year. I don't know anything about him being included in any phantom drafts, or why he would be included in any, but he's someone who did enough where I'd encourage him to come back for another year with Oakleigh and show us how much better he is.
I don't so much see their stories as so similar.
Ford wasn't last year so advanced and is more a bigfooty hype player than anything, and someone it feels like people are getting excited about off of his game tapes. He's not that level of sure thing and more someone many are speculating based on attributes can transition into a midfielder. And maybe he would have done that successfully this year, we're speculating. He's not someone on performance where as I did with Worpel at the time suggest that he's a late first or early second round choice on quality. Ford is more a second rounder solid on performance if we're to speculate a little based on what most expected.
Worpel on the other hand was dominant a year out from his draft and didn't need to improve a lot. He was a man-child even then and a really high level midfielder then. He was one I spoke about at the time as one of the most underrated in his draft year. I feel like with Ford, he's rated within the industry based on where it seems like he's rated, about right.
There is damaging and different damaging.
I would call Phillips very damaging given he'll win it contested and has that burst from stoppages. Likewise Berry. They're probably just not kicking goals from 55m on the run as I'd say of Hollands or Campbell.
If there was a third damaging guy in the sense you're thinking, Port Adelaide's Jones I would nominate as that 3rd guy.
Random aside on Campbell, and he can play midfield, but I can't help but be curious as to how he would look off half-back considering how good his skills and run are. Perkins is another where despite playing mostly forward and mid, I feel like his game would be maximised in defence with the way he takes on the game so aggressively.
Pykie
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North had the most 26-29 year olds in the league and finished 17th. What did you want the club to do, keep those list cloggers with very little scope of any development and just continue being completely shit?
I'm not promoting North's defence.
YOU were the person that said North's only two medium defenders were Shaun Atley and Luke McDonald. I'm allowed to call that out.
Kayden and Perez ARE best 22 upgrades on the others. They literally replaced Pittard and Williams in the best 22 and were part of the reason they were delisted.
Just because YOU don't "rate him" doesn't make him a bad player. He finished top 10 in GWS' best and fairest and has elite speed for his size. He was recruited to be the stopper to play on smalls/talls. Not to be the intercept marking defender. You have his role confused.
Be honest, did you watch North at all this year? Did you watch much football outside of Collingwood games?
The above may be the most out of touch thing you have said in your previous two posts.
Wood can't be a defender, sorry. I watched it first hand. You need to drop this. Charlie Comben and Nick Larkey kicked about 6 goals on him in the space of 15 minutes in pre-season. Williams and Pittard were absolutely diabolical this year. Why haven't any of the above been picked up?
McKay was probably North's most improved player this year. He polled 4th in the B&F for votes per game and I would have him on equal standing with Simpkin and LDU as the most promosing young player at the club at the moment.
Sigh.
Copying Melbourne and Carlton's model?
What about St Kilda and Essendon who cut equally the same amount of players this offseason?
As I said, we had the most amount of 26-29 year olds in the comp and they were taking us nowhere.
In 2011 (After the cull that you were referring to with Melbourne), their senior players consisted of 27 year old Brent Maloney and 23 year old Nathan Jones.
How is that at all comparable to retainining Tarrant (32), Goldstein (32), Hall (30), Ziebell (30), Cunnington (30), Atley (28), Polec (28), Walker (28), Anderson (27) on the list? Oh, it's not really comparable.
You can't possibly have watched any AFL football of Corr and McKay and come to the conclusion that Connor Ballendan in his 2 career games and 5 career marks before his delisting is an upgrade on Aiden Corr and Ben McKay, both of whom finished top 10 in their clubs B&F's. You are letting junior bias getting in the way of reality.
Most Essendon fans hate Gleeson, I think I'm going to back at least the possibility of Perez, whom came off of no football in 1.5 years, no VFL football, no top age draft year, no pre-season and an ACL and didn't look out of place, might reach the lofty heights of 15 possessions a game off of half back and reach Gleesons level.
History tells us absolutely nothing about the quality of the 19 year olds that will be available next year after this seasons circumstances.
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I don't see Sicily specifically. It's more the strengths, size and positional comparison that made me think of him.
Watching Zac's highlights I noticed a bit of Jordan Ridley in his kicking style. Incredibly straight and accurate ball drop without much margin for error. In a strong system I feel he could become elite in this department.
In saying all of this, I wasn't even familiar with him until last week when I did my own research. I like his current attributes and wish him the best at whichever club he ends up at.
AnEmptyChair
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It's a crowded field, but "If you asked me whether I'd prefer to have Corr, Perez, McKay, Hayden and Young. Or as an alternative have the chance to have Daw, Pittard, Wood (he can be better in defence),Williams and Ahern as defenders. I'd take the latter group and at each position" might be the dumbest North-related thing I've heard this year.
Anyone who watched even a single minute of North footy after the GWS game and doesn't base their entire understanding of the game on stat sheets would realise how absolutely nonsense this statement is.
Anyone who watched even a single minute of North footy after the GWS game and doesn't base their entire understanding of the game on stat sheets would realise how absolutely nonsense this statement is.
Brenton Davy
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Knightmare Wow!
Presumably you're not planning a visit to the NMFC Cheer Squad (Do they have one?) anytime soon...
Not unless you're some sort of sado-masochistic nutjob lol
Presumably you're not planning a visit to the NMFC Cheer Squad (Do they have one?) anytime soon...
Not unless you're some sort of sado-masochistic nutjob lol
The German Hunter
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You guys come on Knightmares page expecting him to paint a glorious picture of what a great list North have. It’s laughable really.
Why don’t you guys take your wonderful appraisals back to the North board
Knightmare
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I don't feel like North Melbourne's 26-29 guys were the problem and the list I don't see is as bad as the standard of performance this year should suggest. My view instead is the youth is the problem. Who are the table young guys? Simpkin? Thomas? LDU? Zurhaar? Maybe Larkey? Maybe Taylor? It's a short list. Why is that list short? I don't believe it's from a lack of senior opportunities. North Melbourne should never have forced Brent Harvey into retirement. He had another 2 good years solid left, and he probably still would have on performance played to a clear top-5 on list standard as he still was in his very last seasons was performing to. Who has replaced him? Could a Zurhaar have benefitted from developing under him? I believe strongly he would have, as with the rest of the mids and forwards. When you're replacing, someone, you need to replace them with someone better.
Hayden and Perez I don't feel like are there yet, and same story with Young. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but they're in my view not yet better than the guys they're replacing and have the work ahead of them to prove they are better players. That's not to say they can't, they've got the opportunity. But as we speak, they're not there yet. Would they benefit from a Pittard still being around? I believe so. Was part of the leadership group this year. Great clubman. Before he was drafted, he was being spoken about by some club insiders as someone they'd happily take on even then as an assistant coach. Now the closest thing to a mentor those guys have is Luke McDonald, and he has some leadership capabilities, but McDonald and Pittard as two good leaders among those veteran defenders is better.
North Melbourne's list problems include a lack of star power and a lack of quality youth, with the broader problems being some combination of on average below average talent identification and below average player development and coaching, leading to the results we have seen these past 10+ years.
Is quality youth essential towards teams becoming good? I would contend not. We're in the free agency era and an era of easier player movement. Building through the draft is merely one way of building a list, and I'd contend, not as effective of a method as building through superiority of opposition talent identification. Have Geelong over the past 10 years built through the draft and remained competitive without meaningful drop off since 2007? They haven't needed to go build their list through the draft to maintain that strong list. Hawthorn? How did they have such a strong period from 2008-2019? Same story, little draft involvement and identified and capitalised on opposition talent ID. How did Sydney's 2009 side go from looking like it needed a refresh to a premiership contender after that? Opposition talent ID. Josh Kennedy and Shane Mumford. Kane Pitman for ESPN earlier in the week did a good piece on this very topic of how Geelong have remained so good for so long without needing to go heavy on the draft and it's a topic I plan to explore in a future video in even greater depth to disprove the notion that clubs need to build through the draft.
In North Melbourne's situation, I'd be going the Geelong route. Absolutely those early picks can be kept and used assuming no spectacular trade opportunities to radically improve the list, you always need to consider opportunity cost, but with those later picks and for some players who are expendable and can be moved, absolutely I'd be this year with the opportunities available this offseason making moves, and I'd be gaining those undervalued capable players who are underutilised or being played out of position if they are of a standard where they're walkup best 22 starts. North Melbourne did add players from rival lists, but of those added, only Stephenson in my view is worthwhile, with Young and Atu taking up precious list positions that could have been used on better talents who can more meaningfully upgrade the club's list.
I'm not the only person who doesn't rate Aidan Corr. Champion Data don't either, rating Corr 'below average.' While Majak Daw by contrast, was rated elite on the back of his strong 2018 season, as a point of comparison. Jasper Pittard who I regard as suitable for some list situations coincidently also received a higher rating, rated above average by position. One bad year on a bad team shouldn't be career ending, with there being value in looking back at the volume of work.
Wood is someone who needs a full season in defence. Not a preseason game or two then dropping it. That's an experiment given up on too quickly and is the only way he really could become worthwhile for re-selection as someone who never developed adequate consistency as a forward.
As for the teams I watched this season, I watched all teams, with some teams more than others. All teams I'd confidently say I watched 6+ times this year. North Melbourne and Adelaide this year were a snore-fest with the relative lack of competitiveness and lack of good youth, so I watched them easily the least, while Gold Coast for a point of comparison I didn't miss a game of with their youth this year in particularly catching my interest, and GWS I wouldn't have missed more than maybe 1 game, if I missed any of their games. Why are those teams relatively more interesting? They're basically recruiting ground for talent, with a good number of able players outside the best 22s respectively. I could say similar for Brisbane who likewise have a lot of talent outside their best 22. They're the teams I want to watch the most beyond just my own team.
Ben McKay may have improved, but he still has yet to win me over. =171st in contested marks at less than 0.5 per game. Outside the top 75 in intercepts. Wins a low % contested. Not a rebounder. He has a chance to make the grade, but he's on the clock, and like with LDU, while I'm optimistic with LDU with the signs he showed late, particularly against Port Adelaide, he isn't there yet, and if McKay's polling 4th in the B+F, that would be pretty demoralising and really speak to where the group is at when someone who played just 11 games and was unextraordinary polls even inside the top-10.
I have similar to say of St Kilda and Essendon, delisting some guys I rate. Savage can still play. Marsh can still be a key defender for a team but needs that continuity of position. St Kilda just have two teams worth of defenders which makes it so hard to keep them all - and clubs, North Melbourne included missed out on the opportunity to raid their defence. Essendon let go of Gown prematurely which was silly given their questionable key forward stocks, with his first VFL season in 2019 was excellent for those who watch VFL and Gleeson can play and is a piece all clubs should be considering. Gown has the scope to be better than Wright if given a few more years to develop. This is why I made a video about this delisted free agency period being a transition of wealth and an opportunity for clubs this year. Talent has been thrown out and is available for clubs to add.
Essendon not biting at Shane Savage being available after Saad has been traded and McKenna has retired? He's a perfect short term solution who can fill that hole for a couple of years and can really generate drive from defence.
North Melbourne as you say do have older guys remaining, and that's a positive, but as I've been saying. If you're going to delist able veterans you need to be upgrading the list. Stephenson to date is that only upgrade made. Entirely too much focus gets placed on age demographics of a list within the industry. 30 isn't retirement age. Guys can play until they can't. It isn't a requirement to remove still productive veterans to make room for youth. Make the youth earn their spots and prove their better than the vets, and when it's clear the vets are outside best 22, get rid of them. Adding talent doesn't have to be youth. North Melbourne could have added five guys 25+, and if they're upgrading the list in 5 positions. And the same occurs each year thereafter. Absolutely the list can improve. You're still taking guys through the draft, and you can still get younger guys via the draft or trade period, and not all guys you add from rival lists will be 25+. Age demographics is a blind spot for clubs. What are Haiden Schloithe, Jye Bolton, Mitch Grigg doing on state league lists? They should have been on AFL lists years ago if clubs weren't blind to those older than their ideal age demographics would suggest they should be adding. Look at the success James Podsiadly had. Recruited in his late 20s and goes on and played 100+ games and almost kicks 200 goals, and absolutely killed it. Youth is nice because there tends to be an upward growth trajectory and you can enjoy the benefits they provide your list for longer, but there are low cost veterans who can be added to improve your list and value can still be extracted from them. And when there's talent, no matter the age, go get them if they represent value and can add to your best 22 and make your list better. What matters is creating a winning list, it doesn't matter how you do it. Geelong and Hawthorn for the longest time are evidence of this, and I don't believe you have to start from such an incredibly high baseline level either as Sydney proved when adding Mumford and Kennedy.
Gleeson I like because he can either play as a stopper and win his 1v1s or you can have him intercept and he reads it really nicely. I'd love to have him on my list. And a Perez can come good, and may well break through this year. But he's someone still I'd say I'd be hoping comes good rather than having the evidence he will, with his final game, coming against West Coast that first sign that maybe he has what it takes.
Ballenden I'm a fan of not only based on his junior career but also what he was doing in the NEAFL. For those that aren't aware, I watched a lot of NEAFL Football and enjoyed a lot of what the Gold Coast, Brisbane and GWS reserves teams in particular were doing, with a lot of those guys running around in their 2s in my view AFL grade. Weaker competition, and with Ballenden it was frustrating seeing him switch around key forward, ruck, key back. Talls need continuity, so I don't feel like Brisbane did his development any favours, but with that said, in each position he played, he dominated and looked the goods. I've liked most what he does as a key defender, and unfortunately Brisbane rarely played him there, and didn't at AFL level either in his two games, but the way he reads it and can take a grab for someone with his capabilities at that height and size, he's someone I'd take in a hurry as a delisted free agent. I don't like speculating ordinarily on guys who haven't played a lot at AFL level and proven at that level they're clear AFL standard, but Ballenden a bit like Balta a year ago, not quite to that same extent, just feels like a case of he needs more opportunity, though the difference being with Ballenden he needs that run of opportunities where he's best suited - as a key defender. If it's a Collingwood context as merely one example, I'd throw him in, in the place of Roughead and give him a stretch of senior games at AFL level. His capabilities in defence are better as the better intercepter and contested mark of the pair and better ball user on top of that, without necessarily needing to lose much other than some experience from a shutdown perspective.
It’s a draft thread and as I said, he should stick to draft discussion IMO.
Issue is he’s gone into list management discussion, when he clearly does not watch nor pay close attention to Norf.
Anyone with any clue of our last 5 years of list management, would understand his views on “the mistakes” Norf are making, are just not accurate. He’s essentially asking us to do exactly what we’ve done since the end of 2016 - bringing in/retaining recycled hacks.
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Pykie
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i don’t come on this page unless I have to, it’s generally to refute utter baseless statements.
Sorry, you don’t have free reign to post anything on this website as a statement of fact and not expect a right of reply, just because it’s “your thread”.
Especially on the public boards.
The draft board isn’t the Bay.
The German Hunter
Premiership Player
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So why is it upsetting you guys so much if it’s not his forte.
He is giving his POV from the outside.
I believe Knightmare has the right to go into any discussion he chooses too on his own forum page.
Pykie
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North Melbourne - North 2007 Player Sponsor
North Melbourne - 2013 Daw, Black and Gibson Player Sponsorship
Im not going to write you another essay, some of your assessments of some players are so far off the mark it frankly puts most of your opinions on draftees fairly up for discussion.
If you miss the mark so widely on some players you can watch every week on national TV, it puts into question your views on players you can’t readily watch.
I did laugh at the Larkey maybe? Taylor maybe? Comments.
Look up the rising star statistics of the last two seasons and still tell a North supporter who watches every minute of them every season that our youth is actually our problem not out shit truck batch of 26-29 years (who all got delisted and all of which are not currently linked to a single club).
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Pykie
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Pokemon is Life
North Melbourne - North 2007 Player Sponsor
North Melbourne - 2013 Daw, Black and Gibson Player Sponsorship
Its not his forum and his not his board, sorry.
He’s also doing some solid veiled trolling.
I dont think he can run lines like “it must be demoralizing if Ben McKay...” or “I wouldn’t be laughing if I was a North supporter etc” without expectation of some blowback.
If you give it, he’s got to take it.
The mods like Chris25 are around to keep the peace, he doesn’t need his fanboi’s to go to war for him.
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There’s a distinct difference between “getting upset” and “calling out” lazy analysis.
People can dig in about North as much as they want. I’m a very harsh critic of the club and how it has handled itself from a list management perspective over the last 5 years, myself. So when someone who only watches 6 north games a year, suggests that we continue to make the same poor list management decisions we’ve made for the last 5 years, I’m going to call out bulls***.
AnEmptyChair
Premiership Player
- Nov 12, 2020
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Mate, despite being utterly pretentious at times with his "I'm more than happy to contradict a list management team when I believe their methodology is suboptimal" type of guff (which, in itself, is a remarkably smug statement), I respect the effort he puts in with his posts and his willingness to answer everyone's questions.
But when his takes are categorically wrong and clearly coming having not watched the footy that he's talking about, fans every right to call it out as unmitigated bullshit, which in this case it clearly is to anyone that watched us for five minutes this year. No one's "expecting him to paint a glorious picture of what a great list North have." In fact, most rational North fans know we're in for a rebuild and a tough couple of years.
Knightmare
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Zac is definitely a straight and direct kick. He has good vision and is a precise kick. Will move the ball quickly if he finds a meaningful target. Maybe not ultra penetrating as someone on more-so the short to medium kicks in particular I've found to be excellent and to have particularly good placement.
He's one of those solid, polished general defenders where his skills are good and he can intercept. He's one of those good footballers without a great deal of athleticism.
Stylistically you have the right general idea though.
To go through the names.
Daw was an elite stopper in 2018. Wasn't granted a single opportunity in defence this year. He's never been effective as a key forward or ruckman, so using him out of position isn't going to maximise his capabilities.
Pittard generates meaningful drive from defence. He's a veteran leader who adds not only drive but leadership. It's been well known who he is for a long time, and you need to be able to take the good with the bad. But with how quickly and aggressively he gets the ball moving forward, he's someone who can fill that role and is fine to keep if you don't have a better alternative.
Wood needs a season solid before he can prove he's not able in defence. He's athletic, can take a grab. Give him the chance to adjust to the position. Inconsistent and not good enough as a forward. Give him a decent shot to learn how to play back, as his mix of attributes suggest that's where he should be able to play his best footy, if he can get the intercepting/defence balance right and learn when he can peel off and when not to, and that comes with time.
Williams has long been an able stopper. Very strong 1v1, but then has run. Can't kick. But he's an able role player. I don't hate him either. He's alright as a component.
Ahern on the other hand, and he didn't get to play in defence at all this year to my disappointment, but in 2019 the only times he played good football was in defence for those who were watching. His ball use and the drive he generated from defence was pretty reasonable during that stretch of three games at the end of 2019 and that's something that should have been explored more this season.
As I said, I don't hate any of their games, and that's the point I'm making. It's a group of guys who either weren't played in their optional spots, or weren't given the opportunity to be tried in positions their games should be best suited to. If they can be upgraded upon, then absolutely go get rid of them. But I'm not seeing those upgrades and that's where my problem is with North Melbourne at this point. That defence is awfully young, and if you're going that young, you better have stars, because when you've got a young defence, that's when teams get slaughtered.
North Melbourne's outlook for 2021 at the moment is looking a lot worse than the outlook for 2020 at this point in time. It's a big step back, particularly in defence and a wish and hope that some youth comes good.
There will always based on performance be a number of clubs I'll be harsh on, and normally it's going to be those worse performing clubs.
Only time I've had agreement with a harsh review of late has been from my awarding Collingwood an F during the trade period, the first 'F' I've awarded. But I guess that's going to happen with Treloar, Stephenson and Phillips are given away for peanuts.
Carlton fans following the trade period were happy with me for the first time in a long time, so it seems that things go in swings and roundabouts based on how harsh or complementary I am of their club in a particular moment.
AnEmptyChair
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Knightmare
Brownlow Medallist
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The notion I'm here to challenge, is the notion that rebuilding as a concept is necessary at all. And I'm here to challenge the idea that clubs have to go young. This is the worthwhile academic component to what is being argued and is a concept that needs discussion more.
Does Hawthorn as another club in a similar situation with few recent draft picks and a lot of veterans have to rebuild?
The Tom Phillips trade is a perfect example of what a club should be doing, irrespective of where they're at. They could have done more, and made more moves, had they identified more well fitting players, as with a lot of clubs, but that one trade is an example of a proactive move to get better.
Why is Phillips a good trade get? He's actually really good on a wing. This year he was poorly utilised. Played across half-forward. He wasn't comfortable. The reduced length of game also impacted him negatively as it did with a lot of the more talented aerobic athletes this year to reduce his output further. Hawthorn grabbing him as a direct Isaac Smith replacement is perfect. He was previously a Champion Data team of the year pick on a wing. He racks it up like crazy and is an endurance beast. Works hard both ways and hits the scoreboard.
I'm not saying what age players need to be. Age is irrelevant. Go improve your team. There are good veterans. There are good mid career guys. And there is also youth that can be added through the draft and with good talent ID they also can become best 22 pieces. It's not about going all draft, or all opposition talent ID. It's about opportunity cost. What is the opportunity cost for using up this list position on this player v that player. What's the opportunity cost of trading this pick, or this player. It all needs to be taken in the context of getting better, and the valuations need to be strong and each player should be there with a view towards them being ideally either present or future best 22 players, where you can clearly look at them and say the position and say when they're going to be that best 22 guy.
There isn't such dramatic difference in list quality between the best and worst teams. Clubs have been for a series of years there winning premierships after missing the top-8 the year before, or winning premierships with unlikely looking teams. Bottom clubs have made jumps without top draft picks. Building through the draft and/or building with just youth I don't view as the best way to build a list.
Absolutely you'll be taking your draft picks and it's a good idea to look for those sweet spots on value where you can maximise the return gained from each of those picks. And there are years where trading into the draft for more picks and moving players if you can get a return above what you believe a player should be worth, just as I'd say Essendon letting go of Joe Daniher, while he was going to go anyway, if you're getting a top-10 pick for a guy who has only been healthy for 15 games over 3 years, they're laughing when they're getting that kind of return for someone who is rarely available to play.
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