Review Knightmare's 2010-2013 top 40

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TheLastEmperor said:
Read my mind. The true test is evaluating the games greatest ruckman in comparison to greatest players of any position. Isolating the past 15 years greatest players where would Dean Cox rank vs Ablett, Brown, Scarlett, Judd, Riewoldt, Buddy, Hodge, etc. put it this way, Cox isn't talked about in that same conversation let alone at number 4 overall (where knighta ranks Grundy in the last few drafts).
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Personally, I'd have Cox in that same conversation.
 
TheLastEmperor said:
Read my mind. The true test is evaluating the games greatest ruckman in comparison to greatest players of any position. Isolating the past 15 years greatest players where would Dean Cox rank vs Ablett, Brown, Scarlett, Judd, Riewoldt, Buddy, Hodge, etc. put it this way, Cox isn't talked about in that same conversation let alone at number 4 overall (where knighta ranks Grundy in the last few drafts).
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It depends again on the evaluation of the importance placed on ruckmen and how you evaluate their games v the others.

Of those you list. Cox belongs on that list and outside of Ablett, I'm not sure I'd take any of them ahead of Cox. Riewoldt, Pavlich and Judd I'd be considering taking ahead of Cox without committing as players I'd put down to what positional need is most pressing for my team. With Cox my preference over certainly everyone else at this point when reflecting on the totality of impact over the past 15 years.
 
As I've said before on Grundy... I rate him as a player, but not a superstar.

He's making an earlier impact than most ruckman because he was so physically developed and his aggression and mindset give him instant competitiveness. He is not intimidated at all like most young ruckmen. That confidence is what they usually take years to develop and where their improvement comes from - when they believe they can match it with the big men.

I don't see him as a particularly smart or skilled player though.

So I actually think he's got less scope for improvement than others and don't see him developing too much from here. He'll get better, but not to the point where he's a top 10 ruckman ever.

At least that's how I see it. Ruckmen are the hardest to predict.
 

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Given how highly you rate Grundy Knightmare , i'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on Scott Lycett and how good you see him becoming.

Out of the side at the moment due to work rate but has serious potential as an elite ruckman.
 
WCEbrody said:
Given how highly you rate Grundy Knightmare , i'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on Scott Lycett and how good you see him becoming.

Out of the side at the moment due to work rate but has serious potential as an elite ruckman.
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I like Lycett's game a lot and believe is he certainly best 50 from 2010-2013, even if he hasn't had much of a senior opportunity yet.

He can be from tomorrow a genuine number one ruckman. And the bonus with Lycett as I'm sure you're well aware as a WCE fan is he can also play forward which is a major bonus.

Lycett has the scope to be a best five ruckman in the game. So that's nothing to be sneezed at.

And for West Coast. Lycett in my view is being badly underutilised. And I'd personally advise he ask for a trade at seasons end as with Naitanui the clear lead ruckman, Lycett isn't getting the games or the ruck minutes he should be.

If I'm an Essendon or Geelong and have a pick in the 5-10 range. I'm giving that up for Lycett, with the intent for Lycett to come in as that number one ruckman.
I'd give up Hawthorn's first round selection for Lycett, but I'd hope for West Coast's sake greater value could be received for Lycett.
The Western Bulldogs are another who could really use Lycett. GWS with Mumford yearly missing games.

So there are more than enough clubs who could use him and feature him a lot more prominently than West Coast are at the present time.
 
Knightmare said:
If that is your opinion I challenge you to name any five ruckman in the history of the game better than Grundy at the same age.

Simon Madden is one once he became a ruckman. Salmon is another I'd also rate ahead of Grundy at the same age, though he was more a forward. Possible Nic Naitanui.

In terms of ranking on this list. It really depends on your criteria and positionally what you look for.

I personally take a good big guy when that option is there, be it a key forward or ruckman.

In terms of bias towards my club. You may like to refer to my work on the Collingwood board which on the vast majority of Pies bar Grundy, Witts, Broomhead, Marsh, Fasolo and Seedsman is generally thought to be unfairly hard. Particularly on Adams, Greenwood, Varcoe, Kennedy, Blair, Sinclair, White, Macaffer, all of whom Collingwood fans continue to inform me I am entirely too hard on as players I continue to dismiss as worthwhile best 22 players.
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Why highlight that you are critical of a bunch of c / b grade players at best when trying to defend your position? All outside the Collingwood board rates these players as nothing more than just the numbers required to field a club - i'm sure that is well below your expectation as well.
 
Pat_Footy said:
Why highlight that you are critical of a bunch of c / b grade players at best when trying to defend your position? All outside the Collingwood board rates these players as nothing more than just the numbers required to field a club - i'm sure that is well below your expectation as well.
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My point is I rate a select few Pies higher than most because they are clearly better than is the consensus. And I dismiss the rest of the list after the best 7/8 as being much of a muchness at this point on present production.

Collingwood only have eight A or B grades combined at the present time (of which Pendlebury and Swan are the clubs only A graders, with Cloke not deserving of that title until he is again). With Grundy one of those certainly eight today on performance, Witts inside my best 10 on performance and Marsh someone I regard as best 22 today, along with Broomhead, Fasolo and Seedsman who continue by Pies fans and the general public to be underrated.

Then others who will generally be regarded as much more highly rated players I will regard as C-D grade players.
Young/Varcoe/Karnezis/Oxley/Greenwood/Freeman/Kennedy/Adams/Blair/Ramsay I view all as C-grade and from a best 22 context depth players. With White/Sinclair/Dwyer/Armstrong/Gault/Macaffer all to be D-graders.
 
Knightmare said:
My point is I rate a select few Pies higher than most because they are clearly better than is the consensus. And I dismiss the rest of the list after the best 7/8 as being much of a muchness at this point on present production.

Collingwood only have eight A or B grades combined at the present time (of which Pendlebury and Swan are the clubs only A graders, with Cloke not deserving of that title until he is again). With Grundy one of those certainly eight today on performance, Witts inside my best 10 on performance and Marsh someone I regard as best 22 today, along with Broomhead, Fasolo and Seedsman who continue by Pies fans and the general public to be underrated.

Then others who will generally be regarded as much more highly rated players I will regard as C-D grade players.
Young/Varcoe/Karnezis/Oxley/Greenwood/Freeman/Kennedy/Adams/Blair/Ramsay I view all as C-grade and from a best 22 context depth players. With White/Sinclair/Dwyer/Armstrong/Gault/Macaffer all to be D-graders.
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Sorry for going off topic but you've mentioned Fasolo a couple of times. I rate his skills and am liking his improved endeavour this year but wonder about your thoughts on his kicking? I rate him one of our best kicks, yet this year he seems down in this area - missing set shots that I expected him to be his bread and butter.
 
Lefthanded said:
Sorry for going off topic but you've mentioned Fasolo a couple of times. I rate his skills and am liking his improved endeavour this year but wonder about your thoughts on his kicking? I rate him one of our best kicks, yet this year he seems down in this area - missing set shots that I expected him to be his bread and butter.
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Fasolo's kicking his very good-excellent. His vision is better.

So those elements in addition to his marking and 1v1 ability are what make him a factor in the front half particularly.

Fasolo is a generally good (not great kick at goal - as say Elliott is). But when I really love the ball in his hands is around the 50m arc on the boundary looking inboard for targets. He is a genuine playmaker and when he is hitting his forward 50m targets and hitting them lace out. That's when he is playing his best footy.

Fasolo's kicking should improve over the coming weeks if it has been slightly down on previous outputs. But it hasn't been glaringly worse to my eyes, without consulting the numbers. Though playing deeper in the forward 50 and closer to goal generally will result in a much lower disposal efficiency.
 
tomsimpkin31 said:
Where would you have Bruce fitting into this Knightmare ?
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Not there yet.

Having a terrific season though obviously and beyond what anyone would have expected based on his previous play. So it will be interesting to see what he does in future seasons and whether he can work his way onto this list in time.
 
Knightmare said:
Not there yet.

Having a terrific season though obviously and beyond what anyone would have expected based on his previous play. So it will be interesting to see what he does in future seasons and whether he can work his way onto this list in time.
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What Bruce has going for him is he's a competitive beast being a tackling machine and he's extremely athletic. His motor rivals Nick Riewoldt which says a lot. Great pair of hands and one of the best contested marks based off this season. His weakness was his kicking however under the tutelage of Lindsay Gilbie he's rapidly improved.

At the same age as Tom Lynch (GCS) (you have #6) and only a year older than Jeremy Cameron (you have #1) he has plenty of time for improvement.

Interestingly he played junior footy as a key forward however GWS tried to make him a defender with Patton, Cameron, etc ahead of him.

The wider AFL has really taken notice of him this year....coincidently since being moved forward....musing if this notice would've began earlier if he was played in his natural position as a key forward is equally interesting.

At 197cm, ultra aggressive, a top athletic profile at his club, massive tank, great pair of hands, tackling machine and high footy IQ (leading patterns are off the chart considering he's been trained as a defender for the last three years) there's not many 23 and under key forwards or any positional player ahead of him IMO.

I'm not going to challenge your view on whether he's top 40 cos it's an objective opinion and a difficult task. Needless to say and with a touch of bias in mind I have Josh pretty high up!
 
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dewah07 said:
longer vs grundy vs wits will be interesting to track over the years
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When I first read your comment I refrained from making a joke about 3 way ruck battle. After seeing 4 rucks (Lobbe, Ryder, Witts, Grundy) trying to contest most ball ups around the ground on Thursday night I can only hope this does not become the norm.
 
If i was to redraft them my order would be:


1. Jeremy Cameron
2. Jaeger O'Meara
4. Jesse Hogan
5. Dylan Shiel
6. Marcus Bontempelli
7. Tom Lynch
8. Jon Patton
9. Harley Bennell
10. Dyson Heppell
11. Tom Liberatore
12. Chad Wingard
13. Adam Treloar
14. Elliot yeo
15. Jack Darling
16. Joe Daniher
17. Brodie Grundy
18. Ollie Wines
19 Brad Crouch
20. Luke Parker
21. Tom Nicholls
22. Andrew Gaff
23. Patrick Cripps
24. Jarrod Witts
25. David Swallow
26. Dion prestia
27. Tom Boyd
28. Jackson Macrae
29. Charlie Dixon
30. Jack Billings
31. Luke McDonald
32. Scott Lycett
33. Kade Kolodjashnij
34. Jamie Elliott
35. Isaac Smith
36. Jake Stringer
37. Dom Sheed
38. Brodie Smith
39. Brandon Ellis
40. Stephen Coniglio
 
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gym4life said:
If i was to redraft them my order would be:


1. Jeremy Cameron
2. Jaeger O'Meara
3.Jon Patton
4. Jesse Hogan
5. Dylan Shiel
6. Marcus Bontempelli
7. Tom Lynch
8. Tom Boyd
9. Harley Bennell
10. Dyson Heppell
11. Tom Liberatore
12. Chad Wingard
13. Adam Treloar
14. Jack Darling
15. Brodie Grundy
16. Ollie Wines
17 Brad Crouch
18. Luke Parker
19. Tom Nicholls
20. Andrew Gaff
21. Jarrod Witts
22. David Swallow
23. Dion prestia
24. Stephen Coniglio
25. Jackson Macrae
26. Charlie Dixon
27. Jack Billings
28. Luke McDonald
29. Scott Lycett
30. Kade Kolodjashnij
31. Jamie Elliott
32. Isaac Smith
33. Jake Stringer
34. Luke Dunstan
35. Brodie Smith
36. Brandon Ellis
37. Stephen Coniglio
38. Dom Sheed
39. Trent McKenzie
40. Jack Martin
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You would take 2 blokes ahead of Bont who have had severe knee injuries?.. Wow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
gym4life said:
If i was to redraft them my order would be:


1. Jeremy Cameron
2. Jaeger O'Meara
3.Jon Patton
4. Jesse Hogan
5. Dylan Shiel
6. Marcus Bontempelli
7. Tom Lynch
8. Tom Boyd
9. Harley Bennell
10. Dyson Heppell
11. Tom Liberatore
12. Chad Wingard
13. Adam Treloar
14. Jack Darling
15. Brodie Grundy
16. Ollie Wines
17 Brad Crouch
18. Luke Parker
19. Tom Nicholls
20. Andrew Gaff
21. Jarrod Witts
22. David Swallow
23. Dion prestia
24. Stephen Coniglio
25. Jackson Macrae
26. Charlie Dixon
27. Jack Billings
28. Luke McDonald
29. Scott Lycett
30. Kade Kolodjashnij
31. Jamie Elliott
32. Isaac Smith
33. Jake Stringer
34. Luke Dunstan
35. Brodie Smith
36. Brandon Ellis
37. Stephen Coniglio
38. Dom Sheed
39. Trent McKenzie
40. Jack Martin
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I'm assuming you missed Daniher.
How do you have Lycett at 29, Boyd at 8 and Daniher not even at 40?
 
gym4life said:
If i was to redraft them my order would be:


1. Jeremy Cameron
2. Jaeger O'Meara
3.Jon Patton
4. Jesse Hogan
5. Dylan Shiel
6. Marcus Bontempelli
7. Tom Lynch
8. Tom Boyd
9. Harley Bennell
10. Dyson Heppell
11. Tom Liberatore
12. Chad Wingard
13. Adam Treloar
14. Jack Darling
15. Brodie Grundy
16. Ollie Wines
17 Brad Crouch
18. Luke Parker
19. Tom Nicholls
20. Andrew Gaff
21. Jarrod Witts
22. David Swallow
23. Dion prestia
24. Stephen Coniglio
25. Jackson Macrae
26. Charlie Dixon
27. Jack Billings
28. Luke McDonald
29. Scott Lycett
30. Kade Kolodjashnij
31. Jamie Elliott
32. Isaac Smith
33. Jake Stringer
34. Luke Dunstan
35. Brodie Smith
36. Brandon Ellis
37. Stephen Coniglio
38. Dom Sheed
39. Trent McKenzie
40. Jack Martin
Click to expand...
swap hogan and patton
 

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Review Knightmare's 2010-2013 top 40

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