Environment LA Wildfires

[The Sultan]

Not sure how long it takes here, but was staggered to read that it can take 7 years to get approvals to conduct controlled burns in the US.

A recent analysis by my colleagues at the Property and Environment Research Center underscores just how cumbersome NEPA-related delays can be for the projects most needed to reduce fire risks. On average, it takes 3.6 years to begin a mechanical thinning project and 4.7 years to implement a prescribed burn after the U.S. Forest Service initiates the environmental review process. For large projects requiring environmental impact statements, the timeline stretches even longer, averaging 5.3 years for mechanical treatments and 7.2 years for prescribed burns.

L.A. Wildfires Should Be a Wake-up Call

Decades of fire suppression policies have left forests dangerously dense and overgrown.

www.city-journal.org

Same reason we had the black summer fires few years ago.. I grew up in East gippy and 30 odd years ago there was regular burning off during spring.
Greenies and NIMBYs made it harder and harder for it to be done.

 

[brutus76]

You can't take your stock into the parklands to eat the grass anymore LIKE YOU USED TO - animals ate the grass and kept it low and their poopies were good for the soil

Councils and shires no longer maintain all those dirt off the grid access roads in case of fire AS THEY USED TO - meaning firetrucks have limited access to fast spreading fire fronts

Not enough backburning and controlled burns done in the off season - resource and budget problem

Celeb California problem is wanting privacy and gated community but not being prepared for the risks by having multiple water storage tanks and a back up water supply on hand - ignorance on their behalf - most Aussie homes in the bush have a dam or man made dam or dams and water storage tanks on hand and a back up water supply just in case

 

[Chief]

You can't take your stock into the parklands to eat the grass anymore LIKE YOU USED TO - animals ate the grass and kept it low and their poopies were good for the soil

From my recollection, their hooves chop up the top soil. Some eat the grasses down to the soil, killing it entirely. Cattle isn't good for native Australian flora as far as I know.

 

[brutus76]

We used to take our sheep up there to graze for a few days every year back in the day
Problem was we'd have to rotate on guard duty for foxes and wild dogs

 

[Chief]

How exactly do you "treat" an arsonist?.

I'm not a mental health professional so I wouldn't.

 

[Gough]

Just to expand on this point, here is a music video from the band Evanescence who are also from Arkansas.


I haven't ever been to Arkansas but I did watch Ozark which was pretty entertaining.

Ronnie Hawkins and Levon Helm.

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

Heard on the LA radio that the LA fire department has the same number of resources that it had in 1960. Since the 1960's the population has almost doubled.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Then you've got the naive (some who seem very serious) asking why they aren't using that big blue thing beside California (the ocean) to put out the fires...

When it's been explained to them that the equipment isn't designed to work with salt water which would cause issues, they argue it'll at least be a start. Then others are trying to educate them on the dangers of "salting the earth", to which they reply "well, at least that's better than fire destroying everything"

In emergency situations concerns about soil degradation should be low priority.

There are aircraft that are able to use salt water to fight fires, for example, the Viking Canadair CL series. They are built with a lot of corrosion-resistant materials, mostly treated aluminium. For fires that are near the ocean they could have a 10 minute turn round of water drops with over 100 runs per day totalling 500,000 litres.

 

[Chief]

Then you've got the naive (some who seem very serious) asking why they aren't using that big blue thing beside California (the ocean) to put out the fires...

When it's been explained to them that the equipment isn't designed to work with salt water which would cause issues, they argue it'll at least be a start. Then others are trying to educate them on the dangers of "salting the earth", to which they reply "well, at least that's better than fire destroying everything"

However, they do use sea water at times.

That's not really the issue, though. The issue is that the wind speed was too high to fly anything in, at the same time as it was fanning the flames like a leaf blower on your camp fire.

Salt water on a sea-front property would not be a HUGE problem given that land and flora has developed to exist in that environment, including storm surges and the like flooding the land.

Dumping it inland on a national park would, I imagine, screw things up in that immediate area. Do you sacrifice a bit to save the rest, and worry about remediation later? I don't know the cost and effects so I couldn't say. Online information sources that developed online in the past 25+ years have often been poisoned by trash and grifters.

 

[Chief]

We used to take our sheep up there to graze for a few days every year back in the day
Problem was we'd have to rotate on guard duty for foxes and wild dogs

I have a memory of sheep being a big culprit in eating grasses to the soil where animals native to the area will not.

 

[cats_09]

However, they do use sea water at times.

That's not really the issue, though. The issue is that the wind speed was too high to fly anything in, at the same time as it was fanning the flames like a leaf blower on your camp fire.

Salt water on a sea-front property would not be a HUGE problem given that land and flora has developed to exist in that environment, including storm surges and the like flooding the land.

Dumping it inland on a national park would, I imagine, screw things up in that immediate area. Do you sacrifice a bit to save the rest, and worry about remediation later? I don't know the cost and effects so I couldn't say. Online information sources that developed online in the past 25+ years have often been poisoned by trash and grifters.

Using saltwater inland would likely have a long term impact compared with in coastal regions

But it does seem a number of those arguing for it to be used aren't exactly meaning for use with firefighting aircraft, but they somehow want it connected to the reserve water supplies or hydrants so that the ground crews have access to it

It's also why they want desalination plants operating in those areas to connect to water reserves - that makes a bit more sense, but then it's about the logistics of how that works

I've also seen some blaming "Greenies" for rivers that run into the ocean as that's a waste of fresh water which should be diverted elsewhere - ignoring that it's not necessarily intervention by man that directs the flow of rivers

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

I think it was the same with the 2009 Black Saturday fires in Victoria.

Incorrect. A failed power line caused that

 

[Chief]

But it does seem a number of those arguing for it to be used aren't exactly meaning for use with firefighting aircraft, but they somehow want it connected to the reserve water supplies or hydrants so that the ground crews have access to it

Oh OK. Yeah, nah.

Bucket on a helicopter? Sure.

 

[Chief]

I've also seen some blaming "Greenies" for rivers that run into the ocean as that's a waste of fresh water which should be diverted elsewhere - ignoring that it's not necessarily intervention by man that directs the flow of rivers

Next minute "the Dems have destroyed our fishing industries with their taxes and mismanagement and red tape" (ignores river mouth devastated by low water flow).

 

[errant bounce]

The most hilarious thing is all these gofundmes. some ex-tech developer or a rockstar's house burnt down and ordinary people are actually donating? saw some redundant ex smack head indie dweeb had lost his house and he's already got $100,000 in donations.

Absolutely nuts.

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

The most hilarious thing is all these gofundmes. some ex-tech developer or a rockstar's house burnt down and ordinary people are actually donating? saw some redundant ex smack head indie dweeb had lost his house and he's already got $100,000 in donations.

Absolutely nuts.

Do GoFundMe need proof of loss of property in the fires? Asking for a fiend.

 

[Cmarsh]

I'm not a mental health professional so I wouldn't.

Fair enough.

Can't say I've heard of propensity towards arson being a mental health condition.

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

Fair enough.

Can't say I've heard of propensity towards arson being a mental health condition.

Maybe inserting a rod of burning magnesium into their arson hole might make them think twice about setting shit on fire.

 

[Cmarsh]

Maybe inserting a rod of burning magnesium into their arson hole might make them think twice about setting shit on fire.

That would set shit on fire.

 

[Zevon]

Fair enough.

Can't say I've heard of propensity towards arson being a mental health condition.

Pyromania is a disorder listed in the DSM 5, so you have now.

 

[Chief]

Fair enough.

Can't say I've heard of propensity towards arson being a mental health condition.

Obsessive behaviour? Lack of ability to see consequences? Lack of empathy? Lack of connection with reality?

Could be wrong but I don't think it would be listed as "arsonist".

 

[Plugger35]

Reports of looting in the evacuated areas so even if your house hasn't burned down there is a chance it could get robbed instead.

Amid L.A. Evacuations, Fears of Looting Take Hold

Residents barred from returning to their neighborhoods face a secondary threat, and the city, with painful collective memories of looting, is on guard.

www.nytimes.com

Pyromania is a disorder listed in the DSM 5, so you have now.

Even if the arsonists starting these fires have a diagnosed disorder I don't think that is any excuse and they should still be punished with jail time, if you let them get away without any punishment it gives the green light for other people to start fires.

 

[Cmarsh]

Obsessive behaviour? Lack of ability to see consequences? Lack of empathy? Lack of connection with reality?

Could be wrong but I don't think it would be listed as "arsonist".

You sure it's a lack of ability to see consequenses?

 

[Zevon]

Reports of looting in the evacuated areas so even if your house hasn't burned down there is a chance it could get robbed instead.

Amid L.A. Evacuations, Fears of Looting Take Hold

Residents barred from returning to their neighborhoods face a secondary threat, and the city, with painful collective memories of looting, is on guard.

www.nytimes.com

Even if the arsonists starting these fires have a diagnosed disorder I don't think that is any excuse and they should still be punished with jail time, if you let them get away without any punishment it gives the green light for other people to start fires.

Never for a second suggested otherwise. Another poster stated that they hadn’t heard of propensity to commit arson being a psychological disorder; I was simply stating that it was (albeit with a different name).

Can guarantee there would be a bunch of criminal cases in front of the courts right now that can be traced back to a psychological disorder of some kind… drug/alchohol/gambling addiction, kleptomania, psychopathy, just to name a few. Of course we shouldn’t just make any of those mental health conditions a free ticket to committing any crime you want. So far as I can tell no poster here is suggesting that.

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

Reports of looting in the evacuated areas so even if your house hasn't burned down there is a chance it could get robbed instead.

Amid L.A. Evacuations, Fears of Looting Take Hold

Residents barred from returning to their neighborhoods face a secondary threat, and the city, with painful collective memories of looting, is on guard.

www.nytimes.com

Even if the arsonists starting these fires have a diagnosed disorder I don't think that is any excuse and they should still be punished with jail time, if you let them get away without any punishment it gives the green light for other people to start fires.

For sure. 16 deaths so any arson that caused those deaths should be treated as manslaughter.