AFLW Lack of female coaches in AFLW

[Jim Prideaux]

Interesting article in today's Guardian by Kate O'Halloran discussing a lack of woman coaching AFLW sides. With Bec Goddard having now left the Crows and Fremantle's Michelle Cowan also having parted ways, it leaves the AFL in strange spot - not one senior coach for an AFLW team being a woman.

The article itself addresses some of issues that have caused this to arise, with the main one being a lack of full time support - Bec Goddard had used up all of her leave with the AFP, she spoke with Adelaide about getting a full time role with Crows, but there wasn't a position available.

I think the AFL needs to do something about this immediately. The womens league will quickly look farcical if most of the major decisions (both on field and off field) are made almost exclusively by men.

Here is the article in question, what do others think?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...n-by-men-for-men-where-are-the-female-coaches

 

[Quivorir]

it leaves the AFL in strange spot - not one senior coach for an AFLW team being a woman.

Why is it a strange spot? Give the job to the best candidate. If all the best candidates happen to be male why is it an issue?

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Why is it a strange spot? Give the job to the best candidate. If all the best candidates happen to be male why is it an issue?

Missing the point entirely. Bec Goddard didn’t leave the crows because she was a bad candidate, she left because she needs to work a full time job on top of being a coach. She had used up all of her leave from said job. If there is no support pathway for aspiring female coaches then there won’t be any.

 

[Teen Wolf]

I too would ignore the likes of Debbie Lee and Nicole Livingstone if pushing the "AFLW is a women’s competition run by men" angle was my thing. Just looked up some AFLW team websites to find out about their staff. Brisbane: Breeanna Brock CEO, Jess Blechynden football analyst. Collingwood: Chloe McMillan assistant coach, Shannon McFerran development. Carlton: Tara Bonello football admin manager, Jessica Rottura assistant coach.

Maybe they're all being replaced by men next year, I actually don't know.

Fwiw, just my opinion, the four least-impressive head coaches over the first two seasons are no longer in those positions.

 

[Quivorir]

Missing the point entirely. Bec Goddard didn’t leave the crows because she was a bad candidate, she left because she needs to work a full time job on top of being a coach. She had used up all of her leave from said job. If there is no support pathway for aspiring female coaches then there won’t be any.

How is it missing the point? You specifically said:

The womens league will quickly look farcical if most of the major decisions (both on field and off field) are made almost exclusively by men.

And I said best candidates for the job gets it. Do you want a woman in a place of power simply because shes a woman?

 

[jatz14]

How is it missing the point? You specifically said:

And I said best candidates for the job gets it. Do you want a woman in a place of power simply because shes a woman?

Do you think women make inherently bad coaches? Because if all the coaches are male, and the best available, then either women are inherently poor coaches, or there is a structural issue stopping them becoming good.

If the structure of footy is preventing women getting the skills and experience necessary to compete with men, then the attitude, just take best available, then there is no problem, is an inadequate response.

Given one of the reasons to set up the AFLW was to provide a pathway for female coaching and support staff, the AFL tacitly acknowledged structural issues. So now filling up positions with men undermines this.

I have no problem with head coaches being men, they are best available, but most clubs have 2 or 3 assistant coaches, and the vast bulk of them are also men.

This is the issue. A women's league set up to advance women's football has most of the significant positions filled by men, and most of the secondary positions, that provide the next generation of head coaches, are also men.

This risks turning into the same boys club the men's is. Male coach, appoints mates and club stalwarts as assistants, who go on to be coaches, appointing mates and colleagues etc.

So, if the men are coaches because they are best available, how does a women become best available?

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[Jim Prideaux]

Do you think women make inherently bad coaches? Because if all the coaches are male, and the best available, then either women are inherently poor coaches, or there is a structural issue stopping them becoming good.

If the structure of footy is preventing women getting the skills and experience necessary to compete with men, then the attitude, just take best available, then there is no problem, is an inadequate response.

Given one of the reasons to set up the AFLW was to provide a pathway for female coaching and support staff, the AFL tacitly acknowledged structural issues. So now filling up positions with men undermines this.

I have no problem with head coaches being men, they are best available, but most clubs have 2 or 3 assistant coaches, and the vast bulk of them are also men.

This is the issue. A women's league set up to advance women's football has most of the significant positions filled by men, and most of the secondary positions, that provide the next generation of head coaches, are also men.

This risks turning into the same boys club the men's is. Male coach, appoints mates and club stalwarts as assistants, who go on to be coaches, appointing mates and colleagues etc.

So, if the men are coaches because they are best available, how does a women become best available?

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Well said. The article also touches on the other football jobs that are more available to male coaches but aren’t necessarily there for the female counterparts.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I too would ignore the likes of Debbie Lee and Nicole Livingstone if pushing the "AFLW is a women’s competition run by men" angle was my thing. Just looked up some AFLW team websites to find out about their staff. Brisbane: Breeanna Brock CEO, Jess Blechynden football analyst. Collingwood: Chloe McMillan assistant coach, Shannon McFerran development. Carlton: Tara Bonello football admin manager, Jessica Rottura assistant coach.

Maybe they're all being replaced by men next year, I actually don't know.

Fwiw, just my opinion, the four least-impressive head coaches over the first two seasons are no longer in those positions.

Livingstone came from outside the AFL, in terms of working her way up. Lee's the greatest female football player of all time, she's be involved in some way.

Now there's virtually no females, none at senior coaching level, very few assistants and operations managers, who have worked their way up the ranks through football, male or female, and made it to the AFLW.

Bulldogs before hiring Lee (who was from the Western Suburbs, was a Bulldogs fan and was working at the Dogs before she was poached by Melbourne a few years before the AFLW to head up their female football side), the Dogs didn't have a single woman whatsoever that was directly involved for the women's team. Chris Grant submitted the bid, and Paul Groves coached the first season with a team of assistants that were also all male. He worked with a AFLW operations manager who was also male. The operations manager crossed over from the schools/community program from the Dogs. Groves coached Vic Metro U/18 footy for one year, but was mainly a male footy coach going through the TAC system and local footy. Only one of the assistants came from a female footy background, with the others coming from men's local footy. As said above, if the whole point of the AFLW was to help female coaches, my team wasn't one of them that was doing a good job of it, all men and very few who were men from smaller female footy itself. Now, instead, we have two female coaches, both gone, and it's actually going backwards!

 

[Teen Wolf]

Looking at the current 18 men's head coaches, how many of them didn't play 100+ games at AFL level? Two, I think, and even still they both compiled considerable careers at state league level (then undertook llllloong apprenticeships, while being leapfrogged by favourite sons etc).

It will be interesting to see what happens in the near future when relatively high-profile AFLW footballers retire from playing. If we don't see a decent portion staying involved via coaching, that would indicate a meaningful disparity and then I'm gonna be concerned.

 

[jatz14]

There are some excellent coaching prospects in the playing ranks. First among them would be Alicia Eva, who if AFLW hadnt come along, might already have switched to coaching exclusively. Background in TAC cup and footy development, and has consciously been trying to build a coaching career platform for quite a while. Katherine Smith is someone doing something similar, but being so young will not be in the coaching picture for quite a few years. There are a few others. The issue is, they will be competing with a lot of male coaches, and ex male players, and if AFLW is considered `lesser,` it may still be difficult for them to get in, again, especially if the selection panels, and current head coaches are stacked with ex male players and coaches.

 

[Quivorir]

Do you think women make inherently bad coaches? Because if all the coaches are male, and the best available, then either women are inherently poor coaches, or there is a structural issue stopping them becoming good.

If the structure of footy is preventing women getting the skills and experience necessary to compete with men, then the attitude, just take best available, then there is no problem, is an inadequate response.

Given one of the reasons to set up the AFLW was to provide a pathway for female coaching and support staff, the AFL tacitly acknowledged structural issues. So now filling up positions with men undermines this.

I have no problem with head coaches being men, they are best available, but most clubs have 2 or 3 assistant coaches, and the vast bulk of them are also men.

This is the issue. A women's league set up to advance women's football has most of the significant positions filled by men, and most of the secondary positions, that provide the next generation of head coaches, are also men.

This risks turning into the same boys club the men's is. Male coach, appoints mates and club stalwarts as assistants, who go on to be coaches, appointing mates and colleagues etc.

So, if the men are coaches because they are best available, how does a women become best available?

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Very well said. I can't argue with or answer any of that.

 

[WolfgangV]

It will be interesting to see what happens in the near future when relatively high-profile AFLW footballers retire from playing. If we don't see a decent portion staying involved via coaching, that would indicate a meaningful disparity and then I'm gonna be concerned.

This is my hope, that as many of the current AFLW players start to retire they will start to fill the coaching ranks. And hopefully not just for women's teams. As jazt14 said, Alicia Eva is a coach in the making, and Lauren Arnell has impressed no end with her analysis in her radio work. Mel Hickey has taken up a coaching position at Darebin for this season (appointed prior to her ACL injury). And I'm sure there are many others who will have both the ability and ambition.

 

[telsor]

Do you think women make inherently bad coaches? Because if all the coaches are male, and the best available, then either women are inherently poor coaches, or there is a structural issue stopping them becoming good.

If the structure of footy is preventing women getting the skills and experience necessary to compete with men, then the attitude, just take best available, then there is no problem, is an inadequate response.

Given one of the reasons to set up the AFLW was to provide a pathway for female coaching and support staff, the AFL tacitly acknowledged structural issues. So now filling up positions with men undermines this.

I have no problem with head coaches being men, they are best available, but most clubs have 2 or 3 assistant coaches, and the vast bulk of them are also men.

This is the issue. A women's league set up to advance women's football has most of the significant positions filled by men, and most of the secondary positions, that provide the next generation of head coaches, are also men.

This risks turning into the same boys club the men's is. Male coach, appoints mates and club stalwarts as assistants, who go on to be coaches, appointing mates and colleagues etc.

So, if the men are coaches because they are best available, how does a women become best available?

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

Broadly agree, but the issue is that the pool of potential assistant coaches doesn't appear out of nowhere either...it comes from people who have played at the highest level....and the catch-22 is that as the women didn't have a 'highest level' to come from, they're already behind the 8 ball.

Sure, there are exceptions, and as seen with the current batch of assistants, some of those exceptions are women.

8 teams, lets say 24 assistants (3 each)...How many women do you think are, currently, in the best 24 available coaches?

Whatever the number is, it will grow...as the current batch of players retire, some will get jobs as AFLW coaches, some at lower levels, some in other positions...just as happens with the men.

It mightn't grow fast enough to satisfy some, but do you want the best quality coaches, or do you want work experience kids? It can be pushed along a bit, but only so much before you start sacrificing quality just to have the 'right representation' to suit the ideologically driven. Trouble is, that for the game as a whole to succeed, quality needs to be emphasized if it's to ever be more than tokenism.

 

[jatz14]

Broadly agree, but the issue is that the pool of potential assistant coaches doesn't appear out of nowhere either...it comes from people who have played at the highest level....and the catch-22 is that as the women didn't have a 'highest level' to come from, they're already behind the 8 ball.

Sure, there are exceptions, and as seen with the current batch of assistants, some of those exceptions are women.

8 teams, lets say 24 assistants (3 each)...How many women do you think are, currently, in the best 24 available coaches?

Whatever the number is, it will grow...as the current batch of players retire, some will get jobs as AFLW coaches, some at lower levels, some in other positions...just as happens with the men.

It mightn't grow fast enough to satisfy some, but do you want the best quality coaches, or do you want work experience kids? It can be pushed along a bit, but only so much before you start sacrificing quality just to have the 'right representation' to suit the ideologically driven. Trouble is, that for the game as a whole to succeed, quality needs to be emphasized if it's to ever be more than tokenism.

There is an assumption here that is at the root of the issue. Is it the case that the best coaches come from the ranks of past players? In the US, the coach that has always been a professional coach, and was never a player of any significance is quite common. There is not quite the opportunity in Australia to build a coaching resume outside the AFL that there is in the US, but the notion that you cannot coach it if you didn't play it is in my opinion false.

The concern is, if a culture of looking to AFL playing and coaching ranks for your AFLW coaches is established now, it might be difficult to break later. Having `played AFLW` on your resume might still not be enough to get you in the door.

I saw a GIF (which I would post if I could find it). Shows a man a woman and a child trying to watch a football game, but a wooden fence is in the way. Man can see over it, the others cannot (a market type situation, if you can see, you can see, if not, tough luck). Second panel showed `equality`. All 3 had a box to stand on of equal size, despite the fact the man didn't need one, and the box was to short for the child to see. Third panel showed `equity`, the man didn't get a box, the woman had the small box, and the child had a big box, and all 3 could see.
Attempts to fix inequity usually ed up with the people that do not need a box getting one, because they scream how unfair it is if other get one, and they do not.

Despite the fact people will scream that its unfair, female coaches need a box to stand on. I am not sure simply waiting to we have some ex AFLW players to enter the coaching pool will cut it.

 

[telsor]

There is an assumption here that is at the root of the issue. Is it the case that the best coaches come from the ranks of past players? In the US, the coach that has always been a professional coach, and was never a player of any significance is quite common. There is not quite the opportunity in Australia to build a coaching resume outside the AFL that there is in the US, but the notion that you cannot coach it if you didn't play it is in my opinion false.

The concern is, if a culture of looking to AFL playing and coaching ranks for your AFLW coaches is established now, it might be difficult to break later. Having `played AFLW` on your resume might still not be enough to get you in the door.

I saw a GIF (which I would post if I could find it). Shows a man a woman and a child trying to watch a football game, but a wooden fence is in the way. Man can see over it, the others cannot (a market type situation, if you can see, you can see, if not, tough luck). Second panel showed `equality`. All 3 had a box to stand on of equal size, despite the fact the man didn't need one, and the box was to short for the child to see. Third panel showed `equity`, the man didn't get a box, the woman had the small box, and the child had a big box, and all 3 could see.
Attempts to fix inequity usually ed up with the people that do not need a box getting one, because they scream how unfair it is if other get one, and they do not.

Despite the fact people will scream that its unfair, female coaches need a box to stand on. I am not sure simply waiting to we have some ex AFLW players to enter the coaching pool will cut it.

Whichever pathway to coaching you're looking at, to reach the top takes time.

US coaches start as high school coaches, get jobs as college assistants, then get the main job there before moving up to the big leagues. Some might skip a level here or there (especially if they have experience playing at a decent level), but I doubt you'll find many who haven't been at it for 20+ years before they get to the top.

Those pathways simply haven't been there for women, and while they can be pushed along the path a bit, skipping too many levels will affect the quality of the product, and I think most would agree that the ultimate goal is to produce high quality sport and all that goes with that (you know, fans, money...) not a job creation program for females.

 

[KeilorUnder9s]

It shouldn’t matter what sex the coach is whatsoever. What’s important is to ensure that all the aflw players are “female”. So far the AFL are doing this.

I’m not buying the “I have to work full time” whine. That’s the case for all non-professional sports. Until aflw is making money that’s how it will remain. (In my opinion it will never make enough money to enable full time jobs).

 

[CrowdedHouse]

There's a lot of thought/comments that there are not enough female coaches who are qualified/can step up to be a head coach in the AFLW. That opinion is misinformed.

For example, last year the WAWFL (Nicole Graves - Swan Districts), Adelaide Footy League Women's (Krissie Steen - Adelaide Uni), AFL Sydney Women's Premier Division (Tracey Kick - UNSW/ES) and VFLW (Jane Lange - Darebin Falcons) premiers were all coached by women.

Naturally, there'd be the protest "oh, but state league sides are inferior to national league sides, etc". In the men's context, this is true; but on the women's football context, this is false.

Just prior to the 2017 AFLW season, and then last winter, 90% of the AFLW players played in the state leagues. Clubs like Darebin (VFLW), Diamond Creek (VFLW) and Melbourne Uni (VFLW) were chock-a-block full of AFLW players. So when these sides crossed paths (and battles like Coastal Titans v Swan Districts in WA) these games were equal to, and in some cases higher in standard, to AFLW matches. In fact, in casual conversation, a number of people have told me that a fully fit Darebin side from 2 or 3 years ago would beat any AFLW team - they were just so stacked with talent.

Beyond winning flags, in 2018 Tracey Kick became an assistant coach at the GWS Giants, and Jane Lange became an assistant coach at Melbourne (leaving Carlton to take the role).

Nicole Graves help set up the first female development program in Victoria, and was the first female to earn an AFL Level 3 coaching accreditation. She is also head coach for the Aussie Sparks touring side.

Krissie Steen was an assistant coach of the Western Bulldogs during the AFL Women's exhibition matches, and just last week lead South Adelaide to the SANFL Women's flag (her second flag in 6 months!).

Added to that is Chyloe Kurdas who took over from Nicole Graves in Victoria in the female footy development space. Her conversations with Alan McConnell at the Giants saw GWS recruit a number of handy Victorian footballers.

Then there's Peta Searle. Of course we all know the story that she coached Darebin to 5 flags in a row, was an assistant at the Western Jets, then became an assistant coach at Port Melbourne for 2 years before getting her current gig at St Kilda. Although she coached the Bulldogs in the first exhibition game, I picked up a vibe then that she didn't want get pigeonholed as only being a potential women's footy head coach.

Another name that comes to mind is former SA women's state coach Narelle Smith. 'Relle now involved in a coaching role with the Glenelg SANFL men's team - she coached multiple flags at Morphettville Park.

 

[jatz14]

There's a lot of thought/comments that there are not enough female coaches who are qualified/can step up to be a head coach in the AFLW. That opinion is misinformed.

For example, last year the WAWFL (Nicole Graves - Swan Districts), Adelaide Footy League Women's (Krissie Steen - Adelaide Uni), AFL Sydney Women's Premier Division (Tracey Kick - UNSW/ES) and VFLW (Jane Lange - Darebin Falcons) premiers were all coached by women.

Naturally, there'd be the protest "oh, but state league sides are inferior to national league sides, etc". In the men's context, this is true; but on the women's football context, this is false.

Just prior to the 2017 AFLW season, and then last winter, 90% of the AFLW players played in the state leagues. Clubs like Darebin (VFLW), Diamond Creek (VFLW) and Melbourne Uni (VFLW) were chock-a-block full of AFLW players. So when these sides crossed paths (and battles like Coastal Titans v Swan Districts in WA) these games were equal to, and in some cases higher in standard, to AFLW matches. In fact, in casual conversation, a number of people have told me that a fully fit Darebin side from 2 or 3 years ago would beat any AFLW team - they were just so stacked with talent.

Beyond winning flags, in 2018 Tracey Kick became an assistant coach at the GWS Giants, and Jane Lange became an assistant coach at Melbourne (leaving Carlton to take the role).

Nicole Graves help set up the first female development program in Victoria, and was the first female to earn an AFL Level 3 coaching accreditation. She is also head coach for the Aussie Sparks touring side.

Krissie Steen was an assistant coach of the Western Bulldogs during the AFL Women's exhibition matches, and just last week lead South Adelaide to the SANFL Women's flag (her second flag in 6 months!).

Added to that is Chyloe Kurdas who took over from Nicole Graves in Victoria in the female footy development space. Her conversations with Alan McConnell at the Giants saw GWS recruit a number of handy Victorian footballers.

Then there's Peta Searle. Of course we all know the story that she coached Darebin to 5 flags in a row, was an assistant at the Western Jets, then became an assistant coach at Port Melbourne for 2 years before getting her current gig at St Kilda. Although she coached the Bulldogs in the first exhibition game, I picked up a vibe then that she didn't want get pigeonholed as only being a potential women's footy head coach.

Another name that comes to mind is former SA women's state coach Narelle Smith. 'Relle now involved in a coaching role with the Glenelg SANFL men's team - she coached multiple flags at Morphettville Park.

Your post is only true if AFL clubs see it that way, and the evidence is they do not. While Darebin was stacked with talent, they were playing in an amateur suburban league.

 

[Dan]

It's never enough.....always something to whale about.

 

[jatz14]

It's never enough.....always something to whale about.

Whats not enough?

 

[HTT]

Coaches are usually ex players, and I think naturally there’s not many female ex players. It’s another thing that will in all likelihood change 10-15 years down the track. At that point we might see a female senior coach in the AFL, I can’t see any reason why a woman can’t be as good tactically as an AFL coach.

 

[DJMac]

It would be interesting to know how many current AFLW players are enrolled in some sort of coaching courses.

Many of the men that are working in coaching roles in the AFL and state leagues were developing their coaching skills well before they retired. This helped them to transition into a role once they retired.

 

[Eaglemaniac]

Your post is only true if AFL clubs see it that way, and the evidence is they do not. While Darebin was stacked with talent, they were playing in an amateur suburban league.

There's a bit of that talk in WA as well, that certain teams get all the talent because players are told if they want to play AFLW they need to go to certain teams to get drafted. That makes it hard to judge whether side winning regularly is down to good coaching or just better players.

 

[jatz14]

There's a bit of that talk in WA as well, that certain teams get all the talent because players are told if they want to play AFLW they need to go to certain teams to get drafted. That makes it hard to judge whether side winning regularly is down to good coaching or just better players.

The perennial powerhouses of WAWFL, without most of their AFLW players, are 5th and 6th currently. Shows that the mid tier Coastal and Swans players, are no better than the best from other teams. Mid tier Coastal players were much more likely to be drafted than the best from other teams though. So I do think it is not coaching, but self reinforcing dominance. Good players choose good teams to go to, who get better. Its like mens amateurs, success doesn't have all that much to do with coaching TBH, in fact, none in my opinion. Having a gun player rock up has much more of an affect than anything the coach can achieve with a bunch of blokes in a few hours a week.

I suspect it is similar in womens.

 

[Eaglemaniac]

The perennial powerhouses of WAWFL, without most of their AFLW players, are 5th and 6th currently. Shows that the mid tier Coastal and Swans players, are no better than the best from other teams. Mid tier Coastal players were much more likely to be drafted than the best from other teams though. So I do think it is not coaching, but self reinforcing dominance. Good players choose good teams to go to, who get better. Its like mens amateurs, success doesn't have all that much to do with coaching TBH, in fact, none in my opinion. Having a gun player rock up has much more of an affect than anything the coach can achieve with a bunch of blokes in a few hours a week.

I suspect it is similar in womens.

Yeah i agree, i'm just thinking if they want a fair and professional comp before they go to the official WAFL womens next year, they should be evening up the amount of AFLW players plating at the various clubs, and they'd need to set zones for recruiting so that people cant just go where they want. The rumour is though, that the AFLW players playing at current clubs are threatening not to play if they dont get to play at their current club. I dont know how much susbtance there is to the rumour though, its just what ive heard.