Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!!!

[Leo.J]

For GT to be 'the most underrated coach' he would have to have either:

1. Been written off but won a premiership anyway... no thats Paul Roos

OR

2. Been expected to come last or near it but won the minor premiership instead... no thats Neil Craig

Instead, GT has the MOST gifted team in the comp, been afforded the HIGHEST expectations, and yet delivered.... nothing.

He is not underrated, at best he is rated as the hack coach he really is.

Sydney - Paul Roos: players used 32
Adelaide - Neil Craig: players used 31
West Coast - John Worsfold: players used 36
St.Kilda - GT: players used 36
Collingwood - Mick Malthouse: players used: 39
Essendon - Kevin Sheedy: players used: 40

Its hard to display the amount of key player out also, but anyway, the Crows and the Swans were 1st and 2nd in least players used. Collingwood and Essendon were the 2 worst hit with this stat.

So would'nt you think that a coach who has an almost full list most weeks to choose from has an easier job than a coach who has to juggle his side with upto six key players out at anyone time and still be expected to come up with the win (or the flag).

Sydney had injuries but luckily for them they were early on, because when they had the same amount of injuries as Essendon and Collingwood they played like them.

Despite Adelaide having the least players used, their injuries came at the wrong time for them, during the finals, the same can be said for WC.

So as far as underated coaching goes you could probably name the last 4 guys on the list above, as for an overated coaching performance....well I'll leave that upto everyone else to decide.

The supposed best list in the comp means Jack sh*t if 1/3 of them regularly can't play...is that logical enough for you?

 

[Vader]

Re: Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!

Sydney - Paul Roos: players used 32
Adelaide - Neil Craig: players used 31
West Coast - John Worsfold: players used 36
St.Kilda - GT: players used 36
Collingwood - Mick Malthouse: players used: 39
Essendon - Kevin Sheedy: players used: 40

Its hard to display the amount of key player out also, but anyway, the Crows and the Swans were 1st and 2nd in least players used. Collingwood and Essendon were the 2 worst hit with this stat.

So would'nt you think that a coach who has an almost full list most weeks to choose from has an easier job than a coach who has to juggle his side with upto six key players out at anyone time and still be expected to come up with the win (or the flag).

Sydney had injuries but luckily for them they were early on, because when they had the same amount of injuries as Essendon and Collingwood they played like them.

Despite Adelaide having the least players used, their injuries came at the wrong time for them, during the finals, the same can be said for WC.

So as far as underated coaching goes you could probably name the last 4 guys on the list above, as for an overated coaching performance....well I'll leave that upto everyone else to decide.

The supposed best list in the comp means Jack sh*t if 1/3 of them regularly can't play...is that logical enough for you?

You can make a lot out of how many players a team used - some of it is valid, some of it rubbish.

Firstly, it is true that teams that use less players are more stable, and thus more likely to "gel" as a team and be successful. An example of this is Sydney & Adelaide.

On the other hand, there are many possible reasons why younger players could get a game.

The first (and most obvious) reason is injury. There's no doubt that injuries to senior players disrupt a side. Any coach who says that it just provides an opportunity for a kid to step up is blowing hot air.

However, once the season is gone, and finals are no longer a prospect, a lot of teams will play their kids in order to see if they have what it takes. This goes a long way towards explaining why Essendon used so many players. In a contrary manner, it also explains the high number of players used by the WCE - they were so far ahead of the competition that they could afford to experiment late in the season.

There are many dangers in trying to compare one coaches performance against another based purely on the number of players they used throughout a season.

 

[Leo.J]

The players in red are the players who missed upto 5 games for the year. The players in bold are the key players to have missed more than 5 games for the year.

St Kilda
7.Lenny Hayes 24
26.Nick Dal Santo 24
14.Luke Ball 24
44.Stephen Milne 24
10.Steven Baker 24
13.Brett Voss 24
5.Austinn Jones 22
4.Andrew Thompson22
9.Fraser Gehrig 22
28.Cain Ackland 22
25.Samuel Fisher 21
31.Matthew Maguire 21
1.Justin Peckett 20
8.Max Hudghton 20
18.Brendon Goddard 19
35.Robert Harvey 17
17.Stephen Powell 16
12.Nick Riewoldt 16
16.Raphael Clarke 16
27.Jason Blake 15
23.Justin Koschitzke 13
22.Aaron Fiora 13
34.Brent Guerra 13
2.Aaron Hamill 12
3.Xavier Clarke 9
11.Leigh Montagna 8
30.Mark McGough 9
32.Andrew McQualter 7
40.Troy Schwarze 7
19.Luke Penny 9
15.Jason Gram 5
33.James Gwilt 3
21.Matthew Ferguson 2
20.Allan Murray 2
24.Barry Brooks 2
29.Nick Stone 1

Sydney
31.Brett Kirk 26
37.Adam Goodes 26
32.Amon Buchanan 26
17.Tadhg Kennelly 26
1.Barry Hall 26
5.Ryan OKeefe 26
6.Craig Bolton 26
21.Leo Barry 26
28.Jared Crouch 26
4.Ben Mathews 25
20.Luke Ablett 25
30.Lewis Roberts-Thomson 25
16.Darren Jolly 24
24.Jude Bolton 24
2.Nick Davis 23
19.Michael OLoughlin 23
26.Sean Dempster 22
27.Jason Ball 21
10.Paul Williams 19
13.Adam Schneider 16
42.Paul Bevan 15
3.Jarrad McVeigh 13
38.Luke Vogels 11
12.Nic Fosdike 11
23.Matthew Nicks 9
22.Jason Saddington 7
8.David Spriggs 5
11.Stuart Maxfield 5
40.Nick Malceski 5
25.Andrew Schauble 4
33.Jarred Moore 5
15.Stephen Doyle 1

Which teams coach do you think had the easier job this year?

 

[Doofy]

I'm not sure I know how to respond to this??

Of course it reeked of desperation you simpleton. Half the side and almost the entire backline was missing.

That is the whole point you ball tickling imbecile. Fair dinkum.

I would expect nothing less, from a St Kilda Supporter.

Do not let them image die.

 

[Doofy]

The players in red are the players who missed upto 5 games for the year. The players in bold are the key players to have missed more than 5 games for the year.

St Kilda
7.Lenny Hayes 24
26.Nick Dal Santo 24
14.Luke Ball 24
44.Stephen Milne 24
10.Steven Baker 24
13.Brett Voss 24
5.Austinn Jones 22
4.Andrew Thompson22
9.Fraser Gehrig 22
28.Cain Ackland 22
25.Samuel Fisher 21
31.Matthew Maguire 21
1.Justin Peckett 20
8.Max Hudghton 20
18.Brendon Goddard 19
35.Robert Harvey 17
17.Stephen Powell 16
12.Nick Riewoldt 16
16.Raphael Clarke 16
27.Jason Blake 15
23.Justin Koschitzke 13
22.Aaron Fiora 13
34.Brent Guerra 13
2.Aaron Hamill 12
3.Xavier Clarke 9
11.Leigh Montagna 8
30.Mark McGough 9
32.Andrew McQualter 7
40.Troy Schwarze 7
19.Luke Penny 9
15.Jason Gram 5
33.James Gwilt 3
21.Matthew Ferguson 2
20.Allan Murray 2
24.Barry Brooks 2
29.Nick Stone 1

Sydney
31.Brett Kirk 26
37.Adam Goodes 26
32.Amon Buchanan 26
17.Tadhg Kennelly 26
1.Barry Hall 26
5.Ryan OKeefe 26
6.Craig Bolton 26
21.Leo Barry 26
28.Jared Crouch 26
4.Ben Mathews 25
20.Luke Ablett 25
30.Lewis Roberts-Thomson 25
16.Darren Jolly 24
24.Jude Bolton 24
2.Nick Davis 23
19.Michael OLoughlin 23
26.Sean Dempster 22
27.Jason Ball 21
10.Paul Williams 19
13.Adam Schneider 16
42.Paul Bevan 15
3.Jarrad McVeigh 13
38.Luke Vogels 11
12.Nic Fosdike 11
23.Matthew Nicks 9
22.Jason Saddington 7
8.David Spriggs 5
11.Stuart Maxfield 5
40.Nick Malceski 5
25.Andrew Schauble 4
33.Jarred Moore 5
15.Stephen Doyle 1

Which teams coach do you think had the easier job this year?

Which team has the better player management managers?

 

[Annabelle]

I can't get over how bitter some Saints supporters are and how they just cannot get over what happened. Swans supporters have never disputed that the Saints have a better list with more talented players and that Sydney had a good year injury management wise. But all the excuses and denigrating of the Swans to make you feel better doesn't change anything - we won the flag! And with the best list you didn't and may never do it. Put the Swan' win down to luck or whatever, write us off for next year, compain about the extra salary cap(which we didn't use) or do anything necessary to feel better . History can't be changed - 2005 Premiers - Sydney. And finally let me tell you whingeing Saints supporters something - it feels great.

 

[Doofy]

I can't get over how bitter some Saints supporters are and how they just cannot get over what happened. Swans supporters have never disputed that the Saints have a better list with more talented players and that Sydney had a good year injury management wise. But all the excuses and denigrating of the Swans to make you feel better doesn't change anything - we won the flag! And with the best list you didn't and may never do it. Put the Swan' win down to luck or whatever, write us off for next year, compain about the extra salary cap(which we didn't use) or do anything necessary to feel better . History can't be changed - 2005 Premiers - Sydney. And finally let me tell you whingeing Saints supporters something - it feels great.

You left off that St Kilda were Prelim Finalists, two years running, when they wer expected to go all the way.

 

[Leo.J]

I can't get over how bitter some Saints supporters are and how they just cannot get over what happened. Swans supporters have never disputed that the Saints have a better list with more talented players and that Sydney had a good year injury management wise. But all the excuses and denigrating of the Swans to make you feel better doesn't change anything - we won the flag! And with the best list you didn't and may never do it. Put the Swan' win down to luck or whatever, write us off for next year, compain about the extra salary cap(which we didn't use) or do anything necessary to feel better . History can't be changed - 2005 Premiers - Sydney. And finally let me tell you whingeing Saints supporters something - it feels great.

I'm sure it does, I can imagine it feels like winning a game of pool when your opponent goes in off the black, satifying but somewhat hollow. Robert Harvey would know how you feel.

 

[Doofy]

I'm sure it does, I can imagine it feels like winning a game of pool when your opponent goes in off the black, satifying but somewhat hollow. Robert Harvey would know how you feel.

Hollow??

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

You left off that St Kilda were Prelim Finalists, two years running, when they wer expected to go all the way.

Who expected us to go all the way?

 

[Leo.J]

You left off that St Kilda were Prelim Finalists, two years running, when they wer expected to go all the way.

This comment just confirms to me that you've just jumped on the bandwagon.

If you can remember back, the Saints were tipped to just sneak into the 8 by most of Melbourne's footy media, I think Geoff Poulter was the only one to have them top 4 at 3rd. It wasn't until about round 8 or 9 that some people started saying that we might win it, and in each final we played in last year we were the underdogs. So would you say that we played above expectations then last year. In most cases when this happens the coach is given some credit, but not GT.

We were preseason favourites this year, but I'm sure that most people would not of taken such short odd if they had of foreseen the injuries that were ahead. If you had of said that Kosi and Hamill were going to miss half the year and most of or all of the finals, and that Harves and Roo would miss 7 and 8 games respectively, and your FB would only manage 9 games for the season. And that during the business end of the finals you would have 3-4 key players out and another 3-4 key players who you had to play were at 70-80% fit. And we are only talking about recognised key players, there were others that would get a game at most clubs. I think most sensible people would tell you to stick your odds. But after all that apparently GT should have been able to coach his way to a flag.

We don't even need to do a comparison with the Swans and how they would have gone if they had the equivalent players out. Lets just take Barry Hall out of the GF like he should of been (thanks Andy) and we wouldn't be having this discussion because there would be no bandwagon for you to ride.

By the way I may sound bitter but I'm not, I'm just a little lost. I generally thought the best team won the flag, Adelaide or WC would have been fitting premiers, but it makes me shudder to think that Lewis Roberts-Thompson has a premiership medal, along with some others. It sort of degrades the honour of winning a premiership medal and the flag.

 

[Joffaboy]

Who expected us to go all the way?

Apparently Doofy the Sydney n00b.

Dont expect sense from this n00b. Only discovered Sydney this year. He will work out what game they play in a year or two.

Dont argue with idiots LB, they will only drag you down to their level, or are you Foxing?

 

[Leo.J]

You left off that St Kilda were Prelim Finalists, two years running, when they wer expected to go all the way.

I also think that we were probably only out right favourites during this season for about 8 weeks all told, for the first few weeks we were, then I don't think we got back there until about round 18 or 19, this lasted until round 21 against Freo.

 

[Bloods Rule!]

I'm sure it does, I can imagine it feels like winning a game of pool when your opponent goes in off the black, satifying but somewhat hollow. Robert Harvey would know how you feel.

I bet that's what the Lions were thinking in the 2003 PF when they did to the Swans in the last quarter what the Swans did to the Saints in 2005. Michael Voss would have been thinking "this feels so hollow considering the Swans' injuries".

Until Grant Thomas can get his talented team to last a whole season he's not much of a coach at all.

 

[Leo.J]

I bet that's what the Lions were thinking in the 2003 PF when they did to the Swans in the last quarter what the Swans did to the Saints in 2005. Michael Voss would have been thinking "this feels so hollow considering the Swans' injuries".

Until Grant Thomas can get his talented team to last a whole season he's not much of a coach at all.

You're not excused from being a moron just because the team you support won the flag.

GT personally can't do too much about injuries once the season is underway, I didn't realise senior coaches had to be faith healers also.

In that case are you saying that Sydney's good run with injuries was Paul Roos' doings?

 

[LittleSchneider]

I'm not sure I know how to respond to this??

Of course it reeked of desperation you simpleton. Half the side and almost the entire backline was missing.

That is the whole point you ball tickling imbecile. Fair dinkum.

You know LB - You can always tell when someone is scraping the bottom of the barrel to make an argument when they start insulting someone because either:
a) the person was right or
b) you have nothing to say that would even resemble some sort of intelligence so you just shoot your mouth off.

Funny really.

As for GT being underrated? Have you not heard public opinion recently? He, and your medical team, should take a long hard look in the mirror in regards to injury management.

 

[Vader]

Re: Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!

There's not a lot you can do when it comes to contact injuries - eg Nathan Brown's broken leg.

However, when it comes to soft tissue injuries - the type of which plagued St Kilda in 2005, there is a lot you can do to prevent them. They may not be 100% preventable, but you can do a lot to minimise the risk.

Adelaide virtually eliminated soft-tissue injuries this year. This was done by tailoring training to the needs of the individuals to ensure that they maintain peak fitness without overdoing it (resulting in the injuries). No doubt Craig's background as a Sports Scientist had a lot to do with the individualised training regimes, and the subsequent reduction in injuries.

Given that he sacked the lot of them as soon as the season ended (and replaced them with Craig Starcevich), it is clear that Thomas laid the blame clearly at the feet of the "Training Services" section. Ultimately, though, the blame lies with the coach - he's the person who employed these people, and he's the one they answer to.

 

[Bloods Rule!]

You're not excused from being a moron just because the team you support won the flag.

GT personally can't do too much about injuries once the season is underway, I didn't realise senior coaches had to be faith healers also.

In that case are you saying that Sydney's good run with injuries was Paul Roos' doings?

After that 2003 game I asked Barry Hall what happened in that final quarter? He replied "they lifted and we couldn't go with them". The Swans learned from that experience but as the Saints have now done lost consecutive PFs - that suggests Thomas and the team haven't learned much at all.

As Vader said, there is a lot that can be done to avoid injuries. And yes, Paul Roos has managed that part of coaching very well and GT has managed that very badly. It's not just training regimens either - the Swans showed through a very hard finals series that they are not just the fittest team in the comp, their injuries are well contained. If you closely watch the Swans late in the season you'll see vital players were taken off the field when they were no longer required to win. And at the games I clearly saw how a couple of players were frustrated by specific orders NOT to put their heads over the ball - Barry Hall and Nick Davis were the two I noticed. So yes, I'm saying the team that fronts up to every game is the coach's responsibility. This year, Paul Roos largely got it right and GT often got it wrong.

And that's not to denigrate the heroism of the Swans that played the Grand Final injured. But deciding the ramifications of who does and doesn't play rests purely on the shoulders of the coach. Personally, I think the decision not to play Matera in the GF cost the Eagles the Premiership. He doesn't often do much anytime the Eagles play the Swans but he is too dangerous to ignore. So we would have had to put Crouch on him. And that would have taken away the luxury of Crouch playing on Judd after he gave Ablett a towelling.

You may think it's moronic to think that Paul Roos played a large part in Sydney winning the flag this year. I think it's fair to expect that the Saints won't win a flag while GT is coach, unless he shows more signs of learning from experience.

 

[ripitup27]

Re: Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!

This thing started with Thomas as being the most underrated coach. Pfft. Mark Thompson was down to 24 fit players at times throughout the season, with his best players in Johnson, Ottens, King, Chapman, Harley, Wojcinski, Enright and Playfair out for much of it. Still, he managed to get the Cats within 3 points of the eventual premiers in the semi-final at the SCG. Tell me who is underrated. I have to say the Saints are a great side and deserve praise but please, Thomas the most underrated? It's a highly dubious comment.

 

[Winterstick]

Re: Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!

And again, I rest my case.

how many times can you rest your case ?
once
so please shut up you deek hed

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Re: Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!

This thing started with Thomas as being the most underrated coach. Pfft. Mark Thompson was down to 24 fit players at times throughout the season, with his best players in Johnson, Ottens, King, Chapman, Harley, Wojcinski, Enright and Playfair out for much of it. Still, he managed to get the Cats within 3 points of the eventual premiers in the semi-final at the SCG. Tell me who is underrated. I have to say the Saints are a great side and deserve praise but please, Thomas the most underrated? It's a highly dubious comment.

Nonsense.

When these players missed - Geelong were pathetic. Their results mimicked their injury list, when the injury toll eased they played better footy. This is no disgrace as it is usually what happens in AFL football.

St.Kilda of 2005 is the exception. Hence my amazement at the lack of acknowledgement Grant Thomas receives for his efforts in 2005.

We finished 3rd and won an away final with a chronic injury list - far worse than Geelong's (or any other club's) - for an entire season.

And to claim this 'within 3 points of the eventual premier' stuff is complete garbage. We beat Sydney by nearly 10 goals when we had what almost resembled a non-horrific injury list. To take merit from that sort of thing is a bit pathetic.

To use it as fuel for the argument that Sydney are the Steven Bradbury of the AFL however, is certianly valid.

 

[Bloods Rule!]

Re: Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!

Nonsense.

When these players missed - Geelong were pathetic. Their results mimicked their injury list, when the injury toll eased they played better footy. This is no disgrace as it is usually what happens in AFL football.

St.Kilda of 2005 is the exception. Hence my amazement at the lack of acknowledgement Grant Thomas receives for his efforts in 2005.

We finished 3rd and won an away final with a chronic injury list - far worse than Geelong's (or any other club's) - for an entire season.

And to claim this 'within 3 points of the eventual premier' stuff is complete garbage. We beat Sydney by nearly 10 goals when we had what almost resembled a non-horrific injury list. To take merit from that sort of thing is a bit pathetic.

To use it as fuel for the argument that Sydney are the Steven Bradbury of the AFL however, is certianly valid.

After playing both teams in the finals, I reckon the Swans will be more nervous facing the Cats next year than facing the Saints. That's because the Cats played with heart until the final siren. The Saints simply gave up - and that was against a team that should have been exhausted.

That can only partially be blamed on Thomas' remarkable record of breaking his players.

The Swans owe the Saints a debt of gratitude for that R10 Dome thrashing. Every team has down games and that was certainly ours for 2005. It was a great wake-up call and the bounce back led to our Premiership. Thinking it indicates what will happen in R11 2006 when the Premiers play the Saints at the SCG is delusional.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Re: Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!

After playing both teams in the finals, I reckon the Swans will be more nervous facing the Cats next year than facing the Saints. That's because the Cats played with heart until the final siren. The Saints simply gave up - and that was against a team that should have been exhausted.

That can only partially be blamed on Thomas' remarkable record of breaking his players.

The Swans owe the Saints a debt of gratitude for that R10 Dome thrashing. Every team has down games and that was certainly ours for 2005. It was a great wake-up call and the bounce back led to our Premiership. Thinking it indicates what will happen in R11 2006 when the Premiers play the Saints at the SCG is delusional.

3 things.

1) You are a rugby league fan who happened to catch the last quarter of the GF

or

2) You are a deadset moron

or

3) All of the above

 

[plough]

Re: Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!

Aussie Jones, not a single handed matchwinner but could have been an integral part of any finals campaign - until Thomas has a little heart to heart and chases a recent AA into premature retirement.
Incredible that the saints admin lets him get away with it. I QUOTE]


hahaha you absolute donkeynob...
that's one of the more stupid things i've read on here in the last 6 months.

mcFly, what is the stupid part? that you didn't read it in the papers, therefore it didn't happen. I bet you are still wondering why cunningham left.
Perphaps I need to flesh it out a little further for you, figured being a saints fan thought you might have had some idea but here goes:
GT - Aussie, you had a great year last season but this year was pretty crap, you are lazy and we need to work you harder. I am going to flog you on the track and you will have the biggest preseason you have ever had in your years here.
Aussie - no thanks, geez thought I might have earned a little respite to look after these old legs

Perphaps you have an alternate theory on why a player would walk away when the team has a genuine premiership chance. What's he going to do , share a couple of medallions with Milne and Montagna?

I reiterate, the saints are a good side with long suffering and generally likeable supporters, GT is the problem, but then again maybe I'll just be another Alan Scott

 

[Bloods Rule!]

Re: Ladies and Gents, I Introduce to you the AFL's Most Underrated Coach of All Time!

3 things.

1) You are a rugby league fan who happened to catch the last quarter of the GF

or

2) You are a deadset moron

or

3) All of the above

I presume you say that because you have no argument to offer. That's not surprising. Looking at the date you signed up for Big Footy I presume you are a bandwagonner (not that there's anything wrong with that, of course) who picked the Saints because the Hun said they had the best chance of winning the 2005 Premiership. It's not too late to turn from the dark side. But please don't pick the Swans - we prefer fans who can present cogent arguments.