Lets talk tactics

[stefoid]

Bit of a hot topic at the moment.

Caveat:
Suffice to say most of us are all ignorant loudmouths with opinions. Thats fine, its a football forum. This is a safe space.

However, if you do have some level of exposure to real tactics, probably in a recent playing capacity or whatever, please feel free to enlighten us unwashed masses!

Ill kick us off with some questions concerning moving and defending the ball through the midfield, a big deal for us right now.

I reckon historically under Bev, we have gone long and wide, on the basis that our slow but combative midfield was the strength of the team, but we werent much chop at either end. If your forwards and backs arent as classy as their opponents 1:1 , then you flood forward and back and make 1:1 irrelevant. Its kind of like a moron beating you in an argument by dragging you down to his level, then beating you with experience.

This plan is trumped by teams with that are willing and able to risk a quicker and more direct line to goal, on the basis that they might concede the stoppages overall to us, but are banking on being able to beat us at score from stoppages and rebounds

These days we are trying to play a more direct line to (and presumably form?) goal this season..at least hypothetically.

You cant stack the entire ground with players when attacking or defending, you have to leave some parts with more players than others. Lets say you can only stack 2/3rds of the width of the ground at any given time. If you intend to stack a wing and kick long down it, then you better also try to get numbers thru the middle (even if only to defend it) and leave the opposite wing open. But in doing this, you are leaving no doubt in the minds of your opponents of where you intend to go. Their aerial defenders and clearance players can shuffle to that side, and their runners can can cover space through the middle, and counterattack if the opportunity arises. Even if you do end up winning the ball wide on the wing, its at least two kicks inside 50, by which time it is full.

Contrast with stacking the corridor - perhaps concentrating more on length than width, and leaving both wings more open. Now there is doubt for the opponents - you can lead from the middle to either wing. If the opposition spreads wide to prevent lateral leads, you can attack the corridor in numbers, maybe kicking to players leading at the ball carrier

discuss....

 

[JTCWBFC]

Great thread.

I'd love to understand why we've always been obsessed with bringing an extra to the stoppage when our midfield is meant to be so amazing leaving us 1 down up forward.

Sick of watching defenders intercept all day.

 

[maddog37]

Tactics are largely irrelevant if the players aren’t motivated correctly.

 

[MrChristo]

Tactics are largely irrelevant if the players aren’t motivated correctly.

Yes and no.

I saw someone post the 'distance covered' numbers in another thread. And while it said we covered 4k's less over all, I would love to be able to access and analyse each individual's gps data from the game.

We're consistently poor late in quarters. We generally find it tough to score late in games.
Are our tactics/methods of compacting the ground when we don't have the ball overly taxing? Do we cover a lot of ground early and as such, fade late?

We were clearly out-run and out-worked on the weekend.

It's hard to believe that in such a professional environment (and even more so given the fact the basically everyone knows everyone, and I suspect there are very few secrets) that our fitness can be significantly worse than every other team, yet 10 minutes into the last quarter it was glaringly obvious that we were no chance to make up the (at the time) 3 goals. None.
We were totally stagnant and out on our feet...
...which of course leads to awful turnovers and easy late goals back the other way.

It didn't appear to me that Melbourne were doing anything different. Nothing particularly innovative tactically, they were simply better at the football basics.
(Including, but not limited to running hard, getting numbers to contests, bringing the ball to ground up forward, spreading from a contest, skill level...)

 

[dogwatch]

Yes and no.

I saw someone post the 'distance covered' numbers in another thread. And while it said we covered 4k's less over all, I would love to be able to access and analyse each individual's gps data from the game.

We're consistently poor late in quarters. We generally find it tough to score late in games.
Are our tactics/methods of compacting the ground when we don't have the ball overly taxing? Do we cover a lot of ground early and as such, fade late?

We were clearly out-run and out-worked on the weekend.

It's hard to believe that in such a professional environment (and even more so given the fact the basically everyone knows everyone, and I suspect there are very few secrets) that our fitness can be significantly worse than every other team, yet 10 minutes into the last quarter it was glaringly obvious that we were no chance to make up the (at the time) 3 goals. None.
We were totally stagnant and out on our feet...
...which of course leads to awful turnovers and easy late goals back the other way.

It didn't appear to me that Melbourne were doing anything different. Nothing particularly innovative tactically, they were simply better at the football basics.
(Including, but not limited to running hard, getting numbers to contests, bringing the ball to ground up forward, spreading from a contest, skill level...)

Good points.

I reckon it might take a good two pre-seasons to know whether our new fitness coaches are making an impact. It seems like a high expectation that we'll have suddenly caught up with the other clubs in just 2-3 months of pre-season work, assuming we were in fact lagging behind, as many have stated.

 

[stefoid]

If players feel like they are doing unproductive running, they might not bother later in quarters

 

[DognBones]

(Including, but not limited to running hard, getting numbers to contests, bringing the ball to ground up forward, spreading from a contest, skill level...)

Yes, much better work rate and better skills to take advantage of that workrate.

 

[Mojorisin]

It started as a sick joke to myself but I'm genuinely starting to think the 4 headed monster could work.

With naughton and Jamarra both arguably playing there best football up the ground.
I think we could afford to have lobb leading hard out of the goal square. Given space by jamarra pushing high half forward upto the wings to deliver inside 50 and Naughton having free roam to mark up around the arcs will leave lots of room for lobb in the goal square.
English and Darcy can split their time between the ruck and bench and briefly covering the other three forwards.

Aslong as this time around they aren't jammed in, they're surrounded by speed and pressure around the field at ground level and we don't also play three slow talls in defence.

This week for example we could go with the following (leaving out Red, O'Donnell and Coffield from my preferred backline)

FB: Williams Jones Bramble
HB: Dale. Khamis JJ
C: Gags Libba Marra
HF: Sanders Naughty West
FF: Flea Lobb VDM
R: English Bont Treloar
INT: Darcy Daniel Baker Macrea
SUB: Harmes


It may be crazy, it may be just crazy enough to work. If there is any time to try it I think it'd be this week when all 4 are absolutely humming.

 

[stefoid]

What I want to see against westcoast is rampant playing on directly down the guts with heaps of support runners from behind. We need to integrate this style of play and Westcoast is as safe an opportunity to practice that as we will get.

When we get tired, the movement ahead of the ball carrier dries up, so I think we need more running power in the 22, not more talls, particularly missing Richo and Coffield this week. Would have been a great opportunity for Bedendo to put in a blinder in 2s last week :-/

I think probably Harmes and Jacko coming in for Richards and Coffield writes itself this week.

 

[stefoid]

geelong is worst in the league for raw clearance numbers.

The stats for clearances show you can win games of footy without winning the stat. Its how the ball exits the clearance that is the important thing - a dump kick that lands in the arms of an opponent is a vastly different to a hand ball to a running player on the outside. But they both count as a clearance.

Similarly, defending a quality clearance is super important. The TV was all about "Libba loves playing the cats" But why doesnt Geelong stop him? because they dont care, they keep winning anyway.

They concede libba getting his hands on the ball, and concentrate on covering the guys he is going to give it to. And if the ball rolls their way and they get a clearance, they have players in plenty of space to give it to themselves.

Its a long winded way of saying geelong concede the inside of the contest to some extent so that they have better control of how it leaves the contest on the outside, both offensively and defensively.

A nice way to think of this is geelong thinks the 2nd possession is more important than the first one.

 

[Dazb86]

I'd like to see us drop bringing a forward up as an extra onballer. If our mids truely are great they shouldn't need the extra midfielder around the contest.

 

[Next Waiting]

I'd like to see us drop bringing a forward up as an extra onballer. If our mids truely are great they shouldn't need the extra midfielder around the contest.

They aren't truly great. As a unit, they are bog ordinary by competition standards. We have one truly great midfield player and one able lieutenant. That's it.

Perhaps that's why Bevo does it. Because he sees what most of us refuse to see, that being the bog ordinariness of the cattle at our disposal in this crucial area.

The tactic I would go with now is to throw convention (further) out the window. To try to win conventionally, with conventional set ups is going to get us nowhere as we are so far off it through the middle of the ground in terms of capable personnel.

 

[yebach]

They aren't truly great. As a unit, they are bog ordinary by competition standards. We have one truly great midfield player and one able lieutenant. That's it.

Perhaps that's why Bevo does it. Because he sees what most of us refuse to see, that being the bog ordinariness of the cattle at our disposal in this crucial area.

The tactic I would go with now is to throw convention (further) out the window. To try to win conventionally, with conventional set ups is going to get us nowhere as we are so far off it through the middle of the ground in terms of capable personnel.

Not having a crack. But is Collingwood's midfield truly great? Their back 6? Their forward 6?
On paper we stack up pretty well against the Premiers.

 

[JTCWBFC]

Reckon a new coach would froth the list.

Sure there's gaps, every list has them.

But some seriously good young talent, especially in the KP stocks which are the hardest to find.

Midfield refresh, sort out the wing situation, another small forward, a mature Key Defender for when Jones retires.

It's not too bad.

 

[Fossie 32]

Not having a crack. But is Collingwood's midfield truly great? Their back 6? Their forward 6?
On paper we stack up pretty well against the Premiers.

Plus not including this year they all gave their best and had a never say die attitude

 

[Shacf501]

I see it like this: We are not going to compete this year even if we made finals... unless the footy gods do something drastic.


So on that bases:

Structure - Naughton needs to go to centre half back - He wont domoinate to start with as he hasn't played there consistently but it would add far better structure to the side eventually.

Darcy becomes your stay at home forward and jamarra plays the current naughton forward role

Naughton at CHB then allow Baku to be that floating inteceptor that we know he can typically play.

I think he have to try and bring in another small natural forward. Not a weightman type but more of a clarke type player.

Dale to the wing, Baker OUT

Harmes needs to come in... we have no toughness whatsoever.... its embarrassing.

Westy needs to be developed into a midfielder, now is the time. No, he wont get as many possessions as a macrae or other players but what he will add is some aggression at the oppostion and pressure on ground balls. We are pathetic when the ball hits the ground in the centre square, atrocious at times.

I have been a strong supporter and defender of Tim over his career, but his lack of aggression at the cold face is costing us dearly around stoppages. Once the ruck contest takes place he is pretty much non existent at the moment. Opposition rucks are definitely targeting him physically and he isnt reacting. I don't know what the solution is but if the club is considering paying big dollars for him then some words need to be said because at the moment his physical presence for a guy his size is embarrassing and deplorable.

Also, Jamarra is developing well...has the potential to be anything, however... if you are going to show arrogance and talk crap to your opponent then make sure you kick the goal first. If you talk the talk back it up.... you could of kicked 5 but you didn't and this is becoming a consistent trait. Stop smerking and being a smartarse and kick the straight, that would stick it to your opponent

 

[Next Waiting]

Not having a crack. But is Collingwood's midfield truly great? Their back 6? Their forward 6?
On paper we stack up pretty well against the Premiers.

Their midfield is different better than ours. It's faster, more skilled and has a burst player in DeGoey. Oh, and a competitive ruck.

Defence quite a bit better.

Forward is line ball but their mids kick goals.

Take Bont out of our midfield and we are a bottom 8 midfield and not much higher with him there. It's dire tbh

 

[Next Waiting]

I see it like this: We are not going to compete this year even if we made finals... unless the footy gods do something drastic.


So on that bases:

Structure - Naughton needs to go to centre half back - He wont domoinate to start with as he hasn't played there consistently but it would add far better structure to the side eventually.

Darcy becomes your stay at home forward and jamarra plays the current naughton forward role

Naughton at CHB then allow Baku to be that floating inteceptor that we know he can typically play.

I think he have to try and bring in another small natural forward. Not a weightman type but more of a clarke type player.

Dale to the wing, Baker OUT

Harmes needs to come in... we have no toughness whatsoever.... its embarrassing.

Westy needs to be developed into a midfielder, now is the time. No, he wont get as many possessions as a macrae or other players but what he will add is some aggression at the oppostion and pressure on ground balls. We are pathetic when the ball hits the ground in the centre square, atrocious at times.

I have been a strong supporter and defender of Tim over his career, but his lack of aggression at the cold face is costing us dearly around stoppages. Once the ruck contest takes place he is pretty much non existent at the moment. Opposition rucks are definitely targeting him physically and he isnt reacting. I don't know what the solution is but if the club is considering paying big dollars for him then some words need to be said because at the moment his physical presence for a guy his size is embarrassing and deplorable.

Also, Jamarra is developing well...has the potential to be anything, however... if you are going to show arrogance and talk crap to your opponent then make sure you kick the goal first. If you talk the talk back it up.... you could of kicked 5 but you didn't and this is becoming a consistent trait. Stop smerking and being a smartarse and kick the straight, that would stick it to your opponent

Agree that Naughts goes back and Marra takes his current role. Jones, Naughts, JOD and Richards plus 2 more. The 2 more is problematic.

This is very counter intuitive but what if we take take Libba and Bont out of the stoppages and become man hunters not ball hunters.

Instead of starting them on the edge of the circle at CBs start them on the edge of the square. A totally defensive set up. Let the opposition get first possession but tag them all. Circle them rather than be circled. On the occasions that the ball spills clear of the area you have 2 players in Bont and Libba who have the skillset and temperament to make something happen. Harmes and West with regular man hunting minutes at stoppages plus Macrae and Treloar and bits and pieces from Sanders and Gallagher. Cameos from Libba and Bont but they remain in the midfield.

Not crazy enough? Gardner as a ruck! Don't try to win any taps, just launch into the opposing ruck as hard and often as you can and tackle anything that comes near you. And he'd do it willingly for the team. What he lacks in talent he has in dedication and commitment. Turn the whole thing into a war of attrition in the guts. No, you have it, and when you get it I'm going to bury you and I'm going to do it for 120 mins. Very few in this outfit have the tenacity but Harmes and West are probably 2 that do. But spare our stars from the bulk of the load.

Introduce club fines and sanctions for first possessions in a first half. I wanna see a stats sheet that shows we didn't win a first possession at a stoppage for an entire first half of football.

No point in being half crazy. We need full Bevo. I'd watch it.

 

[dogwatch]

Agree that Naughts goes back and Marra takes his current role. Jones, Naughts, JOD and Richards plus 2 more. The 2 more is problematic.

This is very counter intuitive but what if we take take Libba and Bont out of the stoppages and become man hunters not ball hunters.

Instead of starting them on the edge of the circle at CBs start them on the edge of the square. A totally defensive set up. Let the opposition get first possession but tag them all. Circle them rather than be circled. On the occasions that the ball spills clear of the area you have 2 players in Bont and Libba who have the skillset and temperament to make something happen. Harmes and West with regular man hunting minutes at stoppages plus Macrae and Treloar and bits and pieces from Sanders and Gallagher. Cameos from Libba and Bont but they remain in the midfield.

Not crazy enough? Gardner as a ruck! Don't try to win any taps, just launch into the opposing ruck as hard and often as you can and tackle anything that comes near you. And he'd do it willingly for the team. What he lacks in talent he has in dedication and commitment. Turn the whole thing into a war of attrition in the guts. No, you have it, and when you get it I'm going to bury you and I'm going to do it for 120 mins. Very few in this outfit have the tenacity but Harmes and West are probably 2 that do. But spare our stars from the bulk of the load.

Introduce club fines and sanctions for first possessions in a first half. I wanna see a stats sheet that shows we didn't win a first possession at a stoppage for an entire first half of football.

No point in being half crazy. We need full Bevo. I'd watch it.

Reminds me of that line from a C-Grade movie (or was it from Get Smart?):

"That's a crazy plan ... ... but it might just be crazy enough to work".

 

[TMoney22]

Id like to see English and JUH as key forwards. English as KPF using his work rate up and back.

Can't ask Darcy to ruck 60% of the game though.

 

[maddog37]

Agree that Naughts goes back and Marra takes his current role. Jones, Naughts, JOD and Richards plus 2 more. The 2 more is problematic.

This is very counter intuitive but what if we take take Libba and Bont out of the stoppages and become man hunters not ball hunters.

Instead of starting them on the edge of the circle at CBs start them on the edge of the square. A totally defensive set up. Let the opposition get first possession but tag them all. Circle them rather than be circled. On the occasions that the ball spills clear of the area you have 2 players in Bont and Libba who have the skillset and temperament to make something happen. Harmes and West with regular man hunting minutes at stoppages plus Macrae and Treloar and bits and pieces from Sanders and Gallagher. Cameos from Libba and Bont but they remain in the midfield.

Not crazy enough? Gardner as a ruck! Don't try to win any taps, just launch into the opposing ruck as hard and often as you can and tackle anything that comes near you. And he'd do it willingly for the team. What he lacks in talent he has in dedication and commitment. Turn the whole thing into a war of attrition in the guts. No, you have it, and when you get it I'm going to bury you and I'm going to do it for 120 mins. Very few in this outfit have the tenacity but Harmes and West are probably 2 that do. But spare our stars from the bulk of the load.

Introduce club fines and sanctions for first possessions in a first half. I wanna see a stats sheet that shows we didn't win a first possession at a stoppage for an entire first half of football.

No point in being half crazy. We need full Bevo. I'd watch it.

We play well when hunting like we did versus Rowell etc in the Ballarat game but go to water when we are hunted per Bombers game.

I want to know why we look so different in attitude between those two games??

 

[Next Waiting]

We play well when hunting like we did versus Rowell etc in the Ballarat game but go to water when we are hunted per Bombers game.

I want to know why we look so different in attitude between those two games??

My theory would be that when you're the hunted all your skill must be executed successfully under pressure to succeed. If you don't have enough cattle in the right place with the right stuff between the ears and resilience required you get what happened on Friday, and in Round 1.

If your list is fragile you're better off focusing their attention on hunting and releasing them from any expectations of creation under pressure. Destruction only. At this point I'd make the stoppage set ups the primary focus of this approach and I'd get Bont and Libba out of there to the periphery where they are a chance of capitalising on any any spoils/spills.

They could introduce club fines for any inside midfielder who attempts to win the ball rather than focusing on smashing their opponent. Any tackle that does not result in the opponent going to ground is a fine.

If Gardner was playing ruck, you could fine him for taking a possession, double it for a disposal and treble it for anyone who gives it to him. But you could reward him with a 5 year extension if he achieves 20 effective tackles and 20 1%ers in a match 5 times in a season with cash bonuses for every rib of the opposing ruck he breaks.

In the absence of expectation to perform any sort of attacking skill under pressure they might actually be capable of doing something...more by accident than design.

The hunting approach puts all the pressure to create on the opposition and if they hunt well enough they might create enough accidents to score themselves and maybe even win.

 

[maddog37]

For me it is a weekly issue with tackling intensity. We come out once in a blue moon and tackle like men possessed. It stands out because it is a break from normal viewing.

Get back to basics and tackle, shepherd, pressure, smother.

Run to impact the contest or support the ball carrier rather than for the cheap handball receive.

Couldn’t give a toss about advanced stats like defence to offence transition 50s etc

If we don’t play with some spirit and defensive focus all over the ground then all the beautiful ball movement in the world won’t help us.

God I sound soooo old!

 

[Next Waiting]

For me it is a weekly issue with tackling intensity. We come out once in a blue moon and tackle like men possessed. It stands out because it is a break from normal viewing.

Get back to basics and tackle, shepherd, pressure, smother.

Run to impact the contest or support the ball carrier rather than for the cheap handball receive.

Couldn’t give a toss about advanced stats like defence to offence transition 50s etc

If we don’t play with some spirit and defensive focus all over the ground then all the beautiful ball movement in the world won’t help us.

God I sound soooo old!

At the end of the day it's a physical game. You can actually stop the opposition from winning by physically stopping them and the best place to start is at the source...like what's being done to us.

I 100% agree that we need to play physical players in these positions for an extended period where their focus is not winning the ball and hot potatoing or dump kicking it out of there but rather surrounding and pounding their ball winners relentlessly until neither we nor they can stand up. At that point, Bont and Libba might just be able to waltz in and win the game for us, and then eventually Marra and Darcy and then the amazing shiny new recruit we unveil next year.

 

[dogwatch]

My theory would be that when you're the hunted all your skill must be executed successfully under pressure to succeed. If you don't have enough cattle in the right place with the right stuff between the ears and resilience required you get what happened on Friday, and in Round 1.

If your list is fragile you're better off focusing their attention on hunting and releasing them from any expectations of creation under pressure. Destruction only. At this point I'd make the stoppage set ups the primary focus of this approach and I'd get Bont and Libba out of there to the periphery where they are a chance of capitalising on any any spoils/spills.

They could introduce club fines for any inside midfielder who attempts to win the ball rather than focusing on smashing their opponent. Any tackle that does not result in the opponent going to ground is a fine.

If Gardner was playing ruck, you could fine him for taking a possession, double it for a disposal and treble it for anyone who gives it to him. But you could reward him with a 5 year extension if he achieves 20 effective tackles and 20 1%ers in a match 5 times in a season with cash bonuses for every rib of the opposing ruck he breaks.

In the absence of expectation to perform any sort of attacking skill under pressure they might actually be capable of doing something...more by accident than design.

The hunting approach puts all the pressure to create on the opposition and if they hunt well enough they might create enough accidents to score themselves and maybe even win.

You're a warped and twisted genius NW.

At the end of the day it's a physical game. You can actually stop the opposition from winning by physically stopping them and the best place to start is at the source...like what's being done to us.

I 100% agree that we need to play physical players in these positions for an extended period where their focus is not winning the ball and hot potatoing or dump kicking it out of there but rather surrounding and pounding their ball winners relentlessly until neither we nor they can stand up. ...

The more I think about it the more I am inclined to believe that Timmy's biggest problem with ballups and with "throwing his weight around" is the underlying anxiety of getting another concussion. He may want to go in hard but the risk of another concussion is holding him back. I'm not questioning his courage or determination, it's something a little more visceral or perhaps subconscious than that.

If correct this is a big problem for him, the side, the coach and the list manager. A problem that I can't see any easy way out of. Perhaps if he can go a full 12 months without another head knock it may become a bit less of an issue.