Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[Supermercado]

MOD NOTE: We have a Dropbox spreadsheet now to document all ongoing and closed cases. Please tag rbartlett to add to here once you've discussed something in the thread. Cheers.

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Over the years while researching Melbourne I've found several incidences when the newspapers have reported a player to be involved in a match which he's not credited with in official AFL records. There have been a few mentions of incidents like this in threads recently with players probably not being born on the date assigned to them, or having a different club of origin to the 'official' source so I thought it would be worth a thread where you can dump any that you find in which don't deserve their own thread.

One example was the long-held belief that Alex Hall had coached Melbourne in 1914 when it turned out to be Len Incigneri. I believe this has now been corrected in official records but club annual reports back to the 1950's (haven't seen any from before, but assuming that it's the same) list Hall. Maybe Incigneri asked them to delete his name due to the fact that we were total bobbins and could only beat University?

Another MFC one is Ivor Warne-Smith being shown as captain/coach in 1932 even though he only came out of playing retirement in Round 5 and didn't take the captaincy back from Francis Vine.

(P.S - Not confining this thread to VFL/AFL, do your best Lisa Simpson/Jebediah Springfield hatchet job on the official records of whatever league you like).

 

[the croucher]

Over the years while researching Melbourne I've found several incidences when the newspapers have reported a player to be involved in a match which he's not credited with in official AFL records. There have been a few mentions of incidents like this in threads recently with players probably not being born on the date assigned to them, or having a different club of origin to the 'official' source so I thought it would be worth a thread where you can dump any that you find in which don't deserve their own thread.

One example was the long-held belief that Alex Hall had coached Melbourne in 1914 when it turned out to be Len Incigneri. I believe this has now been corrected in official records but club annual reports back to the 1950's (haven't seen any from before, but assuming that it's the same) list Hall. Maybe Incigneri asked them to delete his name due to the fact that we were total bobbins and could only beat University?

Another MFC one is Ivor Warne-Smith being shown as captain/coach in 1932 even though he only came out of playing retirement in Round 5 and didn't take the captaincy back from Francis Vine.

(P.S - Not confining this thread to VFL/AFL, do your best Lisa Simpson/Jebediah Springfield hatchet job on the official records of whatever league you like).

The annual AFL Season Guide has in recent years taken to showing Footscray/Western Bulldogs club formation date as 26 April 1883.
The club obviously existed prior to this date - for example this report of an annual meeting printed in the Williamstown Chronicle issue of 24 March 1883 includes reference to an award presented to a player for his performances during the previous season: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/70007567
see column next to heading Libel Actions

and this report of an intra-club match printed in The Independent [Footscray] issue of 12 May 1883
comments on it being the club's fourth season: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/73244319

 

[the croucher]

Over the years while researching Melbourne I've found several incidences when the newspapers have reported a player to be involved in a match which he's not credited with in official AFL records. There have been a few mentions of incidents like this in threads recently with players probably not being born on the date assigned to them, or having a different club of origin to the 'official' source so I thought it would be worth a thread where you can dump any that you find in which don't deserve their own thread.

One example was the long-held belief that Alex Hall had coached Melbourne in 1914 when it turned out to be Len Incigneri. I believe this has now been corrected in official records but club annual reports back to the 1950's (haven't seen any from before, but assuming that it's the same) list Hall. Maybe Incigneri asked them to delete his name due to the fact that we were total bobbins and could only beat University?

Another MFC one is Ivor Warne-Smith being shown as captain/coach in 1932 even though he only came out of playing retirement in Round 5 and didn't take the captaincy back from Francis Vine.

(P.S - Not confining this thread to VFL/AFL, do your best Lisa Simpson/Jebediah Springfield hatchet job on the official records of whatever league you like).

The AFL Season Guide for some years now has shown Syd Barker as captain of North Melbourne in 1928.
Barker played in 0 of 18 for NM that year !!

 

[worbod]

One common misconception with the Bendigo Football League is the long accepted figure of 1,624 goals kicked by Ron Best. I firmly believe it should be 1,587, a total I have arrived at after having gone through each match Best played in the B. F. L. via the microfilms of the Bendigo Advertiser housed at the Bendigo Regional Library, writing down each match tally and then adding up his seasonal totals. One thing I have noticed after having read through the seasonal totals published in the B. F. L.’s own publication Hall of Fame (1986), is that one of the totals they list does not include finals goals kicked by Best, that being for 1968, where they have credited him with 102, not adding on the 4 goals he kicked in his only finals game that season. If we stay with the 1,624 total and add on these extra 4 goals, this now puts Best on 1,628. Hall of Fame lists his 1978 total as 115 instead of 124. It is difficualt to calculate how 9 goals have gone missing here. He kicked 9 in a homa and away match versus Kyneton and also 9 in the preliminary agaisnt Eaglehawk, but why weither of these two games should have been left out of his 1978 total is mystifiying. If we add on these 9 goals to the 1,628 we now arrive at 1,637, which is 50 ahead of the total I believe to be correct.
These additional 50 goals can be treaced to the most glaring error printed within Hall of Fame, Best's 1977 total, which they give as 75, instead of 25, which is low due to Best playing that season at centre half forward. Only once that season did Best kick more than two goals in a match, so how the figure of 75 is reached is somewhat perplexing.

 

[royals1922]

Given Trove, I try to doublecheck most facts pre 1940s . If people rechecked most facts, I suspect they would find more than a few errors.

 

[royals1922]

For me the biggest inaccuracy is in the name the shinboners for nm and it's origin. Prior to 1935, there is no reference to it on trove and only twice prior to 1942. There were other nicknames for nm before then, such as the gluepotters but not the shinboners. A whole mythology has been created and if it can happen over something like that, it can happen over anything

 

[fabulousphil]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/re-writing-of-australian-footballs-history.1040411/

Was scrolling through the Saints being relocated to NZ thread, when i remembered reading about a AF game in 1879 in Wellington NZ, which was the first game played under electric lights in the southern hemisphere, 2.5 months prior to the first night game under electric light at the MCG.

 

[fabulousphil]

For me the biggest inaccuracy is in the name the shinboners for nm and it's origin. Prior to 1935, there is no reference to it on trove and only twice prior to 1942. There were other nicknames for nm before then, such as the gluepotters but not the shinboners. A whole mythology has been created and if it can happen over something like that, it can happen over anything

Not so sure about Shinboners, just because Trove does not report it in newspapers does not mean it did not exist.

Newspapers i suspect were rather official in their reporting and nicknames etc possibly were not reported as widely as perhaps they were used in the general community.

 

[royals1922]

Not so sure about Shinboners, just because Trove does not report it in newspapers does not mean it did not exist.

Newspapers i suspect were rather official in their reporting and nicknames etc possibly were not reported as widely as perhaps they were used in the general community.

And that is the point. It is presumed that a fact exists even if there not a scintilla of contemporaryevidence to support it.

 

[fabulousphil]

And that is the point. It is presumed that a fact exists even if there not a scintilla of contemporaryevidence to support it.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...boners football&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria

YEARS ago, they were called¡ the "Shinboners" and¡ today North Melbourne still

from 1952

are you suggesting this bloke made it up ?.

 

[fabulousphil]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...north melbourne&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria

1936


have engaged a League player, Neville'Huggins, of. the "shin-boners". (North Melbourne)

 

[royals1922]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/23193791?searchTerm=shinboners football&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria

YEARS ago, they were called¡ the "Shinboners" and¡ today North Melbourne still

from 1952

are you suggesting this bloke made it up ?.

Go before that, go before 1940. A lot of the 50s reports are based on received memory and have no contemporary basis.

And the source of that report is never stated....

 

[fabulousphil]

1935

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/70731397?searchTerm="shinboners" football north melbourne&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria

Cairo Dixon, ,one of our late players, is now located 'with the "shinboners ". (North Melbourne, .?and InstSaturday' worn'the rich" Romaey Trophy''for ,the best "shinboner " afield.

 

[royals1922]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/70733565?searchTerm=shinbones football north melbourne&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria

1936


have engaged a League player, Neville'Huggins, of. the "shin-boners". (North Melbourne)

Been there FP. That's the williamstown chronicle is nt that. There was one writer in the williamstown chronicle who called nm a couple of times the shinboners in the late 1930s, a name not used by anyone else. Story doesn't die there though, in about 1941, his son tried out for nm so there may be some continuity there. Apart from the williamstown references, there is no other reference to them being the shinboners even in the local nm press.

Now if want to know where I think the name came from, in about 1933, nm and st Kilda had a fractious match where st Kilda ended up with 15 players and still from memory won the game. There were accusations of thuggery by nm but at no point did the press abuse nm by calling them the shinboners even though it wis logical it would be brought up at this time. That is where I think the name gained currency.

 

[fabulousphil]

Been there FP. That's the williamstown chronicle is nt that. There was one writer in the williamstown chronicle who called nm a couple of times the shinboners in the late 1930s, a name not used by anyone else. Story doesn't die there though, in about 1941, his son tried out for nm so there may be some continuity there. Apart from the williamstown references, there is no other reference to them being the shinboners even in the local nm press.

Now if want to know where I think the name came from, in about 1933, nm and st Kilda had a fractious match where st Kilda ended up with 15 players and still from memory won the game. There were accusations of thuggery by nm but at no point did the press abuse nm by calling them the shinboners even though it wis logical it would be brought up at this time. That is where I think the name gained currency.

The way he uses the word in his article suggests ( to me) that it was common and used before, like today some supporters will use maggies, pies and woodsmen etc for Collingwood it seems to me that perhaps some North fans used this term for North.

i have a mate who has been calling Collingwood the "Woodsmen" for about 50 years, is that in Trove ?.

Edit ....yes it is

 

[royals1922]

The way he uses the word in his article suggests ( to me) that it was common and used before, like today some supporters will use maggies, pies and woodsmen etc for Collingwood it seems to me that perhaps some North fans used this term for North.

i have a mate who has been calling Collingwood the "Woodsmen" for about 50 years, is that in Trove ?.

Edit ....yes it is

That's the point. You can trace tigers to at least 1915 in trove, saints etc way back but you can't trace shinboners before the reports in the williamstown chronicle.

 

[Supermercado]

That's the point. You can trace tigers to at least 1915 in trove, saints etc way back but you can't trace shinboners before the reports in the williamstown chronicle.

I've noticed St Kilda called the Saints in the early 1900's then at some point they switch to the Seasiders.

 

[fabulousphil]

That's the point. You can trace tigers to at least 1915 in trove, saints etc way back but you can't trace shinboners before the reports in the williamstown chronicle.

My guess is shinboners was a nickname used by some supporters way back, related somehow to the many abbattoirs around Kensington and North Melbourne, it just makes sense.

I have not heard many Collingwood supporters use Woodsmen and absolutely none use Flatites, but apparently that was a old name for the club Hawthorn fans use Mayblooms or Melbourne fans use invincible white etc.

Shinboners is not the same as Woodsmen, it conjures up thoughts of a hard, rough even dirty brand of football and perhaps that is why it is not recorded before 1935 in the press.

 

[royals1922]

My guess is shinboners was a nickname used by some supporters way back, related somehow to the many abbattoirs around Kensington and North Melbourne, it just makes sense.

I have not heard many Collingwood supporters use Woodsmen and absolutely none use Flatites, but apparently that was a old name for the club Hawthorn fans use Mayblooms or Melbourne fans use invincible white etc.

Shinboners is not the same as Woodsmen, it conjures up thoughts of a hard, rough even dirty brand of football and perhaps that is why it is not recorded before 1935 in the press.

I don't disagree that it has a ring of plausability about it. It just has no backing in the written form unlike all of the older names like collingwood, tigers etc which are reflected in the then contemporary newspapers. My view is that the 1933 game against the saints gave rise to the dirty north epithet which also coincided with perhaps the abattoir background and hence the name may have got some currency.

It is the semi official name now but when it came about is by no means certain. As I have mentioned, gluepotters was an early pre 1900 nickname (because of the state of the nm ground) but when the ground got upgraded, it went out of fashion.

 

[fabulousphil]

I may also point out that Essendon was at one stage called the blood stained ******s by some of it's fans, but i bet you won't find that on Trove, perhaps being called a Shinboner was akin to that.

BTW it was not chaps but n i g g e r s or tiggers with a N

 

[royals1922]

I may also point out that Essendon was at one stage called the blood stained chaps by some of it's fans, but i bet you won't find that on Trove, perhaps being called a Shinboner was akin to that.

The expression was blood stained ........ .

 

[fabulousphil]

The expression was blood stained ........ .

Yep the computer changed it.

It is quite feasible that shinboners was as bad a word to use as tiggers 140 years ago in a football sense.

Perhaps it was just a section of the supporter base that called them that, not official nor sanctioned by the club, perhaps when they attempted to join the VFL they banned the name or went quiet on it as they wanted a respectable front.

Who knows how people or the club thought back then.

 

[fabulousphil]

The expression was blood stained ........ .

just out of interest what is the earliest date for gluepotters ?.

 

[royals1922]

just out of interest what is the earliest date for gluepotters ?.

I posted it elsewhere, 1880s to 1900.
Nms oval was poor and had severe drainage issues

 

[the croucher]

just out of interest what is the earliest date for gluepotters ?.

Here is a ref to the state of the NM ground written in 1894
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/73765224