Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[GreyCrow]

Name changes or birth names - what are the protocols ie in the interest of accuracy can we now ensure proper names are used? I recall rbartlett chasing the spelling for La Fontaine

I have found quite a few as an example Joe Kerrigan (Fitzroy 1897) is in fact John Thomas Kerrigan and Bill Ockleshaw (St Kilda 1902) is Rowland Ockleshaw. (as a side note I cant find an appropriate DOB in Vic BDM yet death notice says born Northcote)

Edit: Rowland Ockleshaw born in Tamworth 1877 to James and Sarah
OCKLESHAW ROWLAND
20919/1877
JAMES
SARAH
TAMWORTH

 

[35Daicos]

Name changes or birth names - what are the protocols ie in the interest of accuracy can we now ensure proper names are used? I recall rbartlett chasing the spelling for La Fontaine

I have found quite a few as an example Joe Kerrigan (Fitzroy 1897) is in fact John Thomas Kerrigan and Bill Ockleshaw (St Kilda 1902) is Rowland Ockleshaw. (as a side note I cant find an appropriate DOB in Vic BDM yet death notice says born Northcote)

Edit: Rowland Ockleshaw born in Tamworth 1877 to James and Sarah
OCKLESHAW ROWLAND
20919/1877
JAMES
SARAH
TAMWORTH

Rowland had a brother, William Caleb, who died in 1945 (he was living at Northcote).

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/977467/33345



Event Death
Event registration number 8982
Registration year 1945

Personal information
Family name OCKLESHAW
Given names William Caleb
Sex Male
Father's name OCKLESHAW James
Mother's name Sarah (Flude)
Place of birth NEW ZEALAND
Place of death PARKVILLE
Age 75

 

[35Daicos]

Name changes or birth names - what are the protocols ie in the interest of accuracy can we now ensure proper names are used? I recall rbartlett chasing the spelling for La Fontaine

I have found quite a few as an example Joe Kerrigan (Fitzroy 1897) is in fact John Thomas Kerrigan and Bill Ockleshaw (St Kilda 1902) is Rowland Ockleshaw. (as a side note I cant find an appropriate DOB in Vic BDM yet death notice says born Northcote)

Edit: Rowland Ockleshaw born in Tamworth 1877 to James and Sarah
OCKLESHAW ROWLAND
20919/1877
JAMES
SARAH
TAMWORTH

William Caleb Ockleshaw's birth was registered in New Zealand in 1869. So if it was (this) Bill Ockleshaw who played that one game for St Kilda then he would have been about 33 years of age. No doubt that could have happened, so perhaps they just have the brothers' DOB and DOD mixed up?

 

[GreyCrow]

William Caleb Ockleshaw's birth was registered in New Zealand in 1869. So if it was (this) Bill Ockleshaw who played that one game for St Kilda then he would have been about 33 years of age. No doubt that could have happened, so perhaps they just have the brothers' DOB and DOD mixed up?

Could be

 

[GreyCrow]

My original query was on are we as a group going to also look at finding correct names to better reflect an accurate data set?

 

[the croucher]

My original query was on are we as a group going to also look at finding correct names to better reflect an accurate data set?

Short answer from me is yes !

My ideal data set would include:
[ surname ] [ given names ] [ commonly known as ] [ DOB ] [ place of birth ] [ DOD ] [ place of death ]

e.g with the naming section, let us assume there were 3 brothers of the fictional Citizen family who played VFL football.

[ surname ] [ given names ] [ commonly known as ]
[ Citizen ] [ Laurence Alwyn ] [ Dick ]

[ Citizen ] [ Clifford Charles ] [ Ned ]

[ Citizen ] [ Alan Kingslie ] [ George ]

...and yes, those given names with totally different "commonly known as" names are genuine - they were my uncles.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Short answer from me is yes !
My ideal data set would include:
[ surname ] [ given names ] [ commonly known as ] [ DOB ] [ place of birth ] [ DOD ] [ place of death ]

Big yes from me too

This is pretty much identical to what I have been compiling... see attached file
I have shifted over time to adding records to wikipedia / wikidata so need to reconcile the two sources.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Hi all - have made a lot of additions to the spreadsheet linked in post 1 that summarises all of the changes identified in this thread.
Still a work in progress but well over 100 changes now captured there - and started to record whether they are changed in key online sources.

Proposal is to move "completed changes" to a separate tab in spreadsheet once we've worked out which ones are actually complete!
Feedback welcome as always

 

[ThePope]

Based on the obituary scans that Daicos35 had provided in the missing DOB/DOD thread, I'm starting to cross check against our records.
Jim Brown (we have him as Jim W. but no middle name in death notice) has an incorrect DOB. All our records have 18 October 1926, AFL obit and death notice say 18 December 1926.
http://obituaries.themercury.com.au/notice/33892083/view?random=1540454346994

 

[35Daicos]

Based on the obituary scans that Daicos35 had provided in the missing DOB/DOD thread, I'm starting to cross check against our records.
Jim Brown (we have him as Jim W. but no middle name in death notice) has an incorrect DOB. All our records have 18 October 1926, AFL obit and death notice say 18 December 1926.
http://obituaries.themercury.com.au/notice/33892083/view?random=1540454346994

On the AFL Historical Statistics site the Fitzroy 1947 page had:

 

[Supermercado]

BDM/Ancestry gurus - could anyone help on player Claud Carr (demonwiki.org/claud+carr) - DOB 29/11/1905 I've found two different newspapers referring to him as Clement/Clem Carr. Might have just been that he didn't like his original name and switched to a middle name etc... but a basic BDM search didn't bring up any Claud or Clement.

 

[35Daicos]

BDM/Ancestry gurus - could anyone help on player Claud Carr (demonwiki.org/claud+carr) - DOB 29/11/1905 I've found two different newspapers referring to him as Clement/Clem Carr. Might have just been that he didn't like his original name and switched to a middle name etc... but a basic BDM search didn't bring up any Claud or Clement.

This should be his birth and death reg. at BDM:

Record information
Event Birth
Event registration number 2707
Registration year 1906

Personal information
Family name CARR
Given names Claud
Sex Male
Father's name Wm
Mother's name Ellen (Whitla)
Place of birth ECHUCA

Record information
Event Death
Event registration number 4126
Registration year 1948

Personal information
Family name CARR
Given names Claude
Sex Male
Father's name CARR William
Mother's name Ellen (Whitta)
Place of birth ECHUCA
Place of death PARKVILLE
Age 42

This should be his mother's death notices: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206896765 (30 July 1948)


Claude(s) sister Alice married Clem Feehan in 1928, in case the mention of Clem is confusing!
Record information
Event Marriage
Event registration number 11074
Registration year 1928

Personal information
Family name CARR
Given names Alice May
Sex Unknown
Spouse's family name FEEHAN
Spouse's given names Clement Daniel

His marriage reg.:
Record information
Event Marriage
Event registration number 6946
Registration year 1934

Personal information
Family name CARR
Given names Claude
Sex Unknown
Spouse's family name ANDREWS
Spouse's given names Queenie Vict Eleanor

 

[35Daicos]

BDM/Ancestry gurus - could anyone help on player Claud Carr (demonwiki.org/claud+carr) - DOB 29/11/1905 I've found two different newspapers referring to him as Clement/Clem Carr. Might have just been that he didn't like his original name and switched to a middle name etc... but a basic BDM search didn't bring up any Claud or Clement.

Ignore my previous post!!

It now seems they have this totally wrong (name, DOB, DOD). The Melbourne player was quite clearly Clem Carr (from Tocumwal), and this suggests he was born c. 1901, and came from SA originally: http://websites.sportstg.com/club_info.cgi?c=1-6191-147841-339214-21805719&sID=382250

Clem Carr

In 1922, the 21 yr old Clem Carr, arrived in Toc to work on a farm at The Rocks. Already a talented horseman & natural athlete in his home state of SA, Clem looked the goods when the farmers from The Rocks decided to challlenge the Toc team in a scratch match. "What position do you play Clem?" the farmers a asked. "Who is Toc's best player?" was the reply. "Clarrie Hearn is their best" .To which Clem stated, "Well I'll play on him!" . It's an historical fact that The Rocks did beat Toc for the only time that day, and so began Clem's career in Toc.

A 6ft high-leaping ruckman of immense strength, Clem commenced his career with the Bloods, and soon established himself as their premier player. After a season in the Goulburn Valley with Tatura(1925) Clem was being pursued the strongest club in the land, Melbourne. On his return to Toc, he was named Captain in 1926 & 1927 (there were no coaches).

Finally , in 1928, Clem is lured to Melbourne and becomes Toc's 1st ever VFL/AFL player at age of 27. Playing in the ruck, he is partnered the Demons ruck-rover & coach Ivor Warne-Smith (dual Brownlow medallist & the best player in Australia). After 4 senior games in 1928/29 Clem returms to the bush, much to Toc's delight. Appointed captain again in 1932, Clem win's Toc's 1st ever Best & Fairest in 1930, followed by another B&F in 1934.

Clem's local footy career culminates in 1935, when Toc win their 1st Murray League premiership, in his last game of football, he is voted best-on-ground. A perfect finish to a great career.

Clem Carr - arguably the best player with Toc in the 1st 50 years.
=========================================
So many articles refer to the player as Clem (from Tocumwal).

Here's an article from 1954 that refers to Mr. and Mrs. Clem Carr of Tocumwal, visiting family in SA. Claude Carr had died several years earlier, so definitely two different men.

It looks as if Claud(e) Carr may have been mixed up with Clem Carr partly because of the similar names, he was born around the right time, and Echuca is reasonably close to Tocumwal.

 

[35Daicos]

Should be his birth details (from SA - Findmypast). Flinders (far west) would be the right district:

This person's death was registered (NSW) in 1984:



https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/clement-john-carr_139345110

Born in Stone Hut on 5 Jun 1901 to Abram Carr and Alice Ada Wishart. Clement John Carr married Alice Ursula Breen and had 2 children. He passed away on 2 Jul 1984 in Tocumwal, New South Wales, Australia.

Here's his permit (28 June 1928):

Army record:

 

[Supermercado]

These should be his birth details (from SA - Findmypast). Flinders (far west) would be the right district:View attachment 579305

This person's death was registered (NSW) in 1984:

View attachment 579309

https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/clement-john-carr_139345110

Born in Stone Hut on 5 Jun 1901 to Abram Carr and Alice Ada Wishart. Clement John Carr married Alice Ursula Breen and had 2 children. He passed away on 2 Jul 1984 in Tocumwal, New South Wales, Australia.

Here's his permit (28 June 1928): View attachment 579335

Army record:
View attachment 579349

Thank you very much for your help, great to see another incorrect official record picked up.

 

[GreyCrow]

Just a heads up on processing information.

This is not an inaccuracy but more something to keep in mind when perusing BDMs

Howard Okey - full name Howard Clement Okey - played for Essendon and became Team Manager/Selector etc AF states he was born 1906 and died 1985. I have no issue with this but I thought it interesting his birth isnt registered until 1922


Event registration number 14102 Registration year 1922 Personal information Family name OKEY Given names Howard Clement

Father's name Walt Mother's name Annie (Caddy)

Again no inaccuracy but to highlight how one can take information as gospel

 

[the croucher]

Based on the obituary scans that Daicos35 had provided in the missing DOB/DOD thread, I'm starting to cross check against our records.
Jim Brown (we have him as Jim W. but no middle name in death notice) has an incorrect DOB. All our records have 18 October 1926, AFL obit and death notice say 18 December 1926.
http://obituaries.themercury.com.au/notice/33892083/view?random=1540454346994

Don't have any more info to help with confirmed DOB yet, but I think he should be cited as having just one given name.
Certainly haven't found any record listing him as "Jim W" or similar variation.

All the electoral records I can find so far (1950s - 1980) for his time in New Norfolk - many with Maurine Marjorie (wife) at same address - list him as "Brown, James." No middle name.

A couple of Ancestry family trees show our player as having Kinnear as his second name, but I cannot find any official record of that.
His father certainly had that as one of his given names, and some other siblings listed also have it,
but at moment it may be "family enthusiasm" showing it that way for Jim Brown, rather than fact.

 

[GreyCrow]

Vic BDM death record 1966 / 28115 has George Samuel Boyd Stewart dying in Bendigo aged 85 giving birth approx. 1881 and states place of birth as Scotland. I think this variously named man was the player but would appreciate thoughts, challenges and additional research from any board members

Given the info above the corresponding death sees George as 85 years at death and birth in Glasgow. ScotlandsPeople have a marriage of the following. Given the information on the death certificate and the matching naming pattern and given Anderston is an area/suburb of Glasgow I am happy this is his parents.
STEWART SAMUEL BOYD - THOMPSON JESSIE 1880 644/10 106 Anderston

To then find this in 1882
STEWART SAMUEL BOYD M 1882 622/1 630 Maryhill

Then we see this



Birthdate September Seventeenth

 

[Supermercado]

75 pages in I'm not sure if we've covered this before, but Claude Bryan is shown in official records as playing for Melbourne vs Carlton in the 1915 Semi Final. All of Football Record, Winner and Punch mention that he was absent.

 

[35Daicos]

75 pages in I'm not sure if we've covered this before, but Claude Bryan is shown in official records as playing for Melbourne vs Carlton in the 1915 Semi Final. All of Football Record, Winner and Punch mention that he was absent.

The Herald doesn't really help as it names Bryan in the team (post-match). However, it does mention Ba(c)quie, who wasn't named. It also names Haughton (should be Huntington) in the Melbourne side, though he played for Carlton in this game (named for them as well).

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

The Herald doesn't really help as it names Bryan in the team (post-match). However, it does mention Ba(c)quie, who wasn't named. It also names Haughton (should be Huntington) in the Melbourne side, though he played for Carlton in this game (named for them as well).
View attachment 580115

Both The Argus and The Age reports mention Bacquie as playing as well

 

[35Daicos]

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242416826 (The Herald 3 Sep - the following Friday)

This is a bit odd because George is also named in the official line-up, so Baquie seems the likely candidate to take Bryan's spot (in official line-up).

 

[Supermercado]

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242416826
View attachment 580117
This is a bit odd because George is also named in the official line-up, so Baquie seems the likely candidate to take Bryan's spot (in official line-up).

Great stuff, Bryan is definitely out and I'm going to adjust my records accordingly. Baquie played the week before so will have to look into why he was out of the side in the first place.

 

[35Daicos]

Great stuff, Bryan is definitely out and I'm going to adjust my records accordingly. Baquie played the week before so will have to look into why he was out of the side in the first place.

Finding out just why Bryan didn't show up might prove interesting as well! Perhaps Baquie may simply have been left out of the team (originally); this Sporting Judge article suggests his form hadn't been good?:


This was the lineup in The Age the day before the match (Bacquie, Bryan and George were all named):

Gibb must have been the last minute replacement for Bryan - he is named in the official lineup (another paper suggested he did a poor job of taking his place).

Edit: Bryan was absent in Sydney, according to Winner.

 

[GreyCrow]

Jack Baquie full name John Alfred Baquie