Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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I believe some changes are necessary to VFL match start times as listed in official records, details below:

1907 Rnd 3 Fitzroy v Geelong 3.20 not 3.00
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/147917366
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10634730


1912 Rnd 2 Geelong v St Kilda 3.23 not 3.00
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148716965
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11673118


1918 Rnd 13 Geelong v Carlton 3.15 not 3.00
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119749940
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155132927


1936 Rnd 7 to 12 all matches 2.30 not 2.45
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244738639
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244751298
 
Found crowd sizes for several 1908 Richmond matches, that the AFL will need to add in

Rd 1 1908 (8,000-9,000). I've already told *Paul* about this one.
Rd 3 1908 (8,000) I've already told Paul about this one.
Rd 7 1908 (15,000) New entry.
 

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Anyone have a special program that can bring clearer the faded text in Richmond's 1908 lineup here published in the Herald, particularly the centreman. Round 9 1908
I read the team from backline as
Ryan, Neil, Stainer
Lawson, Luff, Incigneri,
Megson , ? , Bowden
O'Connell, Condon, Olson
Bourke , Pannam, Schmidt

Lang,
Burns, Mahoney.

Process of elimination says missing name would be George Gibson (who had played week before in Back Pocket).
Our regularly centreman was Hill, who DNP this game
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page26265286
 
rbartlett said:
Anyone have a special program that can bring clearer the faded text in Richmond's 1908 lineup here published in the Herald, particularly the centreman. Round 9 1908
I read the team from backline as
Ryan, Neil, Stainer
Lawson, Luff, Incigneri,
Megson , ? , Bowden
O'Connell, Condon, Olson
Bourke , Pannam, Schmidt

Lang,
Burns, Mahoney.

Process of elimination says missing name would be George Gibson (who had played week before in Back Pocket).
Our regularly centreman was Hill, who DNP this game
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page26265286
Click to expand...
Gibson is obviously the other player who is named in the official lineup, and it does look as if that would match the name of the player in the centre. He is named by The Herald as an omission from the side a week later.

I do think there may be an issue with the St Kilda team, and it would be nice to get a clearer look at that one, also! Brennan may have played instead of Feehan. The Age says "St. Kilda were without the services of Lever and Feehan, and played for the first time Brennan, who comes from Kyneton." The Prahran Telegraph says "Cumberland was played, the crowd marking its appreciation of his inclusion by a round of applause as he took the field. Brennan, a new man from Kyneton, was given a trial, and he acquitted himself satisfactorily. These players took the places of Feehan and Lever, there being no other alteration in the team"

The paper names Brennan in the placed lineup, and leaves Feehan out.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1908/141519080620.html
 
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Okay, so the Richmond side of Rd 9 1908 seems to be okay (I was checking if J Green appeared anywhere),
but looking at those extracts you posted, it does seem we may have stumbled on a potential new player for StKilda - Brennan (Kyneton).
 
rbartlett said:
Okay, so the Richmond side of Rd 9 1908 seems to be okay (I was checking if J Green appeared anywhere),
but looking at those extracts you posted, it does seem we may have stumbled on a potential new player for StKilda - Brennan (Kyneton).
Click to expand...
Yes, but if Brennan from Kyneton did indeed play that game, proving it may be rather difficult, unless a permit or more info comes along.

Green was named in the Richmond squad for that game in The Herald on the Friday before the game.
 
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GreyCrow said:
(rbartlett ) In looking for the above Brennan I noticed this. Can you confirm 1900 Brennan is Owen and not C as in this permit from Richmond to Collingwood ?

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190056359
Click to expand...

Well, we don't have a Brennan playing at all in 1900 for Richmond.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players though we have possible two Brennans 1896-1897 and then 1904-1905 (Arthur "Snowy').
I do have this however as a non-player for Richmond at the bottom of my VFA page:
"C Brennan is given a permit to Collingwood in May 1900. Looks like it is Owen C Brennan (brother of Arthur Brennan). Looks like he went from Richmond to Collingwood 1900-1903 , back to Richmond 1904, back to Collingwood and then Port Melbourne in 1904"
 
rbartlett said:
Well, we don't have a Brennan playing at all in 1900 for Richmond.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players though we have possible two Brennans 1896-1897 and then 1904-1905 (Arthur "Snowy').
I do have this however as a non-player for Richmond at the bottom of my VFA page:
"C Brennan is given a permit to Collingwood in May 1900. Looks like it is Owen C Brennan (brother of Arthur Brennan). Looks like he went from Richmond to Collingwood 1900-1903 , back to Richmond 1904, back to Collingwood and then Port Melbourne in 1904"
Click to expand...
Thanks. I think it is possible they are brothers born to William and Mary (Farrell)

Not listed as brothers at australianfootball.com (dates in AF match Vic BDM for both and parents)
 
Dan Minogue injured his knee in Rd 7 1925, and as such retired as a Richmond player, and was unable to coach the club from Rd 8 - 10 inclusive.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article244037432
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article244037434
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155765689

He returned for the Rd 11 match vs StKilda onwards http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article244040462 though the knee injury still troubled him that couldn't play

TigerlandArchive has been updated.
*Paul* would need to add 3 more games to Mel Morris' coaching career, and remove those 3 games (2 losses + 1 win) from Dan Minogue's career (meaning Minogue is now on 101 for Richmond, and 359 overall. )

Spreadsheet to be updated to advise the League.
 
the croucher said:
Greetings all. A fairly minor one here, but I think we should ask for height of Billy Mahoney (Geelong, St Kilda, Richmond) to be reduced in official records.
When position is specifically described in match reports he is noted as a lively "little" rover - therefore the physical description of him which appears in the Vic Police Gazette in Aug/Sept 1911 giving height as 5ft 4in means that his metric height should probably be 163cm.
Click to expand...

Mahoney was a policeman? Where's that located the croucher . I don't think I was aware of that.
 
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the croucher said:
I believe some changes are necessary to VFL match start times as listed in official records, details below:

1907 Rnd 3 Fitzroy v Geelong 3.20 not 3.00
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/147917366
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10634730


1912 Rnd 2 Geelong v St Kilda 3.23 not 3.00
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148716965
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11673118


1918 Rnd 13 Geelong v Carlton 3.15 not 3.00
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119749940
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155132927


1936 Rnd 7 to 12 all matches 2.30 not 2.45
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244738639
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244751298
Click to expand...

Have found more matches which apparently start later than designated time.

1900 - Rnd 6 Fitzroy v Geelong due 3.00pm
"Owing to the train being delayed, the game was 20 minutes late in starting"
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/121800211


1902 - Rnd 12 Carlton v Essendon due 3.00pm
"close on a quarter past three when the ball was bounced"
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241991436

1903 - Grand Final Collingwood v Fitzroy due 2.50pm
"From the time the field umpire Gibson bounced the ball at ten minutes past three"
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/246095753
 
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Les McCann played with Carlton in 1944

Encyclopedia has DOB 29 August 1920 and says ex-Navy and Ascot Vale
Wikipedia has DOB 29 August 1920 DOD 27 Oct 1990
AFL Tables has DOB 20 Feb 1920
australianfootball.com DOB 20 Feb 1920 DOD 27 Oct 1990
blueseum has DOB 29 August 1920 DOD 27 Oct 1990 and has a photo
Harder Than Football has DOB 20 Oct 1920 and describes Navy service

Looking at WW2 nominal roll there are two Les McCann’s
- Leslie George McCann DOB 20 Feb 1920 born in Ascot Vale and served in Army/Navy
- Leslie John McCann DOB 29 Aug 1920 born in Moama and served in RAAF

Looking at Trove, articles suggest an RAAF connection (can’t find anything linking him to the Navy)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11814252 “McCann, a RAAF boy”
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11815418 “his place will be taken by McCann (RAAF)”
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11354413 29 Jul 1944 “McCann (Carlton) was taken to RAAF hospital suffering from a dislocated elbow”

Looking at National Archives service records for Leslie John McCann there is a photo on p18 that closely resembles the photo on the blueseum page and on p8 you can see that he was “posted” to 6R Hospital in Heidelberg on 29 Jul 1944 (as per dislocated elbow in VFL game)

No site seems to have fully correct records for this player
He was Leslie John McCann
Born 29 Aug 1920 in Moama
Died 13 Feb 1994 in Echuca (see https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/189969577)
 
the croucher said:
I believe some changes are necessary to VFL match start times as listed in official records, details below:

1907 Rnd 3 Fitzroy v Geelong 3.20 not 3.00
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/147917366
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10634730


1912 Rnd 2 Geelong v St Kilda 3.23 not 3.00
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148716965
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11673118


1918 Rnd 13 Geelong v Carlton 3.15 not 3.00
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119749940
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155132927


1936 Rnd 7 to 12 all matches 2.30 not 2.45
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244738639
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244751298
Click to expand...

I agree that these are to go on the spreadsheet when possible.
As for the 1936, I was at AFL HQ today and in their 1936 League Annual Report it says:
"During the months of June and July it was agreed to commence play 15 minutes earlier"
 
35Daicos said:
1911 rd. 12 - Alan Tait looks to have played for University against Richmond. The Age, The Argus and The Australasian give him quite a good mention so it looks almost certain that he played. He's not in the official lineup, his one and only career game supposedly came in rd. 16 that year.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196219872
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11598473/365009
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/142947121

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1911/141719110708.html
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Alan_Tait.html

As for whose place in the official team he would have to take, no idea at this stage! Tait (Tate) is mentioned by The Age as an out the following week.
=============================================================
Rd. 13 - Greenham is not in the official lineup for University against Carlton. The Age, The Argus and The Australasian all give him quite a good mention so it looks almost certain that he played.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/196208084
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11600354
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/15073320
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1911/031719110715.html

And again, not sure as to whose spot he should take.
Click to expand...
I decided to delve into one of the unresolved items in our spreadsheet – the post above from 35Daicos ….

University 1911 line ups

Rd 12 – University v Richmond
  • Multiple sources indicate that Alan Tait played and this was his debut game
  • Twelve University players are mentioned in match reports – the six credited with games but not mentioned are Bennett, Gray, Hinman (2), Nicholas and Wilson
  • Reports mention amongst the inclusions were “Hurley, Denehy & Tait”
  • George Elliott (capt) missed the game following a family bereavement and Dave Greenham (vice-capt) played despite an injured shoulder (he missed Rd 11)
Rd 13 – University v Carlton
  • Multiple sources indicate that Dave Greenham played
  • Thirteen University players are mentioned in match reports – the five credited with games but not mentioned are Bennett, Hurley, McCracken, Tymms and Wilson
  • “Hinman” is mentioned but with no initial – both Hinmans are credited with playing
  • Reports list changes as Lyons, McGillicuddy and Shelley included for Denehy, Kerr and Tait
  • George Elliott (capt) was also an inclusion – Jim Nicholas and Dave Greenham are also omissions in the official record

On the Friday after the Rd 13 match The Argus reported that “The University cup of sorrow is not yet full. A. Hinman is down with influenza, and none of the invalids are able to resume duty. W. Hinman will take his brother's place. The students are having a bad time this year. The path of the amateur is not strewn with roses.”

This suggests to me that W. Hinman did not play in Rd 13 (consistent with the march reports referring to “Hinman” with no initial) and I suggest he probably did not play in Rd 12 either given explicit listing of changes between these games. Both Hinmans are mentioned in the Australasian report for Rd 11.

Further searching for Hinman on Trove also turned up that in Rd 9 against Geelong, the Geelong Advertiser reported that A. Hinman replaced his brother in the side that day (currently W. Hinman is credited with this game as well) note: The Argus report gets this the wrong way round (saying W. J. Hinman replaced his brother despite W. Hinman having made his debut the week before)

This is further confirmed by Rd 10 reports that show W. Hinman was an inclusion and this also suggests that W. Hinman should be credited with a goal in this game rather than A. Hinman

So proposed changes are:
  1. 1911 Rd 9 – A. Hinman played rather than W. Hinman
  2. 1911 Rd 10 – W. Hinman to be credited with goal rather than A. Hinman
  3. 1911 Rd 12 – A. Tait played rather than W. Hinman
  4. 1911 Rd 13 – D. Greenham played rather than W. Hinman
 
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There seems to be a good chance that the official records have it wrong with Ken McKenzie/Alex MacKenzie for St Kilda in the 1911 Rd. 13 & 14 teams. Both were in the Rd. 12 (official) side, but only Ken was named in the team for the next two games.

The Argus said of the Rd. 13 lineup: Hunt, Parker, and Lowenstern took the places of Ryan, Goddard, and K. M'Kenzie in the St. Kilda team.
The Australasian: Ryan, Goddard, and K. M'Kenzie were absent from the local eighteen, and their places, were filled by Hunt, Lowenstern, and Parker.

The Herald named A. McKenzie (but not K. McKenzie) in the squad for the Rd. 14 game.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1911/061519110715.html
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1911/111519110722.html

There's nothing much else to go on, as The Herald (Trove) for those two Saturday's doesn't have the football coverage. More info is needed!!
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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