Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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RICHMOND PREPARES FOR BIG GAME - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 22 Jul 1941

Richmond is so concerned at its slide from first to third, on percentages, caused by 2 successive defeats, that officials have called players to a ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au
1583751624458.png
This refers to the Rd. 12 game. The Herald and Sporting Globe usually mention substitutions and don't say anything for this game, so he probably stayed on the bench.

This is interesting, as it refers to the next week's game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/181709181
1583751867475.png

Looks like he didn't make the final lineup: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8194620
1583752894073.png
 
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Yep. this is becoming clearer now.
R Quinn's only game in 1941 was as 19th man. Never took the field. The following week he was perhaps going to play and take the field (for the first time in two years) but the ear injury means he wasn't selected.

I've just gone through Bill White's 8 games on AFLTables, and his first game , Rd 1 1941, he was 19th Man, and never took the field. He took the field for all his other matches.
Hence, that's why the RFC AR only put him down as 7 games. So White's 8 is correct. I'll tick that one off as all good.

Edit: Hull's 17 games checks out. 16 on AR plus one as 19th man (did not take the field. )
 
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In Rd 1 1970, Richmond played Fitzroy, and The Queen unfurled the flag.

A) I've never seen footage or a photo of the Queen actually physically unfurling the flag Its always images before that moment or after.
B) The crowd on AFLTABLES is 38,617. The Canberra Times reports there was an estimated 80,000 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article107917841
That's a fair different in reporting. The Footy Record Rd 2 says there was 38,617. So I guess will go with that unless there's something to say otherwise
Footage of the game does seem to show a thin crowd behind one of the goals, but also large crowds along the wings etc https://www.lions.com.au/video/2052...dal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1430976745001
 

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rbartlett said:
In Rd 1 1970, Richmond played Fitzroy, and The Queen unfurled the flag.

A) I've never seen footage or a photo of the Queen actually physically unfurling the flag Its always images before that moment or after.
B) The crowd on AFLTABLES is 38,617. The Canberra Times reports there was an estimated 80,000 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article107917841
That's a fair different in reporting. The Footy Record Rd 2 says there was 38,617. So I guess will go with that unless there's something to say otherwise
Footage of the game does seem to show a thin crowd behind one of the goals, but also large crowds along the wings etc https://www.lions.com.au/video/2052...dal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1430976745001
Click to expand...
I think someone just got carried away with that estimate in The Canberra Times! The Age has it at 38,000 in a couple of articles, and 38,617 here:
1583835767584.png
 
Looks like there is a change to be made to the umpire of Rd 2 1919 Coll vs StKilda.
Jack Elder is listed as umpire, but this entry in Footy Record clearly shows the morning of the match influenza prevented him from umpiring and Wally Naismith took over.
1584010128434.png

Updaye: David Flegg, Umpire Historian advised me "this was a known known so the numbers stay the same but we have not been able to identify who replaced Wally’s boundary appointment.
 
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Stephen Rodgers has sent me a large handwritten parcel detailing all the agreed changes/outstanding changes from our 220 line spreadsheet.
Its a huge document.
So its going to take me a while to go through each one, but I'll colour code on the spreadsheet what has been changed. Green meaning all changes/confirmed by AFL. Yellow - under investigation, need more research. Red = denied.

Also if its possible to withhold from sending Stephen anything directly during this season, as the whole uncertainty of the 2020 season etc means he simply wont have time look at anything until after the GF (whenever that is). So any potential changes just flag with me and I'll whack it on the spreadsheet.

If at any point however you come across the details of entry 66 on the spreadsheet, Watson / Abe "Duckie" Watson (as called by Pennings) - the unknown 1898 player for Essendon then advise and I'll show to SR.
 
35Daicos said:
Charles William Samuel Tuck according to this. I don't know where the Peter (or the Wally) comes into it?:

View attachment 808356
View attachment 808355

W. Tuck is mentioned here as being on the committee at Camberwell FC: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2058369 (1925)
====================================================================================
This is a list of phone (?) subscribers at Cobram: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165208939 (27 Mar 1924)
View attachment 808361
That's a bit confusing!

There's plenty of mention of Walter S. Tuck of Cobram to be found. Here, he and his wife have a baby in 1917: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1629593
Same again in 1920 (so perhaps a different person?): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4581686

^ Seems to be this chap:
View attachment 808365
May have been a cousin of the footballer?
Click to expand...
 
My grand father Wally Tuck (walter ernest Tuck 1897-1986) mentioned played for Xavier college then St kilda, and played , was captain coach, president and then honorary secretary for camberwell.. possibly related to the other mentioned Tuck as Wal's family were confectioners.
 
Me73 said:
My grand father Wally Tuck (walter ernest Tuck 1897-1986) mentioned played for Xavier college then St kilda, and played , was captain coach, president and then honorary secretary for camberwell.. possibly related to the other mentioned Tuck as Wal's family were confectioners.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that.

Was it definitely 1986, or 1983 (aged 86) when your grandfather died?
1584791099011.png

Australian Football - Wally Tuck - Player Bio

australianfootball.com australianfootball.com

Wally Tuck - Wikiwand

Wally Tuck was an Australian rules footballer who played with St Kilda in the Victorian Football League (VFL).
www.wikiwand.com
 
FYI -
A meeting was recently held with AFL History & Stats Department, Russell Holmesby and Collingwood Archives regarding some recent sample review work Collingwood had done which highlighted potential differences and discrepancies in matches played and goals allocated to individual players in official records. From the sample data reviewed (sample years in 1920s-30s) there may have been a massive impact on the historical records for 12 Melbourne based clubs and current representatives in the Australian Football Heritage Group. Stephen Rodgers also included the BigFooty list of issues raised by Rhett. We wanted to understand how VFL/AFL official records had been derived to date and what sources were given priority in recognizing match/goal stats.

Russell gave a potted history of how he and Graeme Atkinson as teenagers, had transcribed the Campbell Records by hand (as the bequest stipulated no copying or reproduction in any form), being mentored by Norm Sowden and their access to his historical collection, the evolution of Cec Mullen records and debunking some of those records, the Percy Taylor records which gave a lot of information on DOB, height and weight characteristics of players from older era's. Col and Stephen also gave an account of official records in VFL/AFL office and how these had evolved over time, in line largely with the research by Russell, Graeme and Stephen for various publications.

One of the main outcomes discussed was the accuracy of games/goals allocated to individuals. It was agreed that any corrections on games allocated to individual players would continue to be a priority and corrections pursued with intent where possible. Goals allocated to individuals was agreed to be much lower priority and given the widely varied reporting of details, goals corrections would not be pursued (only where there was incontrovertible evidence which promoted a correction). The weight of numbers (ie 4 papers say A, 2 papers says B, therefore A must be the result) was not a reasonable argument on its own.

I am just waiting confirmation of minutes of the meeting, which included a summary of the way current official stats have been developed over time and the validity/priority of sources used. Once the guys are back on deck in the AFL office and we have progressed on the meeting outcomes I will update BF forum as this may impact the research done here.
 
Snidely Whiplash said:
FYI -
A meeting was recently held with AFL History & Stats Department, Russell Holmesby and Collingwood Archives regarding some recent sample review work Collingwood had done which highlighted potential differences and discrepancies in matches played and goals allocated to individual players in official records. From the sample data reviewed (sample years in 1920s-30s) there may have been a massive impact on the historical records for 12 Melbourne based clubs and current representatives in the Australian Football Heritage Group. Stephen Rodgers also included the BigFooty list of issues raised by Rhett. We wanted to understand how VFL/AFL official records had been derived to date and what sources were given priority in recognizing match/goal stats.

Russell gave a potted history of how he and Graeme Atkinson as teenagers, had transcribed the Campbell Records by hand (as the bequest stipulated no copying or reproduction in any form), being mentored by Norm Sowden and their access to his historical collection, the evolution of Cec Mullen records and debunking some of those records, the Percy Taylor records which gave a lot of information on DOB, height and weight characteristics of players from older era's. Col and Stephen also gave an account of official records in VFL/AFL office and how these had evolved over time, in line largely with the research by Russell, Graeme and Stephen for various publications.

One of the main outcomes discussed was the accuracy of games/goals allocated to individuals. It was agreed that any corrections on games allocated to individual players would continue to be a priority and corrections pursued with intent where possible. Goals allocated to individuals was agreed to be much lower priority and given the widely varied reporting of details, goals corrections would not be pursued (only where there was incontrovertible evidence which promoted a correction). The weight of numbers (ie 4 papers say A, 2 papers says B, therefore A must be the result) was not a reasonable argument on its own.

I am just waiting confirmation of minutes of the meeting, which included a summary of the way current official stats have been developed over time and the validity/priority of sources used. Once the guys are back on deck in the AFL office and we have progressed on the meeting outcomes I will update BF forum as this may impact the research done here.
Click to expand...

This is impactful, but also important to clear up at an official level. A few q's:
  • Are those minutes allowed to be shared with us at BF? They may help out a fair few of us.
  • Is there a roadmap of what the AFL History & Stats Dept are researching currently/planning to in future, so us as volunteer amateur researchers can figure out what best to prioritise?
  • When will Collingwood Forever be updated with post-2016 stats?

Thanks,
Gibbsy
 

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In a length letter to me Stephen Rodgers does mention that significant work done at Collingwood for goalkickers in the 1930.
In part he wrote that "the rationale being, if we were going to change this one year (1936) so extensively, we should do all Collingwood years of this era the same way, then we should do all clubs of this era the same way, for however many years going forward and back". And that that wasn't something they were going to do.

I know some potential goalkicking queries impact famous players at Collingwood, and the way I read this letter, those changes wont happen because, as Snidely says, some newspapers say one tally, and other say another. So best to leave it as is.
 
Regarding Richmond's research etc.
Our stance on changing records is simply a case by case process. If evidence shows something should change, then it does.
There's not an official process in place regarding changes. At the moment it seems to be, a Richmond related change comes to me, I (we) research it, if deemed to be changed, I send to AFL SR. I do also make the club's history and traditions committee aware of it if I deem it a significant change. If not, I simply make a record of it (ie: Richmond's 1909 q2 score has changed) and advised the committee at a later date in an email.
Atm the coronoavirus is obviously shutting down the club (my role is on hold atm), so I may have a backlog to show them later.
 
Working through Rodgers correspondence to me.
I'll say this firstly.
If we recommend a change to the AFL, and we don't recommend what new information should go in there = they wont do the change.
(ie: if we say remove player xxxx, and we don't yet who the new player is, they will leave the records as be). Whether you agree with it or not, that's their stance at the moment. Okay.

Whoever is our Wikipedia person, can the below be updated.

entry 213: Alec Moffatt becomes Arnold Hastie Moffitt b: 12 Dec 1883, death is 19/7/1963. They note he is also listed as Arnold Hasty Moffat, though in Springvale he is listed as Arnold Hastie Moffitt, which they will go with (and in their 'remarks' column will put also known as Moffat)

entry 216: Alex Sinclair - his death date is now 25/8/1962

entry 208: John William Stephenson dod is 3/4/1963. They are waiting for exact BDM from their BDM contact

entry 207: James Robert McFarlane - dod is 21/5/1960 as per AFL. They explain how they came across that in a lengthy email to me which I can pass on if anyone cares to know. In short, they believe that bdm 22675 is him - that being the death of ROBERT JAMES MCFARLANE in 1960 aged 84 at Frankston. With his birth being in BALRANALD. SR queries if we should call him Bob rather than Jim, but I suspect we leave as Jim.

Okay
I have updated the spreadsheet responses of 197 - 220 in GREEN.
Ignore all other entries at the moment, I'm drip feeding them to you so you are not overwhelmed.
Can *Paul* , WhiteHartLane23 the croucher Gibbsy Snidely Whiplash 35Daicos Oliver Gigacz and anyone else I've missed please look at the spreadsheet back on page 1 and read entries 197- 220 (highlighted in green) and update any of their record/programs where it applies
 
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rbartlett said:
Working through Rodgers correspondence to me.
I'll say this firstly.
If we recommend a change to the AFL, and we don't recommend what new information should go in there = they wont do the change.
(ie: if we say remove player xxxx, and we don't yet who the new player is, they will leave the records as be). Whether you agree with it or not, that's their stance at the moment. Okay.

Whoever is our Wikipedia person, can the below be updated.

entry 213: Alec Moffatt becomes Arnold Hastie Moffitt b: 12 Dec 1883, death is 19/7/1963. They note he is also listed as Arnold Hasty Moffat, though in Springvale he is listed as Arnold Hastie Moffitt, which they will go with (and in their 'remarks' column will put also known as Moffat)

entry 216: Alex Sinclair - his death date is now 25/8/1962

entry 208: John William Stephenson dod is 3/4/1963. They are waiting for exact BDM from their BDM contact

entry 207: James Robert McFarlane - dod is 21/5/1960 as per AFL. They explain how they came across that in a lengthy email to me which I can pass on if anyone cares to know. In short, they believe that bdm 22675 is him - that being the death of ROBERT JAMES MCFARLANE in 1960 aged 84 at Frankston. With his birth being in BALRANALD. SR queries if we should call him Bob rather than Jim, but I suspect we leave as Jim.

Okay
I have updated the spreadsheet responses of 197 - 220 in GREEN.
Ignore all other entries at the moment, I'm drip feeding them to you so you are not overwhelmed.
Can *Paul* , WhiteHartLane23 the croucher Gibbsy Snidely Whiplash 35Daicos Oliver Gigacz and anyone else I've missed please look at the spreadsheet back on page 1 and read entries 197- 220 (highlighted in green) and update any of their record/programs where it applies
Click to expand...

Thanks Rhett, AF has been updated. Just a quick question regarding 198.

entry 198: Have we got confirmation of R2/3 or just for R1?
 
Gibbsy said:
This is impactful, but also important to clear up at an official level. A few q's:
  • Are those minutes allowed to be shared with us at BF? They may help out a fair few of us.
  • Is there a roadmap of what the AFL History & Stats Dept are researching currently/planning to in future, so us as volunteer amateur researchers can figure out what best to prioritise?
  • When will Collingwood Forever be updated with post-2016 stats?

Thanks,
Gibbsy
Click to expand...
1. I am waiting on feedback on the draft minutes but everyone is in lockdown so not holding my breath. I am sure they will allow me to share the outcomes, as the work being done on this Forum was recognized and valued by the meeting participants.

One of the important missing links however was that of the official club position on these changes and how they might be engaged as an approval step before it reaches AFL.

This would act as a filter for AFL office and engages the Clubs in owning more of their history. Each Club is resourced differently and has different levels of priority so perhaps a debate for the future when we are back to a reasonable environment.

2. Their priority will always be the publishing deadline for the Season Guide and how much they can get done for that.
I suggest the work being done here on missing DOB DOD is a priority for them and the ongoing corrections that are on the BF running list is still regarded as offering the most value.
But I will raise this specifically to see if there is anything else, without trying to overlap the correspondence with Rhett on the BF List.

3. Collingwood Forever had always had trouble with updates for a couple of reasons. A) the old website was created under AFL ownership and we were not allowed to publish anything more recent than 3 years due to their contractual arrangements. B) the IT structure of the old site originally built by AFL was not change friendly and required complete table changes at the back end which we were not resourced to do.

The new CFC website means these impediments have been significantly reduced and up until the COVID staff shutdowns, we were working on updates. Probably won't have a revised forecast until we get some staff back on the decks (and whether that is going to be the same people)?

Gibbsy said:
This is impactful, but also important to clear up at an official level. A few q's:
  • Are those minutes allowed to be shared with us at BF? They may help out a fair few of us.
  • Is there a roadmap of what the AFL History & Stats Dept are researching currently/planning to in future, so us as volunteer amateur researchers can figure out what best to prioritise?
  • When will Collingwood Forever be updated with post-2016 stats?

Thanks,
Gibbsy
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Snidely. That contractual thing blows my mind. But appreciate your feedback never the less. Looking forward to everyone hopefully getting back on board when this all blows over :)
 
This colour footage was uploaded recently to YouTube.
It is labelled as May 15th 1954 Richmond vs Melbourne.


But if I reconcile it against the League's match day stat it doesn't quite match.
I spot Number 11, Number 12, and Number 17 (in the background) for Richmond. But No 12, or 17 played that day https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1954/111419540515.html

Now even if Im misreading No. 17, that definitely looks like Number 12 in the footage.
I have the footy record here for the game and No. 12 is Kevin Hogan. But he only played 1952-1953 for Richmond.
Obviously its possible there are wrong numbers on AFLTables. But at the moment either the video is labelled wrong, or theres guernsey change in Richmond history.
 
rbartlett said:
This colour footage was uploaded recently to YouTube.
It is labelled as May 15th 1954 Richmond vs Melbourne.


But if I reconcile it against the League's match day stat it doesn't quite match.
I spot Number 11, Number 12, and Number 17 (in the background) for Richmond. But No 12, or 17 played that day https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1954/111419540515.html

Now even if Im misreading No. 17, that definitely looks like Number 12 in the footage.
I have the footy record here for the game and No. 12 is Kevin Hogan. But he only played 1952-1953 for Richmond.
Obviously its possible there are wrong numbers on AFLTables. But at the moment either the video is labelled wrong, or theres guernsey change in Richmond history.
Click to expand...

Hogan played in the Reserves that day: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23434721
1585318361911.png
The Sporting Globe has the same lineup as AFL Tables:
1585318893398.png

The AFL Historical Statistics website had these players wearing those jumper numbers (at senior level) that season:
1585318762227.png
Dummett also played in the Reserves, while it seems neither Bradley nor McGown played in the senior team against Melbourne. Bit of a mystery, then!
 
GreyCrow said:
He is one I am looking at for an inaccuracy regarding the person named as his brother in AF

I dont think he is who the records say he is
Click to expand...
rbartlett said:
Well I'm made contact with Alan's daughter earlier in the week. And I told her we are missing death details of Alan's brother Jim. She said she will try to locate them. (Haven't heard back from her as to whether she knows what Alan was doing in 1942)
Click to expand...
Having a look this morning and I have a concern

If we accept Alan Joseph McDonald is born 1918 ( and we do )

McDONALD Alan Joseph Birth
<Unknown Family Name>, Mary Agnes CANTWELL
<Unknown Family Name>, Howard Seaver

YARRAM 1918 24161/1918

AF has Jim McDonald born in 1916 - yet there is no matching record of a James/Jim McDonald born to the above couple.

But we then find

MCDONALD Wm David Birth
<Unknown Family Name>, Mary Agnes CANTWELL
<Unknown Family Name>, Howard Seaver

YARRAM YARRAM 1916 25868/1916

Looking at his War service record

NameMCDONALD, WILLIAM DAVID
ServiceAustralian Army
Service NumberVX90923 (V39732)
Date of Birth05 Jun 1916
Place of BirthYARRAM, VIC
And AF lists James Kenneth as 24 June 1916


ie the birth date for Jim must be different . I am happy ( for now) to concede a birth after 1920 for Jim

Added: I do think the DOB is wrong - I do agree the relationship still exists

1585370544325.png

In the notice for Howard Sievers ( in Birth notice as Seaver) we have Donald , James , Mary, William and Alan

If we use these names we find this

MCDONALD Jas Wm Birth
<Unknown Family Name>, Mary Agnes CANTWELL
<Unknown Family Name>, Howard Seaver

ARARAT 1913 18046/1913


MCDONALD James William Death

<Unknown Family Name>, Mary Agnes CANTWELL
<Unknown Family Name>, MCDONALD Howard Sevier

Born Bendigo
Died Meeniyan

71 1984 25261/1984

More investigation needed but is it the same person and is a change needed? (yes)
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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