Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

His wiki needs to be updated please

Jack O'Connell played for Williamstown & South Melbourne in the early 1920s

This article and BDM records identify him as John Kerion O'Connell born Winchelsea to John Kerion O'Connell, Sr. and Margaret Anne Hannon
Currently australianfooball.com & wikipedia (and hence probably AFL) have his death as 24 Aug 1975

A John William O'Connell did die on 24 August 1975, but death notices from 1975 show actual date of death of the footballer was 20 May 1975

Summary: Change date of death for Jack O'Connell from 24 August 1975 to 20 May 1975

 

[rbartlett]

Just posting this info from SR in his email response.

Please update if required on Wiki, AFLTables, and AF Oliver G

Collingwood amendments as advised by Phil Taranto (on Feb 14th.)


Goals amendments

1956 Round 7
Weideman 2 (not 3)
Davidson 1 (not 0)

1956 Round 15
K.Turner 1 (not 0)
Davidson 0 (not 1)

1963 Round 18
Waters 2 (not 1)
Chapman 2 (not 3)

1964 Round 1
Waters 1 (not 2)
Norman 3 (not 2)


Dates-of-birth amendments

Wes McGaw 6 - 6 - 50
not 6 - 3 - 51

Ray Riddell 26 - 3 - 18
not 26 - 3 - 19


Eric **** 1 - 7 - 02
not 30 - 6 - 02

Con McCormack 25 - 11 - 77
not 25 - 12 - 77


Jumper number

Round 3 1958
Eddie Millar wore 43; not 21


Family

Frank and Joe Plant are brothers

Charlie Rowe (Foots.) and Paddy Rowan (Percy Rowe) are brothers

Ross Fisher (Melb '84) is the grandson of Gordon Davie (Coll '24)

Bill Duckworth, debut 1943, weight is now 78 (as advised by the family)

Parkinson G.J.F. now known as Frank rather than Fred

 

[rbartlett]

SR assumes this is an unresolved entry - as there was no summary. So no change has been made.
For your reference he has provided this information from afl's archives.

Morley
Campbell sheet:
Arthur Morley for '30; A.Morley for '31

Sowdon sheets:
He's called Arthur Morley

Clearance book:
couldn't see him, to North;
then:
W.Morley, North to Prahran in '32

Arthur Morley is credited as playing 5 games for North Melbourne in 1930-31 and served in Army in WWII.

From published DOB/DOD he can be identified as

Full name: Arthur Frederick Morley
Date of birth: 17 January 1908
Place of birth: North Fremantle, Western Australia
Date of death: 14 December 1977
Place of death: Glen Iris, Victoria

However, Arthur Frederick Morley seems to have lived in Western Australia until about 1960 (he is reported as getting traffic fines in Perth in 1930 and 1932) and I can see no evidence of him being in Victoria before 1960. Also when looking at Trove all references I can see to the footballer are to a W. “Bill” Morley - so it seems likely we have a mis-identified player here.

“Bill Morley” from South Districts is stated as being in the North Melbourne side in Sept 1930 – the one game he is credited with in 1930

Morley started with S.M. District team in 1930 – described as a first year player here
Won Most improved player in 1930 season

Seemingly incorrectly described as being from West Melbourne (given earlier refs) in early 1931 - South Districts still claiming him as one of theirs in May 1931 in this article

Then W. Morley moved to Prahran in 1932 - see VFA Project playing record

Then in 1933 W. Morley moved to West Melbourne in the Sub-District Association

My guess is we are looking for a William Morley, born about 1910 whose family were somewhere around South Melbourne in 1930 - but I haven't found a good candidate yet. Any identification help would be greatly appreciated.... and I know some of you love a good research project (Alternatively some evidence the current record is correct would set me straight)

 

[rbartlett]

SR has decided not to make any chance regarding Jack Patterson.
He provides this evidence from afl records

Patterson
Campbell sheet:
John Patterson at South '31
North '32: J.Paterson
North '34: J.Patterson
North '35: J.Patterson

Sowdon sheets:
He's called Jack Patterson
Clearances:
can't see him coming to South;
J.Paterson South to North in '32
J.Paterson North to Willy in '36
(frustratingly no middle initial!)

ABC records - by Percy Taylor
North '34
Jack Patterson
North '35
Jack Patterson d.o.b. 27 - 5 - 11

"So, Percy Taylor started to keep Campbell-like sheets, initially from the era he was a player himself, starting a few years before that debut, when as a youngster in his teenage years he must have been interested in it, eventually did it from '34 to '74.
Initially with just the names; then, gradually, with d-o-b's, and after a while, everyone's d-o-b. So, dumbing this down, to abbreviate, North have basically told him: Jack Patterson is our '35 player, with that d-o-b.
(He couldn't have got the info any other way, we feel.) So we better stick with 27 - 5 - 11, for the time being...)

So if Wiki, AFLT, or AustFoot has different info, best to change it/leave it as above.

Jack Patterson played for South Melbourne (1931), North Melbourne (1932-36) and then Williamstown (1937-40).

Currently recorded as having date of birth 28 May 1911 and date of death 27 October 1994.

These dates match John Patrick Patterson, son of Patrick James Patterson and Bridget Kenny, born in Cobram (see service record) and died in Wodonga according to Ancestry trees

Unfortunately in all 1930s electoral rolls John Patrick Patterson is living in Cobram and searching on Trove it appears he was a footballer – but playing for Strathmerton in the Murray League with his brother James Joseph Patterson (b 1913)
The player has been mis-identified and current DOB/DOD in football sources are incorrect.

The VFL/VFA footballer Jack Patterson

• Joined South Melb from SM District in 1931 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164965476
• Was a first year player for SM District in 1930 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164969950
• Moved to North Melb in 1932 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242797422
• Missed 1933 with a broken leg http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article243310086
• Moved to Williamstown in 1936 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11031867
• Premiership winner in 1939 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article180248885

This article shows in 1946 he was married to a Mrs M. Patterson.

Also this article shows marriage was before 1943.

My current best guess is John Henry Patterson – son of Robert Baron Patterson and Ada Woolley, born 17 Dec 1912 in Port Melbourne, died 21 March 1996, married Lila May Wilson in 1938.

…but he seems to live in South Melbourne / Armadale / Malvern - it would have been a fair commute to North/Williamstown for 8 years so not convinced this is right

 

[rbartlett]

SR's reply regarding the Jack Frost.

No change has been made of any type...


"On the original Campbell 1897 Carlton sheet, he is just R.Frost.

In the 1948 Hugh Buggy Carlton book, he is
Frost, R. ("Jack").

Actually, I can vaguely remember - going back 30 to 35 years, when I was trying to do "everyone" from scratch, with basically only the Pioneers Index, at the Library (and we had about 5,000 d-o-b's outstanding; that's when it all started! That, in itself, is crazy!) I had no idea who this was; that's probably why he's in as the person he is now! "

More trouble with the early VFL records, I fear. Online listings for the Carlton players in the inaugural VFL season of 1897 have a Jack Frost identified with DOB 29 Dec 1870 and DOD 8 Jul 1935. Ancestry family trees indicate these are the life span dates for a Robert William Frost, son of Charles and Sarah (nee Fisk).
His birth was registered in the “Egli” [not sure what that stands for] district of Victoria (#13/1871)

There are three older siblings born in Vic, but his five younger siblings are born in NSW, a number of births and later deaths of family members occurring in or near Parkes, NSW.

RW marries Ida Florence Ward on 15 March 1899, in the Parkes reg district, and a large family arrives over the years, all being born in that town. RW Frost died in Parkes district on 8 July 1935.

All that I’ve seen so far suggests that at a very young age RW Frost moved to country NSW with his family and spent most if not all of his remaining life in or near the Parkes district.

Therefore, in my opinion, the Frost who plays for Carlton in 1897 is an entirely different (and as yet unidentified) person. Would be interested in thoughts of others about this matter.

 

[rbartlett]

Okay everyone.
Part 1 of SR's review (which covers a handful of pages from last year or so) has been posted.
(Keep in mind he sent 7 pages of replies so as to break up all the feedback)

Remember now, I'm only posting his rejections (that's my wording) / or no changes on this thread. If I dont post it it means the AFL has accepted the change.

Basically his Email 1 feedback reply is covered in my posts on page 143 and 144 of this thread .
Overall everything is good apart some things that we have missed updating. And a couple of rejections/no changes.

If you have feedback about any of those, park them to one side perhaps and probably best to hold off until I post all the rejections/no changes.

 

[Bandit55]

In response to WHL’s post of a while back, it seems clear that Dave Bowen (14 March 1886 – 2 August 1946) is not the South Melbourne footballer.

His wiki page is correct that he joined South Melbourne from Subiaco in April 1908, but it appears that he did not return to WA as suggested.

He quickly transferred from South Melbourne to Fitzroy Juniors in July 1908:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242919195?searchTerm=fitzroy juniors

He continued to play for Fitzroy Juniors in 1909 and was their captain in 1910:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242058409?searchTerm=fitzroy juniors

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242082237?searchTerm=fitzroy juniors

He then got a permit from South Melbourne in April 1911 to play with Leopold:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196193092?searchTerm=bowen south melbourne

He continued to play for Leopold in 1912 and it appears that he moved to Caulfield District c1914:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/166232822?searchTerm=fitzroy juniors

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/92143569?searchTerm=dave bowen

Then in May 1915 he got a permit from South Melbourne to play for Prahran:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1514792?searchTerm=bowen south melbourne

According to the Sporting Globe, he was living in Simpson Street, Northcote in 1942:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/180308504?searchTerm=dave bowen

Although this article embellishes his VFL career and some of the dates seem to be incorrect, it confirms that he did not return to live in WA and was still alive in 1950:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/84485777?searchTerm=dave bowen

Therefore, it appears more likely that the footballer is David Alexander Bowen (b. Ballarat 1887 – 1 October 1961):





Summary correct the identity of Dave Bowen to David Alexander Bowen (b. Ballarat c1887 – d. 1 October 1961)

 

[stemline]

Bumping this one from a few years ago.
With the Sun now digitised on Trove- does that perhaps tell us who coached the two teams on Rd 13 1949. Is someone able to check please?

At the very least, Dyer and Albiston would need to be removed as coach on that round as they were playing for Vic in NSW at the time of the match.

This was addressed from a Hawthorn perspective - Neil Pearson was captain/coach for that game. Confirmed by Peter Haby/Hawks Museum. It's somewhere in this thread.

Edit - sorry, i missed there was a new page of this thread where you've asked us to hold off replying.

 

[Supermercado]

I know matchday stats are notoriously tricky, but I've just seen the Age 04/09/2000 numbers for the Grand Final and they deviate from the figures usually seen.



For obvious reasons I won't be going back and watching in full to see who's right, but compared to the AFL Tables data:

Essendon
Kicks - same
Marks - two less
Handballs - seven more
Disposals - seven more
Tackles - six less
Free kicks - same
Hitouts - three more
Inside 50s - two more

Melbourne
Kicks - nine less
Marks - two less
Handballs - 12 more (!)
Disposals - nine more
Tackles - 21 more (!!!!)
Free kicks - same
Hitouts - four more
Inside 50s - same

The biggest winner is Ben Beams, who can thank IQ Stats for trying to save him from the generally held belief that he didn't get a touch.

Anyone have the stats as printed in Herald Sun or another paper to give a clue as to whether these numbers could be valid?

 

[stemline]

Here are the Champion Data numbers from that match...

Can I ask where these are sourced from? I notice the breakdown of CB and Stoppage Clearances... I didn't think these were available pre-2012.

 

[Supermercado]

Here are the Champion Data numbers from that match, there are a couple of kick and free kick changes from what's on AF and Tables but otherwise, they are the same.

By 2000 Champion Data had the AFL licence, so I imagine these would be considered the official stats for the match. Tackle definitions differ from company to company which is why there is likely such a discrepancy between the two.

A rewatch of the match is probably needed to confirm if Beams did get a touch.

View attachment 2009487

Thanks for this, I might subject myself to the final quarter one day just for Beams Watch.

 

[Oliver G]

Thanks for this, I might subject myself to the final quarter one day just for Beams Watch.

It looks like he did get a kick (video is cued up), a fumbled mark followed by a snap to rush a behind. So it was either missed by the CD callers or it's not counted as a kick by their definition as he was rushing a behind. Personally I'd call it a kick.

 

[rbartlett]

It looks like he did get a kick (video is cued up), a fumbled mark followed by a snap to rush a behind. So it was either missed by the CD callers or it's not counted as a kick by their definition as he was rushing a behind. Personally I'd call it a kick.

It's not a great kick... but its a kick by an definition is it not

 

[Gibbsy]

It's not a great kick... but its a kick by an definition is it not

It's hard to make out, but he appears to collect his little dinky (almost fresh-airy) kick before it passes over the behind line. Would this not then negate the acceptance of the kick as a kick, as A) it didn't go past 10 metres, the required distance at the time, and B) it was gathered by the kicker.

It's all just subjectivity I guess, and I'm sure Beams himself has an opinion, but it makes for a good story.

 

[rbartlett]

*Paul* Oliver G Rd 4 1905 Sharp needs to be changed.

Another team list problem I think.

The Fitzroy list for 1905 Rnd 4 match vs Carlton includes Les Sharp

Australian Football - Match Details: 1905 R4 Carlton vs Fitzroy

australianfootball.com

AFL Tables - Carlton v Fitzroy - Sat, 27-May-1905 3:00 PM - Match Stats

A search of Trove newspapers suggests it should be J "Jim" Sharp included, and Les removed.

Both the team list and match description in The Herald issue on evening of match show J Sharp/Jim Sharp

THE LEAGUE. - CARLTON V, FITZROY FITZROY WINS. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 27 May 1905

It was left to the Fitzroy and Carlton teams to fight off for premiership honors last year, and that battle is still fresh in the minds of the 32,668 people who ...

trove.nla.gov.au

The Australasian review of the match also refers to J Sharp[e] specifically:

FOOTBALL NOTES. - PLAY THE BALL. - The Australasian (Melbourne, Vic. : 1864 - 1946) - 3 Jun 1905

A month ago, when we had seen some of the opening league games, we were filled with pleasureable anticipations of a brilliant and glorious season. But, so far, ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[rbartlett]

Can this be updated on his wiki please

Also his death date seems to a year out - his grave shows death was 1969 rather than 1968

Summary: Change Max Pitchford (NM) to be known as Mac Pitchford with date of death 25 July 1969

 

[rbartlett]

Please update this everywhere

Albert Leslie "Mick" Price (Carlton) is listed as having died on 19 November 1973 (australianfootball.com, blueseum)

The Age death notices from 17 November show actual death date was 15 November 1973
View attachment 1198624

19 November was his burial date at Melbourne General Cemetery
View attachment 1198628

...and his record at Find a Grave is also incorrect - wrong date and name mixed up with that of his father - Albert Edward Price

Summary: Update date of death for Albert Leslie "Mick" Price from 19 November 1973 to 15 November 1973

 

[rbartlett]

SR says "Cooper new d-o-b, and d-o-d noted "

So looks like wiki, *Paul* Oliver G may need updating

I can see just the one 'tree' on Ancestry for him and it has this:
View attachment 1238058
It's pretty certain that the 'tree maker' (Derek Cooper) would be the son of John Kenneth, and he really should have those dates correct.

However, this is interesting!:
View attachment 1238089

 

[rbartlett]

Just out of interest - are the changes when we tag Paul AFLTables in, being changed at all?
Or do we think a lot of them are being missed.

Certainly Aust Foot site is doing updates instantenously

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes
Bennett interestingly (recalling that original date of 13 - 2 - 10), the Melbourne 1936 ABC Records sheet, given to Percy Taylor, has 13 - 2 - 13. (So, that's what Melb thought.)
Maybe we go with that for now, and a death of 26 - 6 - 75 - although these can still be subject to change from further info.

So Wiki, AFLT, and Oliver G youll have to change it

Jack Bennett (Melb) has DOB 13 February 1910 and DOD 17 May 1975 in AFL Tables, australianfootball.com, Encyclopedia, demonwiki

However in 2015 someone (stating they were a family member) changed DOB on wikipedia to 21 February 1913 - this makes sense if the player was Francis Jack Bennett, born to Francis Alex BENNETT and Frances Theresa GRIEVES in 1913 (BDM 3275 / 1913) and Victorian BDM / Probate records show this Francis Jack Bennett died on 26 Jun 1975 (close, but not the exact date of death in current records)

This newspaper article from 1933 states the player was a twenty year old in Aug 1933 which matches the 1913 date.

However existing football record birth/death dates seem to be for Stanley John BENNETT born to John Hugh BENNETT and Jessie PHILLIPS in 1910 and died in May 1975 (cremated on 22 May 1975).

I can't find anything that clearly identifies the player in Trove - can anyone work out who the player really was and if wiki is wrong or football records are wrong?

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes
Reid
with him, we've changed it from Allan to Alan, and changed the d-o-b from 14 - 12, to 4 - 12 - as advised to us by someone at some time, maybe you guys previously, who knows!


So Wiki, AFLT, Oliver G update records

Alan/Allan Reid (Geelong) has a number of discrepancies in details as recorded in different sources:

Wikipedia has him as Alan Reid, DOB 14 Dec 1926
AFL Tables has him as Allan Reid, DOB 14 Dec 1926
Australianfootball.com has him as Alan Reid, DOB 14 Dec 1926
Encyclopedia has him as Alan L Reid, DOB 4 Dec 1926
Harder Than Football has him as Alan Leslie Reid, DOB 4 Dec 1926
WWII Record has him as Allan Leslie Reid, DOB 4 Dec 1926
The few football articles that I could find on Trove that have a given name seem to use Alan e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article23082179
Headstone on his grave has name Alan Leslie Reid
Vic BDM has marriage as Allan Leslie Reid
Electoral Rolls have him as Allan Leslie Reid (mostly living in Drysdale)
Vic BDM has death as Alan Leslie Reid

…difficult to know from all of this what is correct but consistency in football records would be good. It feels like he might have been born as an “Allan” but used/preferred “Alan”? Not sure where the 4th/14th Dec DOB variation comes from… the only official source in the list above is the WWII record but perhaps AFL have date from actual birth certificate?

 

[rbartlett]

Sr writes of Titus dob
Titus
we originally had 3 - 3, and were advised at some point to change it to 9 - 3. (what we have now.)


So leave it at 9/3

Wiki has the great Jack Titus born 9 March 1908

Jack Titus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ancestry shows 3 March 1908 https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/william-john-jack-titus-24-g9lj2n
FindAGrave says 3 March 1908 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/139560075/william-john_(jack)-titus
I think AFL Ency says 3 March 1908

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes regarding the Jack Ross's

Ross
I appreciate this is a difficult one, and I don't still have the email to you of 2 years ago; but from memory, Col was told about the "other Jack Ross" and the English birth.
He is J. in the original Campbell 1919 Geelong sheet (when we originally thought it was the same player, going on to '20), and there's only John in the players' hand-written register. There's no mention of an R.Ross relating to Geelong.

I'd also like to know what made them conclude that the English-born and raised John William Ross was the Geelong 1919 player! Once they decided/heard that was the player's name why didn't they find the chap (with the exact same name) who was born at Geelong, was okay age-wise, and living there in 1919?! He wasn't that hard to find. If they still insist that J. W. 'Jack' Ross has to be the player then they at least should make it the local lad, not someone who almost certainly hadn't been within a thousand miles of this land at that stage of his life!

It really should be Richard/Dick, and I will be rather bemused if the "billiard hall man" doesn't get the nod! Pretty much everything points to him being the player, not John/Jack.

 

[rbartlett]

SR writes

Hammond
I would say, this is one of the many that Russell's friend from BDM gave us.
(when we were doing lists of 30 at a time, for years, to get thru everyone; as you know)
Almost certainly, he would have told us
22 - 11 - 1896.


(So in summary it stays at 22. Nov 1896. )

The records have Collingwood 1921-23 player Tom Hammond with a DOB of 22 November 1896:
View attachment 1338271
It appears that way on Wikipedia, AustralianFootball.com, AFL Tables, and Collingwood Forever.

His birth wasn't registered until 1897:
View attachment 1338288
Several trees on Ancestry have 22 December 1896 as the DOB, and the 1897 birth reg. makes it seem more likely he was born late in 1896:
View attachment 1338294
Most of the Ancestry trees just have 1897, but none have 22 November 1896. Proving this either way may be very difficult, but I would at least like to know where the AFL got their DOB from!
=======================================================================================================================
Just a minor one for Oliver Gigacz , as AustralianFootball.com doesn't have this:
John 'Jiggy' Harris (Collingwood, Hawthorn) and Stan Harris (Richmond, Footscray) were brothers. Wikipedia already has it:
View attachment 1338628
A check of BDM confirms the two have the same parents.
View attachment 1338635

 

[rbartlett]

Update wiki please

The game's records have this chap playing for Fitzroy in 1908:
View attachment 1340777
I think they have the wrong person, and that it's very likely the player was:
View attachment 1340778
He was known as Egbert (Bert), presumably because his father was also James:
View attachment 1340793

View attachment 1340794
Bert Thorpe played with Collingwood District (Collingwood's unofficial reserves team at the time) for many years:
View attachment 1340796
It would be very surprising if that wasn’t the player who played senior football with Fitzroy in 1908. I think the AFL chaps may have picked the wrong James!! Thorpe played for Fitzroy 2 May and 13 June 1908. Bert Thorpe plays the 1909 Rd. 1 game for CD (Collingwood District) on May 1st, just a couple of days after J. E. Thorpe joined from Fitzroy, and stays in the team pretty much from then on. So I’m sure J. E. Thorpe and Bert Thorpe will be the same person! We have Thorpe playing 3 games in 1907, but (this is where it gets tricky!) also 1 game in 1908. That’s a Rd. 5 game, played on 30 May. So did he leave CD for Fitzroy at the start of 1908 (or even during 1907), return briefly, head back to Fitzroy soon after, then go back to CD at the start of the following year?! I think he must have, but it does seem strange! That’s about the only doubt I have with this.

He lived with his parents at North Fitzroy around the time he played for Fitzroy:
View attachment 1340803
The family had been living at that address for quite a few years.
View attachment 1340822
===============================View attachment 1340823
When he made his Fitzroy debut the four "main" papers said he was from Clifton Hill:
View attachment 1340810
Clifton Hill is very close to North Fitzroy, so perhaps they mean the area rather than the football club. There's an E. Thorpe in a 1906 Spensley Street Methodist FC team photo. There's also a D. Thorpe, and Egbert/Bert had a younger brother, Daniel. Spensley Street is at Clifton Hill. A significant number of the players in that team photo went on to play for Collingwood District, with Jack Edgley and (almost certainly) Bert Thorpe playing for CD and at senior level with Fitzroy. At Fitzroy he played on the wing, at CD he usually played as a centreman:
View attachment 1340833
This does suggest Thorpe was quite well known at the time he played his first game of 1909 for CD:
View attachment 1340843

If anyone has anything to add please do so! While I know for sure James Egbert Thorpe was living in the perfect spot (Fitzroy area) in 1908, I'd like to know where James Lyell Thorpe was by then, but haven't found him. By 1914 (when he enlisted) he seems to have been living in NSW, and spent the rest of his days there. By 1905 his parents and three siblings were living in Lyttelton New Zealand, but it doesn't look as if he was with them.