Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[stemline]

1989 Rnd 17 NM v Haw - North Melbourne behind correction

All references have North's Andrew Krakouer kicking no behinds in this game with 3 Rushed for North.

Per below video, A.Krakouer kicks 1 behind in this game. All other scores align, but there's only 2 rushed for North. As there's no commentary or score graphics, I've added enough footage to establish he's wearing 53, which proves this is 1989 R17. He kicks North's 22nd behind.



Summary -

1989 Rnd 17 NM v Haw - Andrew Krakouer plus 1 behind, Rushed for North Melb minus 1 behind.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Death date for Ben Baxter (Ess) is recorded as 6 Feb 1934
His grave shows actual death date was 30 Jan 1934 - not sure where 6 Feb came from as 1 Feb was the burial date

Summary: Death date for Ben Baxter is 30 Jan 1934 (rather than 6 Feb 1934)
Oliver G

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Death date for Bert Hall (Geelong) is recorded as 10 Feb 1968
His grave shows actual death date was 9 Feb 1968 - link contains a clear photo of the grave marker

Summary: Death date for Bert Hall is 9 Feb 1968 (rather than 10 Feb 1968)
Oliver G

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Death date for John Hurley (Geelong) is recorded as 14 Jul 1972
Geelong Cemetery Trust and Find a Grave shows actual death date was 10 Jul 1972 - burial date was 14 July

Summary: Death date for John Hurley is 10 Jul 1972 (rather than 14 Jul 1972)
Oliver G

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Death date for Les Marks (Uni) is recorded as 28 August 1919
Grave and news reports of accident in which he died show actual death date was 27 August 1919

Summary: Death date for Les Marks is 27 Aug 1919 (rather than 28 Aug 1919)
Oliver G

 

[rbartlett]

Yes, the AFL Season Guide only shows the winners from 2001 onwards (same with Mark of the Year). The Wiki page has Malcolm Blight (North Melbourne) for 1982, while the AFL page has Mick Conlan (Fitzroy), and in 1999 Wiki has Ben Cousins (West Coast), but the AFL page has Jarrod Molloy (Brisbane). All the others from 1976-2000 are matching.

This is on the Wiki page (Jones is named as the winner for that year):
View attachment 1878439
I wouldn't have thought goals kicked in finals would count. It has this on another page:
View attachment 1878440
So I think that list on Wikipedia may be pretty doubtful! I'm not sure about the AFL site list either!

1.
Have just uploaded footage showing the Ch7 1999 'Nike' Goal of the Year nominees and the winner announcement which is Jarrod Molloy.
So, our wiki person will need to make the following changes please

Remove Ben Cousins and add Jarrod Molloy on the Goal of the Year page

Goal of the Year (AFL) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Remove Goal of the year from Ben Cousins infobox

Ben Cousins - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2.
I think the wiki page for Goal of the Year , for the pre 2001 winners , can be a bit dubious as I'm pretty confident Jeff Farmer won 1996 Mark of the Year for Ch7 (and that was at the time the AFL didnt have an official award) as per an earlier post below. And I think we should change Winston Abraham to Jeff Farmer for that season as well.

Wikipedia currently lists Winston Abraham as the 1996 Goal of the Year winner. (it doesn't have any citation of where that info comes from)
View attachment 1878412

But I posted footage today that shows Jeff Farmer being awarded the honour, on Ch7's post Grand Final broadcast.


I think this would require the
Goal of the Year page to be changed Goal of the Year (AFL) - Wikipedia
Jeff Farmer's wiki to be changed Jeff Farmer (footballer) - Wikipedia
Winston Abraham's wiki to be changed Winston Abraham - Wikipedia

Any objections?

 

[Gibbsy]

1.
Have just uploaded footage showing the Ch7 1999 'Nike' Goal of the Year nominees and the winner announcement which is Jarrod Molloy.
So, our wiki person will need to make the following changes please

Remove Ben Cousins and add Jarrod Molloy on the Goal of the Year page

Goal of the Year (AFL) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Remove Goal of the year from Ben Cousins infobox

Ben Cousins - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2.
I think the wiki page for Goal of the Year , for the pre 2001 winners , can be a bit dubious as I'm pretty confident Jeff Farmer won 1996 Mark of the Year for Ch7 (and that was at the time the AFL didnt have an official award) as per an earlier post below. And I think we should change Winston Abraham to Jeff Farmer for that season as well.

I think there were more than one GOTY or MOTY awards pre 2001. Hence why it is impossible to limit it to one player

 

[rbartlett]

But the 1999 entry specifically says in the Ben Cousins entry wiki "awarded by Channel 7", which can't be right, because Jarrod Molloy is announced as the winner in the above clip

 

[rbartlett]

But the 1999 entry specifically says in the Ben Cousins entry wiki "awarded by Channel 7", which can't be right, because Jarrod Molloy is announced as the winner in the above clip

Anyhow.
I've made the changes for both 1996 and 1999 Mark of the Year on wikipedia myself, and have added the video evidence for those.
Might have track down the video evidence for all the other pre 2001 winners as not many have citations, so may be wronf

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Death date for Bill Lynch (Rich) is recorded as 9 Nov 1947
Grave and obituary in newspaper show actual death date was 29 November 1947

Summary: Death date for Bill Lynch is 29 Nov 1947 (rather than 9 Nov 1947)
Oliver G, rbartlett

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Death date for Will Houghton (Uni) is recorded as 22 Mar 1952

Death notice in newspaper shows actual death date was 26 March 1952

Summary: Death date for Will Houghton is 26 March 1952 (rather than 22 Mar 1952)
Oliver G

 

[McPang]

Hi all,

Long time follower of this thread, but first-time poster. Pretty new to this, so hopefully I'm not breaking any of the rules / etiquette by posting here. I do apologise if so. Basically, I too (like many here) have built a database / website for footy records across various leagues. An oddity I came across about a year ago, that I've been trying to reconcile for quite some time now, is what is currently accepted for:

Thornton (Tom) Gainsborough Clarke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_Clarke) (b. 27 Nov 1891), who played 6 games for Fitzroy in 1911. It is also commonly accepted that he came from Mt. Lyell (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10902905) prior to playing for Fitzroy.

Where this begins to become inconsistent with other recorded history is that the same Thornton Clarke is noted for having played for Essendon Association (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74592229/7216135). In fact, he is often referred to in post-game reports and anecdotes (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269638870) and is even noted as having been awarded the Jim 'Frosty' Miller Medal twice (1913 & 1914). Not only do records indicate that he played for Essendon Association in the VFA during 1910-1915 (which raises questions whether he could have played for Fitzroy or have been in Tasmania during this time), the earlier article noting that he played for Essendon Association (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74592229/7216135) does not mention having played for either Fitzroy or near Mt. Lyell. It can be noted it was an Essendon-based publication, but it is worth noting.

Obviously, the above alone is not enough to say that the person could not have played for both Essendon Association and Fitzroy, however The Age notes in separate reports from the same day (published on 22 May 1911) about matches played on 20 May 1911 that a "Clarke, a giant from Mount Lyell (Tasmania)" played for Fitzroy against St Kilda (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196205921) and that a "Clark (Essendon)" played for Essendon Association against Footscray (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196205917). The Essendon Gazette reports for the same Essendon Town game that this was "'Tom' Clarke" who kicked 3 goals (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269638870). It seems unlikely that a person would play in both games.

So with all of the above taken into account, I propose that perhaps the T. Clarke that played for Fitzroy in 1911 is not the Thornton Clarke who played for Essendon Association during 1910-1915, and in fact might even be the T. Clarke this is mentioned in this notice (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/84539269) regarding the players who will represent Combined Lyell against Combined Zeehan in the Lyell Miners F. A. in 1910. This would align much more closely to the clearance permit in 1911 noting that Fitzroy T. Clarke was from Mount Lyell.

Sadly, I could not find much more. The researchers on this thread seem a lot more capable than I am with finding details on players. I certainly did not have the skills to narrow anyone down with a name as common as Thomas Clarke.

Apologies for the lengthy post. Since Thornton Clarke not being a Fitzroy player would remove someone who served in WWI from Fitzroy's history, I figured I should present a significant portion of the information that led me to make such a claim.

Hope this helps with correcting a potential inaccuracy in the official records. rbartlett - in case you happen to wonder, this is indeed the same person who emailed you earlier this year regarding A. Stevens for a Richmond reserves player.

 

[35Daicos]

Hi all,

Long time follower of this thread, but first-time poster. Pretty new to this, so hopefully I'm not breaking any of the rules / etiquette by posting here. I do apologise if so. Basically, I too (like many here) have built a database / website for footy records across various leagues. An oddity I came across about a year ago, that I've been trying to reconcile for quite some time now, is what is currently accepted for:

Thornton (Tom) Gainsborough Clarke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_Clarke) (b. 27 Nov 1891), who played 6 games for Fitzroy in 1911. It is also commonly accepted that he came from Mt. Lyell (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10902905) prior to playing for Fitzroy.

Where this begins to become inconsistent with other recorded history is that the same Thornton Clarke is noted for having played for Essendon Association (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74592229/7216135). In fact, he is often referred to in post-game reports and anecdotes (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269638870) and is even noted as having been awarded the Jim 'Frosty' Miller Medal twice (1913 & 1914). Not only do records indicate that he played for Essendon Association in the VFA during 1910-1915 (which raises questions whether he could have played for Fitzroy or have been in Tasmania during this time), the earlier article noting that he played for Essendon Association (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74592229/7216135) does not mention having played for either Fitzroy or near Mt. Lyell. It can be noted it was an Essendon-based publication, but it is worth noting.

Obviously, the above alone is not enough to say that the person could not have played for both Essendon Association and Fitzroy, however The Age notes in separate reports from the same day (published on 22 May 1911) about matches played on 20 May 1911 that a "Clarke, a giant from Mount Lyell (Tasmania)" played for Fitzroy against St Kilda (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196205921) and that a "Clark (Essendon)" played for Essendon Association against Footscray (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196205917). The Essendon Gazette reports for the same Essendon Town game that this was "'Tom' Clarke" who kicked 3 goals (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269638870). It seems unlikely that a person would play in both games.

So with all of the above taken into account, I propose that perhaps the T. Clarke that played for Fitzroy in 1911 is not the Thornton Clarke who played for Essendon Association during 1910-1915, and in fact might even be the T. Clarke this is mentioned in this notice (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/84539269) regarding the players who will represent Combined Lyell against Combined Zeehan in the Lyell Miners F. A. in 1910. This would align much more closely to the clearance permit in 1911 noting that Fitzroy T. Clarke was from Mount Lyell.

Sadly, I could not find much more. The researchers on this thread seem a lot more capable than I am with finding details on players. I certainly did not have the skills to narrow anyone down with a name as common as Thomas Clarke.

Apologies for the lengthy post. Since Thornton Clarke not being a Fitzroy player would remove someone who served in WWI from Fitzroy's history, I figured I should present a significant portion of the information that led me to make such a claim.

Hope this helps with correcting a potential inaccuracy in the official records. rbartlett - in case you happen to wonder, this is indeed the same person who emailed you earlier this year regarding A. Stevens for a Richmond reserves player.

Very interesting, for sure! In case you haven't seen this permit it might be of some use/interest:

This has T. Clarke playing for North Lyell in May 1909: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85614707
No doubt this is meant to say T. Clarke:

Bill Moxon apparently was recruited from Mt. Lyell at the same time.


Unfortunately, I no longer have Ancestry access, and that leaves me a bit restricted with what I can look up.
=======================================================================================================

 

[Gibbsy]

Very interesting, for sure! In case you haven't seen this permit it might be of some use/interest:
View attachment 2086310
This has T. Clarke playing for North Lyell in May 1909: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85614707

Unfortunately, I no longer have Ancestry access, and that leaves me a bit restricted with what I can look up.
View attachment 2086320

Super brief google search (on my phone on my lunch break, so not conducive to good genealogy!) for a “Thomas Clarke Lyell” returned this fairly likely candidate, Thomas Augustus (or Augustine) Clarke

FamilySearch.org

Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.

ancestors.familysearch.org

This would place him as being transferred to Fitzroy at age 22, and he passed away in Queenstown which is on the Tassie west area in the same league as Lyell etc.

I recently renewed my Ancestry so I can have a better look tonight

 

[35Daicos]

Super brief google search (on my phone on my lunch break, so not conducive to good genealogy!) for a “Thomas Clarke Lyell” returned this fairly likely candidate, Thomas Augustus (or Augustine) Clarke

FamilySearch.org

Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.

ancestors.familysearch.org

This would place him as being transferred to Fitzroy at age 22, and he passed away in Queenstown which is on the Tassie west area in the same league as Lyell etc.

I recently renewed my Ancestry so I can have a better look tonight

It looks like that chap was known as Gus (which may or may not be an issue), but it will be interesting to see if Ancestry has him living in Victoria around the right time.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Death date for Ted Brown (Carlton) is currently recorded as 8 Dec 1958 in both af.com and blueseum

It was updated on wikipedia (but not wikidata) to 8 Dec 1957 a few years back and this is correct
Death/funeral notice in newspaper confirms 1957 death date (confusion probably arose b/c death was registered in 1958)

Summary: Death date for Ted Brown is 8 Dec 1957 (rather than 8 Dec 1958)
Oliver G The Blueseum

 

[Gibbsy]

View attachment 2086369
It looks like that chap was known as Gus (which may or may not be an issue), but it will be interesting to see if Ancestry has him living in Victoria around the right time.

The 'Gus' thing is interesting but not necessarily a dead end.

Taking another look through Ancestry (at home this time, much easier), and plugging in the demographics of Thomas Clarke, 'any event' in Queenstown, Tasmania (nearest notable town to Mt Lyell) in 1910, and giving a birth year +/-10 years from 1890, there's not really anyone else that comes close to who we are looking for than the above.

Other details we have on Thomas Augustus Clarke is that he married his wife Mary Jane Gladys Bell in June 1910 in Queenstown, and was also residing in Queenstown in 1914, working as a painter. His wife had their first child in February 1911 in Queenstown, and their second child in February 1913, also in Queenstown.

Suppose that Clarke went and tried his luck on the mainland and returned before the end of 1911, that could definitely link up with the timelines of his wife's births.

There's not a great deal else of primary sources to work off. He is listed in the 1919 Queenstown electoral roll too, still as a painter.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Death date for Bill Harvey (NM) is currently recorded as 6 September 1957

Death notice in newspaper and grave confirms 6 April 1957 is the correct death date

Summary: Death date for Bill Harvey is 6 April 1957 (rather than 6 September 1957)
Oliver G

 

[rbartlett]

Gibbsy Is it worth considering we pitch in to pay for an ancestry subscription that can be shared, like some of us have done with the newspaper one.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Death date for Les Amery (Richmond, Camberwell, Norwood) is currently recorded as 19 April 1999

Probate notice on Ancestry and cremation record confirms 19 April 1998 is the correct death date

Summary: Death date for Les Amery is 19 April 1998 (rather than 19 April 1999)
Oliver G

 

[rbartlett]

Anyone have the 1967 Semi Final footy record Geelong v Collingwood. (the online SLV site doesn't seem to have it)
It will have in it the U19 result of Rd 18 published - in particular I'm looking for the goals/best player for the Richmond match please.

 

[worbod]

Anyone have the 1967 Semi Final footy record Geelong v Collingwood. (the online SLV site doesn't seem to have it)
It will have in it the U19 result of Rd 18 published - in particular I'm looking for the goals/best player for the Richmond match please.

Have you checked whether the library at the MCG has this footy record?

 

[rbartlett]

Have you checked whether the library at the MCG has this footy record?

Actually Collingwood historian has the record and we've just checked and unfortunately the players/goalkickers for Rd 18 arent published in them.
Oh well.

 

[rbartlett]

Does anyone have an existing Ancestry account please?
I'm trying to locate a family member of Billy Wilson (RFC) who died young in 1969

Bill Wilson (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are there any active trees on Ancestry?
Cheers

 

[GreyCrow]

Does anyone have an existing Ancestry account please?
I'm trying to locate a family member of Billy Wilson (RFC) who died young in 1967

Bill Wilson (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are there any active trees on Ancestry?
Cheers

That link says 1969