Conspiracy Theory Martin Bryant and Port Arthur - Conspiracy or Cheddar?

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Malifice said:
1. Rubbish. While not the sharpest tool in the shed, he's no doubt well aware of his legal rights.
2. Not in any way true. Lawyers love cases like the one you describe (high profile, possible miscarriage of justice). Top silks trip over their own wigs for cases like that.
3. As country as TASPOL are, they most assuredly did not torture Bryant or do anything else that might jeopardize his trial. It's not like some street hoodlum they can rough up in the interview chamber. Bryant was literally the most high profile prisoner in Australia at the time, hands down. If anything, the exact opposite occurred with top brass being involved in every single step starting with his arrest.
4. No chance in hell. There were literally multiple (unconnected) eye-witnesses to the shootings, the weapons used were his, he was there on the day, he conducted the siege at the service station afterwards (where he was set on fire) he made a full confession, and there was ample evidence he was predisposed to doing just this from prior psychological reports.

Why people question this (and other similar mass casualty events) is because the human mind simply struggles to comprehend a single person can inflict so much horror. In many people that disbelief causes them to construct a completely insane and complex 'plot' stretching into all arms of government (Federal and State) involving the media, non State actors and more.

The campaigner did it. It's as closed a case as you can possibly get. He could have livestreamed it, and people would still be questioning it.
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Having the Mercury newspaper print his (Bryant’s) picture the following day with the headline This is the man who did it. Followed by a history his name ect. The police and prosecution needed him to plead guilty, as his case was tarnished through that publication.

I was living in Hobart when the massacres occurred and remember that head line vividly. So his trial was already tarnished as he was never going to get a fair trial, after that.
 
Nugett said:
after coercion from his lawyer at the time.

au.news.yahoo.com

'He was a sad, insipid little boy': Martin Bryant’s lawyer accused of betrayal after tell-all interview

Almost 20 years after the horrifying Port Arthur massacre, Martin Bryant’s lawyer has been accused of betraying his client.
au.news.yahoo.com au.news.yahoo.com
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Bryant admitted his guilt during the police interview, it's part of the footage

www.dailymail.co.uk

Martin Bryant admits guilt not knowing camera is still recording | Daily Mail Online

Martin Bryant admits guilt not knowing camera is still recording
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

He thought he was being smart because he thought the camera was off, and didn't realise it was still recording
 

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Nugett said:
Having the Mercury newspaper print his (Bryant’s) picture the following day with the headline This is the man who did it. Followed by a history his name ect. The police and prosecution needed him to plead guilty, as his case was tarnished through that publication.

I was living in Hobart when the massacres occurred and remember that head line vividly. So his trial was already tarnished as he was never going to get a fair trial, after that.
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He ran out of the servo, after abducting and shooting people there, with the same weapons used at Port Arthur, that he also owned, and had been seen shooting before by others.

Oh yeah, and he admitted it, and continues to do so. And had been noted by psychiatrists before as the sort of dude to do just this.

It wasnt some kind of machiavellian scheme by 'operatives' FFS. The SAS cant even keep what happened in a compound in Afghanistan quiet, what on earth makes people think a scheme involving literally hundreds of people in the know, across State and Federal agencies could be kept secret?

It just boggles the mind the lengths some people will go to to delude themselves.
 
Malifice said:
He ran out of the servo, after abducting and shooting people there, with the same weapons used at Port Arthur, that he also owned, and had been seen shooting before by others.

Oh yeah, and he admitted it, and continues to do so. And had been noted by psychiatrists before as the sort of dude to do just this.

It wasnt some kind of machiavellian scheme by 'operatives' FFS. The SAS cant even keep what happened in a compound in Afghanistan quiet, what on earth makes people think a scheme involving literally hundreds of people in the know, across State and Federal agencies could be kept secret?

It just boggles the mind the lengths some people will go to to delude themselves.
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I agree that he is most likely guilty. There are things that don’t quite add up though. The publication of his photo, his house in the local newspapers at the time, before he was even charged is one of them. Surely that information should have been suppressed to the local public until a conviction was recorded to ensure a fair trial if needed.
 
Nugett said:
I agree that he is most likely guilty. There are things that don’t quite add up though. The publication of his photo, his house in the local newspapers at the time, before he was even charged is one of them. Surely that information should have been suppressed to the local public until a conviction was recorded to ensure a fair trial if needed.
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That happens all the time. As soon as a suspect is named, their face is on the front news of the paper.

0a96ad5c-8876-42d9-b93c-af39b181bb98.jpg
 
GG.exe said:
Now the article goes into the general gunmanship. Broad Arrow Cafe...first 19 of 20 shots resulted in 19 deaths. Single gunshot wounds to the head. More deaths than victims overall too. Amateur gunmen, not professionally trained, like counter-terrorist squads, often injure far more than they kill. Shooter showed professional shooting technique, shooting from the hip, always keeping distance from grappling range, swiveling and pivoting.

A number of experts in the field agree. And even an eyewitness account...



Now the article goes into the weapons and ammunition, the discrepancies....
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Bryant with the double digit IQ but the ability to hit 19 of 20 DEATH shots. Whoever believes he could do that probably believes 2 planes took down 3 towers 🤣🤣🤣🤣 and that Oraq had weapons of mass destruction.
 
COxone said:
Bryant with the double digit IQ but the ability to hit 19 of 20 DEATH shots. Whoever believes he could do that probably believes 2 planes took down 3 towers 🤣🤣🤣🤣 and that Oraq had weapons of mass destruction.
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He shot people from 1-2 metres away who were either seated (the cafe) or cowering in fear because they were trapped by a locked door (the gift shop)

When he moved outside he struggled to hit anyone because they were moving and further away.

Hate to break it to you, but that's not the elite marksmen conspiracy theorists think he is.
 
GG.exe said:
Eyewitnesses were saying the shooter was shooting from the hip, and experts say only the top trained military can do shit like that
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So a top trained military marksman can mow down people in close quarters, but struggles to hit the side of the barn as soon as it's a bit further out?
Bit of a contradiction isn't it?

Either that or we are truly screwed if we got to war if that's considered the cream of the Aus army
 

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kane249 said:
So a top trained military marksman can mow down people in close quarters, but struggles to hit the side of the barn as soon as it's a bit further out?
Bit of a contradiction isn't it?

Either that or we are truly screwed if we got to war if that's considered the cream of the Aus army
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Apparently multiple shooters was a theory
 
kane249 said:
He shot people from 1-2 metres away who were either seated (the cafe) or cowering in fear because they were trapped by a locked door (the gift shop)

When he moved outside he struggled to hit anyone because they were moving and further away.

Hate to break it to you, but that's not the elite marksmen conspiracy theorists think he is.
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Also many of his victims were either elderly or children and I believe there was evidence that he literally pressed the end of the barrel against them.

The Broad Arrow cafe was tiny too, you can see when you visit the site and see the remaining footprint, he just walked around an enclosed space picking off defenceless victims.

I don't really like admitting this but someone showed me the footage from the NZ incident a couple years ago, it was sickening and showed how people react in these circumstances, dozens of people were huddled in the corners of rooms, motionless, seemingly paralysed with fear.
But yeh nah only an "ExPerT MarKsMan" could do what he did.
 
You can tell the people who haven't had much experience with guns in this thread. Bryant's alleged kill to shot ratio is absolutely bananas, even of he was close to the targets.
 
COxone said:
You can tell the people who haven't had much experience with guns in this thread. Bryant's alleged kill to shot ratio is absolutely bananas, even of he was close to the targets.
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Well if you like, here's some quotes from Malifice in this thread. He's got extensive gun knowledge having served in the Australian Army

Malifice said:
Its near impossible to miss a seated pensioner with an AR-15 carbine at point blank range. None of the shots were made at distances of greater than around 2 meters.

These were mostly elderly people, sitting down and having lunch, in a tightly packed area completely caught completely by surprise. It would have taken several seconds for them to process what was going on and react, by which time most of them would be dead.

Just because the clown was intellectually disabled, doesn't also mean he cant shoot straight. There is zero link between being dog shit stupid and being a good shot. It doesn't require intelligence to shoot accurately or fast.

Just a lack of empathy for your targets, and some reasonable hand eye co-ordination and practice (and a bit of luck).
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Malifice said:


You can dump the 30 round mag in a few seconds with ease. Anyone familiar with one (has taken them to the range a few times) can empty and reload several mags in a minute.

Took that bloke 4 seconds to blat 30 rounds.

Shooting at something within 5m (indoor ranges) you literally cant miss.

It doesnt take 'military skillz' to kill a bunch of people in a room with one in a matter of minures. It just takes a shit load of anger and a lack of empathy.
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Malifice said:
Firstly there is zero evidence that he fired all shots from the hip. No-one was watching him, and shock can do funny things to do to a persons recall for the many witnesses that did see what happened. The evidence is that he certainly fired some shots from the hip (ballistics and the angle and trajectory of the round).

Secondly the shots he did fire from the hip were at surprised and stationary targets targets either seated or cowering, at point blank range, tightly packed together in a small cafe, and initially most of the victims had backs to him.

In order:
  • Bryant took aim from his hip and pointed his rifle at Moh Yee (William) Ng and Sou Leng Chung, who were at a table beside Bryant. He shot them at close range, killing both instantly. (surprised and unaware targets adjacent to him at close range)
  • Bryant then fired a shot at Mick Sargent, grazing his scalp and knocking him to the floor. (surprised target, point blank range, missed)
  • He fired a fourth shot that killed Sargent's girlfriend, 21-year-old Kate Elizabeth Scott, by hitting her in the back of the head. (Point blank range, surprised target, back of the head)
  • 28-year-old Jason Winter, had been helping the busy café staff. As Bryant turned towards Winter's wife Joanne and their 15-month-old son Mitchell, Winter threw a serving tray at Bryant in an attempt to distract him. Joanne Winter's father pushed his daughter and grandson to the floor and under the table. (Not shot at, likely due to being moving targets)
  • 44-year-old Anthony Nightingale stood up after the sound of the first shots, but had no time to move. Nightingale yelled "No, not here!" as Bryant pointed the weapon at him. As Nightingale leaned forward, he was fatally shot through the neck and spine. (point blank range, cowering target, round missed his head only because he managed to stand up, hitting spine/neck instead)
  • The next table had held a group of ten friends, but some had just left the table to return their meal trays and visit the gift shop. Bryant fired one shot that killed Kevin Vincent Sharp, 68. The second hit Walter Bennett, passed through his body and struck Raymond John Sharp, 67, Kevin Sharp's brother, killing both. The three had their backs towards Bryant, and were unaware what was happening. They at first believed someone was letting off firecrackers. One of them made the comment "That's not funny" after hearing the first few shots, not realising that they were real. The shots were all close range, with the gun at, or just inches away from, the back of their heads. Gerald Broome, Gaye Fidler and her husband John, were all struck by bullet fragments, but survived. (Seated pensioners, in shock, at point blank range, with backs to him and guns pressed against their heads or close enough. Seated across from each other so that 2 shots killed three people).
  • Bryant then turned towards Tony and Sarah Kistan and Andrew Mills. Both men stood up at the noise of the initial shots, but had no time to move away. Andrew Mills was shot in the head. Tony Kistan was also shot from about two metres away, also in the head, but had managed to push his wife away prior to being shot. Sarah Kistan was apparently not seen by Bryant, as she was under the table by that time. (Two kills from two shots from a range of 2 meters - its likely that Bryant has raised the weapon into his shoulder at this point as people are realising what is going on and are standing up)
  • Thelma Walker and Pamela Law were injured by fragments before being dragged to the ground by their friend, Peter Crosswell, as the three sheltered underneath the table. Also injured by fragments from these shots was Patricia Barker.
  • It was only then that the majority of the people in the café began to realise what was happening and that the shots were not from a reenactment. At this point, there was great confusion, with many people not knowing what to do, as Bryant was near the main exit.
  • Bryant moved just a few metres and began shooting at the table where Graham Colyer, Carolyn Loughton and her daughter Sarah were seated. Colyer was injured in the jaw, nearly choking to death on his own blood. Sarah Loughton ran towards her mother, who had been moving between tables. Carolyn Loughton threw herself on top of her daughter. Bryant shot Carolyn Loughton in the back; her eardrum was ruptured by the muzzle blast from the gun going off beside her ear. She survived her injuries, but learned after she came out of surgery that, despite her efforts, Sarah had been fatally shot in the head. (All three victims were seated, Carolyn was shot in the back from a range so close that her eardrum ruptured from the muzzle blast as she shielded her daughter).
  • Bryant pivoted around and shot Mervyn Howard who was seated. The bullet passed through him, through a window of the café, and hit a table on the outside balcony. Bryant quickly followed up with a shot to the neck of Mervyn Howard's wife, Mary. Bryant then leaned over a vacant baby stroller and pointed the gun at her head and shot her a second time. Both of the Howards' injuries were fatal. Several people outside then realised there was real danger and began to run away.(Point blank rage, seated targets, took time to aim at an already wounded victim to ensure a follow up headshot)
  • Bryant was near the exit, preventing others from attempting to run past him and escape. Bryant moved across the cafe towards the gift shop area. There was an exit door through the display area to the outside balcony, but it was locked and could only be opened with a key. As Bryant moved, Robert Elliott stood up. He was shot in the arm and head, left slumping against the fireplace but alive.
All of these events, from the first bullet that killed Ng, took approximately 15–30 seconds, during which twelve people were killed.

Notice how Bryant only obtains headshots against seated or cowering targets with all of the shots taken at ranges between point blank/ touching to no more than 2 meters? He gets 'lucky' and kills two people with one shot (the two were seated opposite each other, and seated).

Bryant managed to kill 12 people in 15-30 seconds in a crowded and cramped cafe. All of the people killed were initially seated, and all of them were cowering or totally unaware of what was going on, and many had their backs to him.



Not at these ranges there isnt mate. We're talking between point blank to 2 meter ranges here, hipfiring and hitting seated targets in the back of the head.

If I walked up behind you seated at your desk out there, with a rifle extended from my hip, where is the barrel going to naturally point?



Its negligible. Its a .223/5.56mm round mate. Ive fired enough 5.56mm rounds in my time to know what the recoil is like. M4 Carbines (pretty much identical to the AR15 carbine Bryant used), Steyrs and Minimi machine guns.

It doesnt take training to do what Bryant did. Just anger and a total lack of empathy.



The only victims that 'moved' during the cafe shootings were three dudes that stood up (with one of them only standing in order to beg him to stop), and another girl who raced to her mother (who then shielded her with her own body, allowing Bryant to shoot both at point blank range).

Most of the victims were seated, with backs to him and totally in shock (or denial) about what was happening. He shot most of them at point blank range with the muzzle not more than 2 meters away, and in many cases within a few inches.
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Malifice said:
He left the SLR in his car. Too big to fit in the duffel bag probably (unlike the Colt AR carbine). They're very long guns (I've fired them a few times).

He switched weapons after the cafe and bookshop killings. He went outside and shot at a few groups near the bus parking area, then went back to his car, got out the FN, and returned to the buses. He attempted a few long range shots with the FN. His longest range shot with the Colt was 50 meters (he missed), and most of the people he killed with the Colt were at ranges of under a meter.

He was nowhere near as accurate once he switched rifles - he still only managed to hit mainly cowering targets at point blank range.

He had killed 22 with the carbine by the time he switched rifles, and had wounded 16 others.
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Malifice said:
You ever fired an AR-15 or a M-16?

Theyre pop guns mate. Recoil is negligble and you have to try to miss at the ranges we're talking about here.

Another hick firing 60 rounds inside of 15 seconds:



Place a few dozen people in front of him and they'd be dead before they got ten steps.

Here is a pro:



He's nailing head shot targets with rapid fire at 25-50 yards. This requires a bit more skill, but given enough rounds and enough confidence, you could get an untrained person pulling this off pretty easy.

You're acting like what he did requires some kind of freakish skill. You're wrong and you dont understand these weapons.

You dont need any special marksmanship skill to accurately employ rapid fire of a semi automatic rifle at these ranges. The recoil is negligble for any grown man of even below average strength. Basic weapon handling is all you need at these kinds of ranges.

All you need to do what Bryant did is basic weapon handling (know how to competently operate the weapon), a total lack of empathy and a shit load of anger. And he had both of these qualities in spades. Marksmanship or a steady hand doesnt enter into it at these ranges.

You just need to be prepared to kill. And kill. And kill. And kill. And kill, kill kill. Without thinking. Shit; being a dullard probably helped him.

Most of those people would be dead before they knew what the heck was going on. The others were pensioners who basically sat there cowering, pleading for their lives or simply froze. The few who did get up and run out of the cafe generally made it out.



Mate if you want, we can meet up and you can film me emptying 30 rounds from a semi auto paintball gun into you at ranges of a few meters, all within 10 seconds.

And that's with a wildly innacurate paintball gun and not an AR15, and with you expecting it, and with you standing up.
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Malifice said:
Here's a hick firing an AR15 at the kind of ranges we're talking about here:



This guy manages about 30 headshots in around 6-7 seconds, and from the looks of him he hasnt spent a day in the military, nor does he appear to be particulary bright. Does what he do in this video look in any way complicated or requiring some form of elite training or skill or smarts to pull off?

This isnt marksmanship we're talking about here. Its a massacre. Im persuaded that you seriously understimate both how these weapons operate and what their killing potential and ease of use really is. You overestimate how trivially easy it is to gun down cowering people at close range. Half of them would have frozen or simply cowered on the spot begging for mercy.

You dont need to be a marksman to shoot a cowering or surprised person in the head at point blank range, you just need to lack empathy and be very very angry.

If Bryant was pulling off headshots at 300+ meters against moving targets in a strong wind reliably, we could talk about marksmanship (and even then, this level of marksmanship has nothing to do with IQ or lack thereof, and everything to do with a naturally steady hand and a good eye or a lot of training).
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Malifice said:
What utter bullshit. There is zero corellation between 'low IQ' and being a good (or bad) shot.

Einstein isnt a better shot that some hick from the country. Nerds dont shoot better than dumb pricks.

In fact in my experience, its frequently the other way around. Its not exactly complex to point and shoot. Overthinking it will actually slow you down, and more often than not make you miss.

A lack of empathy and a lot of anger are the main attributes needed to murder a lot of people. Bryant had these qualities in spades.



I know about 'shooting precision' mate, and I can tell you now that when shooting unsuspecting cowering or seated civilians with a long arm at point blank range, you literally can not miss.

Go to your nearest paintball range. Hire a paintball gun. Open up on seated people at the kiosk who are not expecting it from point blank range. With zero prior training and a weapon like a paintball gun with rubbish accuracy I can assure you of 30 hits inside of 15 seconds including several headshots.

(Dont actually do this by the way)

I've personally fired M4 carbines, F88 Steyrs, SLRs, AK's, Winchester lever actions, Browning and H+K 9mm pistols, MP5 SMG's, .50 and .30 calibre machine guns, F89 minimi, M-60 and Mag 58 machine guns.

You are seriously underestimating what a zero empathy angry dullard can achieve with a modern semi automatic long arm and a few years of target shooting against defenseless, seated and cowering pensioners and children at point blank range.
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Malifice said:
This.

I've fired M4 carbines and M16's, SLR's, AK 47's, Steyr AUG's and lever action Winchester 3030's. Of them, the SLR had a bit of a kick firing the 7.62mm NATO round (nothing like a shotgun or pistol). The 5.56mm rifles (Steyr and M4/16) are pop guns one can fire one handed from the hip without any overly noticeable recoil. Point, shoot, hypersonic round goes through the person aiming at, and anyone else on the other side of that person. You cant miss at that range, and can easily pop off 2-3 rounds a second, getting head shots at 100 percent accuracy against stationary targets at 3 meters or less.

Many of those he shot, weren't even moving and were hit at point blank range (i.e. the rifle was a few inches away). They were either completely surprised and flat footed or frozen, cowering in a corner and begging for their lives.
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Can you counter a former soldiers take with any of your own personal experience?
 
COxone said:
You can tell the people who haven't had much experience with guns in this thread. Bryant's alleged kill to shot ratio is absolutely bananas, even of he was close to the targets.
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You can tell the people who live in a fantasy world where they dream of conspiracy’s to help them rationalise what they hear.
 
kane249 said:
Well if you like, here's some quotes from Malifice in this thread. He's got extensive gun knowledge having served in the Australian Army












Can you counter a former soldiers take with any of your own personal experience?
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Martin Bryant wouldn't of been eligible for the Army. He didn't have the mental capacity to be able to get in. He wasn't even allowed to manage the millions that he had because of his disability.

So yeah, I find it pretty hard to believe that an untrained person can get such a high death to shot ratio. Anyone who has handled guns knows this.
 
Slartibartfast said:
You can tell the people who live in a fantasy world where they dream of conspiracy’s to help them rationalise what they hear.
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19 out of 20 shots. Kills. You think you could do that? No chance. The dude had the mental capacity of a 10 year old. He sucked at everything else in life but getting extremely high death to shot ratios. Amazing. Sounds a bit unbelievable if you ask me. But I reckon I know your type, probably got your booster and can't wait for your 4th shot eh? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
 
COxone said:
Martin Bryant wouldn't of been eligible for the Army. He didn't have the mental capacity to be able to get in. He wasn't even allowed to manage the millions that he had because of his disability.

So yeah, I find it pretty hard to believe that an untrained person can get such a high death to shot ratio. Anyone who has handled guns knows this.
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Did you actually read what I posted? I never said Bryant was in the army.

What I did link you to was numerous posts from Malifice in this thread. Malifice served in the Australian army, and has extensive knowledge of firearms.

Whats your knowledge of them by comparison?
 
COxone said:
19 out of 20 shots. Kills. You think you could do that? No chance. The dude had the mental capacity of a 10 year old. He sucked at everything else in life but getting extremely high death to shot ratios. Amazing. Sounds a bit unbelievable if you ask me. But I reckon I know your type, probably got your booster and can't wait for your 4th shot eh? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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You don't need to be smart to have good hand eye coordination.

As a Carlton supporter you would be well aware of Fevola. Guy was as thick as a brick and still one of the most skilled set shots of the modern era.
 
COxone said:
Martin Bryant wouldn't of been eligible for the Army. He didn't have the mental capacity to be able to get in. He wasn't even allowed to manage the millions that he had because of his disability.

So yeah, I find it pretty hard to believe that an untrained person can get such a high death to shot ratio. Anyone who has handled guns knows this.
Click to expand...

I have extensive firearms training and usage, and I can assure you you're wrong.

In fact from your comments, I doubt you've actually ever fired a rifle yourself.
 

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Conspiracy Theory Martin Bryant and Port Arthur - Conspiracy or Cheddar?

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