Opinion Matthew Nicks: Adelaide's Coach

[weekend at bernies]

Didnt McGovern gets the shits up because we told him there was no more money to offer - only to then recruit Gibbs on big $$$$ ??

That was my understanding.. that he thought he was right to play the GF

 

[Eagleboy2011]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-crystal-ball-superfooty-reporters-give-their-waytooearly-predictions-for-2023/news-story/effd03b5b5c89444681e297aec749d53

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Surprised Hawthorn. They always beat us, and we haven't played well against GWS for years.

 

[Scorpus]

no, it was right at the tme based on his first 2 seasons. Mackay was obviously on too much and was senior player bonus.

I've never seen anything to suggest we were paying hampton 400k

This is the issue though. You pay below average players too much and suddenly when you offer the same to young actually talented players it's a) not enough because they are better than those overpaid players and b) there's no more money to give them because we are wasting money

"Oh you're only offering $400k? Well Mackay is on $400k and I'm better than him. I'll see if anyone else is willing to pay more"

Enter Melbourne

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

This is the issue though. You pay below average players too much and suddenly when you offer the same to young actually talented players it's a) not enough because they are better than those overpaid players and b) there's no more money to give them because we are wasting money

"Oh you're only offering $400k? Well Mackay is on $400k and I'm better than him. I'll see if anyone else is willing to pay more"

Enter Melbourne

that was our first offer not final offer

 

[Scorpus]

that was our first offer not final offer

And that first offer was insulting

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

And that first offer was insulting

nah

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

So McGovern signed for us $500k a year. After refusing a deal worth around $750k a year with Freo.

Media Watch: Fremantle’s big offer for Mitch McGovern, Jobe Watson too ‘slow’, Gary Ablett slammed

Freo’s big offer for Crow, ‘slow’ Don slammed

www.foxsports.com.au

Then a year later - he decides that $800k is the magic number?

More money + followed his line coach + girlfriend wanted to study in Melbourne.

 

[rabidcrow]

And that first offer was insulting

Spot on. You offer reasonable value upfront for young stars and if you overpay by $50-80k so be it
MacKay you offer a $50-100k under what he thinks and take the punt he stays - average role player only and relatively easy to replace


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[cleanhands]

More money + followed his line coach + girlfriend wanted to study in Melbourne.

More chances of picking up a KFC franchise

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

More chances of picking up a KFC franchise

To eat their profits lol.

 

[cleanhands]

To eat their profits lol.

imagine both him and Jeremy having one, worth buying shares in chickens

 

[rabidcrow]

So McGovern signed for us $500k a year. After refusing a deal worth around $750k a year with Freo.

Media Watch: Fremantle’s big offer for Mitch McGovern, Jobe Watson too ‘slow’, Gary Ablett slammed

Freo’s big offer for Crow, ‘slow’ Don slammed

www.foxsports.com.au

Then a year later - he decides that $800k is the magic number?

Sorry - are you really using old Tom Browne rumour to argue a point years later. I would suggest to you the Freo offer wasn’t nearly that big - and that we ended up pushing MM to sign for $500-550k to get it out of the way before GF and he agreed

Then we didn’t play him when he thought his hammy was okay, realised we did have more money but was earmarked for Gibbs and then Carlton came back with a monster offer and he got very narky about the whole process and demanded out




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[MRB37]

Was McGovern at the camp?

On SM-A115F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Didn't play the GF, so don't believe he was on the more complained about part.

So McGovern signed for us $500k a year. After refusing a deal worth around $750k a year with Freo.

Media Watch: Fremantle’s big offer for Mitch McGovern, Jobe Watson too ‘slow’, Gary Ablett slammed

Freo’s big offer for Crow, ‘slow’ Don slammed

www.foxsports.com.au

Then a year later - he decides that $800k is the magic number?

Pyke talked about swapping him to defence which he cracked the sads about (and what Voss eventually did with him this year) and had a GF that wanted to move to Melbourne for studies as well.

 

[John Who]

Money always factors into these decisions, but you have to be blind Freddy to think it was the primary reason for all 3 leaving.

Lever was so pissed at the club that he leaked footage of him throwing away all his crows gear and didn't show up for the B&F. All kinds of media noise about McGovern being pissed off about the club mismanaging his hammy, the camp, how he wanted out, forced into signing an extension etc. Cameron made his disdain for the club very very clear.

These players couldn't wait to get out. They refused to keep playing. The situation was so untenable that we actually traded them despite McGovern being contracted until 2020.



Thats definitely fair and the challenge will definitely be on retention moving forward.

For me the ability to secure Rankine and Dawson is a big tick for us and if we were a rabble like 2018/2019 I doubt we would have secured them.

I’m sorry but your recollection or perspective of the events appear very distorted regarding Cameron, Lever and McGovern.

Cameron was rumoured to leave during mid-year in 2017, due to family reasons/money, but there was no signs of disdain from him at all. He was playing some genuine A-grade footy in the latter few games in 2017.

Lever may have some altercations or disdain, but ultimately he was wanting out due to Melbourne having a mega offer for him. We either couldn’t match it, or felt it wasn’t worth the match as we already had Doedee waiting in line for Lever’s spot.

McGovern was the only one who left in 2018, after supposedly so much horrific traumas regarding the camp. Only one player left, that is fact. Bad culture or bad camp experience causing him to leave? Or a mega offer from Carlton? Which is the higher probability?

 

[AFC979810]

Sorry - are you really using old Tom Browne rumour to argue a point years later. I would suggest to you the Freo offer wasn’t nearly that big - and that we ended up pushing MM to sign for $500-550k to get it out of the way before GF and he agreed

So your speculation is better than Tom Browne's rumours?

Apart from insiders at the clubs involved - nobody knows how much Freo's true offer is. The 750k could have been a fake offer leaked by Colin Young or it could have been legit - who knows? Also - without contracts being made public we don't know exactly how much McGovern was on here in Adelaide.

We are all speculating here.

 

[AFC979810]

I’m sorry but your recollection or perspective of the events appear very distorted regarding Cameron, Lever and McGovern.

Cameron was rumoured to leave during mid-year in 2017, due to family reasons/money, but there was no signs of disdain from him at all. He was playing some genuine A-grade footy in the latter few games in 2017.

Lever may have some altercations or disdain, but ultimately he was wanting out due to Melbourne having a mega offer for him. We either couldn’t match it, or felt it wasn’t worth the match as we already had Doedee waiting in line for Lever’s spot.

McGovern was the only one who left in 2018, after supposedly so much horrific traumas regarding the camp. Only one player left, that is fact. Bad culture or bad camp experience causing him to leave? Or a mega offer from Carlton? Which is the higher probability?

And I think that your recollection is the easy way out. Its so easy to just say that its money why all these players left.

What astounds me is that we have the same salary cap as all these other teams. I mean compare us to Port Adelaide. Since 2010 - we have had similar levels of success. Port have made finals 5 times, we have made finals 4 times. Port have made 3 prelims (0-3), We made 2 (1-1) and we have one grand final appearance in that time.

Here are the best 22 players we have lost to other clubs: Bock, Tippett, Gunston, Davis, Dangerfield, Jake Lever, Mitch McGovern, Charlie Cameron, Betts, Greenwood, Keath, Hartigan, Crouch, Atkins (could also count Sauce/JJ).

Here are Ports best 22 players they have lost: Jackson Trengrove (maybe), Wingard, Karl Amon, Ryder, Dougal Howard.

Our player retention is the worst of non-expansion clubs (GWS/GC) in the AFL. And it ain't got anything to do with money.

 

[AFC979810]

You're off on this imho

Lever wanted a new contract from us. Gov had literally signed a new contract less than 12 months before (and there were whispers he wanted out literally weeks after signing the year before when Carlton's offer came through too late). Cameron was contracted.

Carltons offer came through too late?

How does that timing work? Colin Young was obviously shopping Mitch around & Freo was the key target. Do you think that Carltons list management team went "hey this kid just signed a 3 year extension - lets offer him a mammoth deal a couple of weeks after?). Thats not how it works.

McGovern signed - shit went bad and everything was toxic. He wanted out and his agent leveraged that to get him paid.

They were very happy with here until their footy exploded and the $$$ signs started flashing

Mitch's best footy was prior to signing his extension with the Crows.

Cameron played pretty good footy in 2015/2016 - its not like he just exploded onto the scene in 2017.

The behavior just isn't consistent with other players leaving for more money. Compare the Dawson to Lever scenario. Sydney were filthy and were very public that they didn't want him to leave, they weren't being appropriately compensated, etc. Dawson didn't leak photos of him getting rid of all his Sydney gear, didn't not show up to the clubs B&F.

There was a palpable disdain from Cameron, McGovern, and Lever about the footy club. All 3 wanted to get as far away from the club as possible, that they leveraged it to get paid more is a just a bonus.

The source of where our wheels fell off as a club is an interesting debate however

Player retention has been the biggest issue for our club since 2010. IMO we have shown an amazing ability to recruit and develop players equal or better to any other club - we just can't bloody keep em.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Carltons offer came through too late?

How does that timing work? Colin Young was obviously shopping Mitch around & Freo was the key target. Do you think that Carltons list management team went "hey this kid just signed a 3 year extension - lets offer him a mammoth deal a couple of weeks after?). Thats not how it works.

McGovern signed - s**t went bad and everything was toxic. He wanted out and his agent leveraged that to get him paid.

That's exactly what happened. You don't recall?

McGovern re-signed with us late in the season (yay, he wants to stay, he likes the culture) then the story dropped in trade week that he wanted to be traded to Carlton.

It was a wtf moment on here. Seemed ridiculous until the pieces started being put together afterwards.

The behavior just isn't consistent with other players leaving for more money. Compare the Dawson to Lever scenario. Sydney were filthy and were very public that they didn't want him to leave, they weren't being appropriately compensated, etc. Dawson didn't leak photos of him getting rid of all his Sydney gear, didn't not show up to the clubs B&F.

There was a palpable disdain from Cameron, McGovern, and Lever about the footy club. All 3 wanted to get as far away from the club as possible, that they leveraged it to get paid more is a just a bonus.

Again, all that only developed after we wouldn't pay them and someone else would.

Player retention has been the biggest issue for our club since 2010. IMO we have shown an amazing ability to recruit and develop players equal or better to any other club - we just can't bloody keep em.

Yep, which is why the bad culture that developed here and was exposed by the Dunstall review isn't and wasn't the root cause of those guys leaving.

Our ability to recognise market value and pay accordingly has long been flawed. We value tenure. We respect our elders.

Long, generous contracts for seniors. Over-value mid-range players who are good team men. Younger players will get their turn.

 

[AFC979810]

That's exactly what happened. You don't recall?

McGovern re-signed with us late in the season (yay, he wants to stay, he likes the culture) then the story dropped in trade week that he wanted to be traded to Carlton.

It was a wtf moment on here. Seemed ridiculous until the pieces started being put together afterwards.

But what's crazy - the money offered by Free - $750k isn't that different than $800k. If it wasn't about the money in August of 2017 - why was it about the money in August of 2018.

You gonna tell me that Colin Young didn't know our salary cap situation. These guys would know who is being paid what.

Again, all that only developed after we wouldn't pay them and someone else would.

But they bounced mid contract! Thats the crazy thing.

To think, mid contract, two young players at the same club just go - "I want more money I am leaving". Its unheard of.

On face value - I could understand Lever. He was out of contract and got paid a lot (doesn't explain the B&F, how pissed off he was at the club and leaking photos of him throwing away all his crows gear).

It was so toxic we had to trade them. To my knowledge there are 3 players in recent times that have requested trades mid contract: Bobby Hill - GWS forced him to play and traded him the following year. Josh Dunkley - WB Forced him to play his two years and then traded him to Brisbane. Rory Lobb - Free forced him to play one season and then traded him.

Yep, which is why the bad culture that developed here and was exposed by the Dunstall review isn't and wasn't the root cause of those guys leaving.

Our ability to recognise market value and pay accordingly has long been flawed. We value tenure. We respect our elders.

Long, generous contracts for seniors. Over-value mid-range players who are good team men. Younger players will get their turn.

So we have a terrible culture, fractured playing list, review comes in and fires head of football, coaches, head coach and gets a new head of cultcha.

But multiple players demanding out mid contract has nothing to do with that. Despite the players publicly bashing the hell out of the club?

Money is the easy answer, but its not the correct answer.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

But what's crazy - the money offered by Free - $750k isn't that different than $800k. If it wasn't about the money in August of 2017 - why was it about the money in August of 2018.

You gonna tell me that Colin Young didn't know our salary cap situation. These guys would know who is being paid what.



But they bounced mid contract! Thats the crazy thing.

To think, mid contract, two young players at the same club just go - "I want more money I am leaving". Its unheard of.

On face value - I could understand Lever. He was out of contract and got paid a lot (doesn't explain the B&F, how pissed off he was at the club and leaking photos of him throwing away all his crows gear).

It was so toxic we had to trade them. To my knowledge there are 3 players in recent times that have requested trades mid contract: Bobby Hill - GWS forced him to play and traded him the following year. Josh Dunkley - WB Forced him to play his two years and then traded him to Brisbane. Rory Lobb - Free forced him to play one season and then traded him.



So we have a terrible culture, fractured playing list, review comes in and fires head of football, coaches, head coach and gets a new head of cultcha.

But multiple players demanding out mid contract has nothing to do with that. Despite the players publicly bashing the hell out of the club?

Money is the easy answer, but its not the correct answer.

The supposedly bad culture in 2017 saw us reach a grand final, McGovern re-sign with the club and Lever try to re-sign with the club - in that year?

The GF loss saw us then descend into madness, Burton in camp overdrive - handbrake off. It wasn't until the end of 2019 that the review happened.

Charlie had one more year on his small, promising forward pocket off the rookie list and paid accordingly deal vs a huge offer to jump ship. We couldn't restructure/extend his deal. A bunch of player's dollars were going up and some were going to get squeezed out.

 

[GROTTO]

Charlie had one more year on his small, promising forward pocket off the rookie list and paid accordingly deal vs a huge offer to jump ship. We couldn't restructure/extend his deal. A bunch of player's dollars were going up and some were going to get squeezed out.

The biggest mistake the Club made at the time IMO, was restructuring Betts contract, when we should have been putting in those dollars to keep CC.

I do understand why the Club did what it did, Eddie was at his peak and was a huge draw card for the crowd on game days at AO and more importantly his xfactor he was bringing to the team, would have been crazy not to have given him the big dollars. In hindsight, the Club should have seen and known his trajectory was only going to descend.

Then again we got Fogarty for CC and if he can take his game to the elite level in 2023 after a very impressive 2nd half of 2022 and become what we think he can become and become the heir apparent to Tex, losing CC in hindsight may have been the best thing to happen.

 

[John Who]

And I think that your recollection is the easy way out. Its so easy to just say that its money why all these players left.

What astounds me is that we have the same salary cap as all these other teams. I mean compare us to Port Adelaide. Since 2010 - we have had similar levels of success. Port have made finals 5 times, we have made finals 4 times. Port have made 3 prelims (0-3), We made 2 (1-1) and we have one grand final appearance in that time.

Here are the best 22 players we have lost to other clubs: Bock, Tippett, Gunston, Davis, Dangerfield, Jake Lever, Mitch McGovern, Charlie Cameron, Betts, Greenwood, Keath, Hartigan, Crouch, Atkins (could also count Sauce/JJ).

Here are Ports best 22 players they have lost: Jackson Trengrove (maybe), Wingard, Karl Amon, Ryder, Dougal Howard.

Our player retention is the worst of non-expansion clubs (GWS/GC) in the AFL. And it ain't got anything to do with money.

What you’re doing is effectively this analogy:
“Company A has 30% more employees leaving this year than Company B, and therefore we can conclude that Company A has the poorer culture or weaker ability to retain their employees”.

You’re trying to put a simple summary to a potentially multifactorial reasoning behind the observation. Company A may have the better skilled employees and perhaps other companies are trying to attract some of them to leave Company A. Company A may decide to let more go this year due to their employees ageing demographic. Company A may have more “family reasons” as to letting more go this year.

Who really knows other than speculation vs speculation from an outsiders perspective? However, I’m just trying to make a point that if it was due to genuine bad culture, a fair few would want to depart in the same year for your argument to gain more credence. Players leaving us in spurts are more likely due to individual factors.

 

[John Who]

The biggest mistake the Club made at the time IMO, was restructuring Betts contract, when we should have been putting in those dollars to keep CC.

I do understand why the Club did what it did, Eddie was at his peak and was a huge draw card for the crowd on game days at AO and more importantly his xfactor he was bringing to the team, would have been crazy not to have given him the big dollars. In hindsight, the Club should have seen and known his trajectory was only going to descend.

Then again we got Fogarty for CC and if he can take his game to the elite level in 2023 after a very impressive 2nd half of 2022 and become what we think he can become and become the heir apparent to Tex, losing CC in hindsight may have been the best thing to happen.

I think the CC loss is effectively a win-win for both clubs with us having also a potential star forward in Fog.
If you extrapolate further in the recent few years, the loss of Betts, Jenkins, McGovern, Atkins, Greenwood, CEY, Keath. Is it necessarily a loss, now in their place we have Rachele, Thilthorpe, McAdam, Berry, Butts, Soligo, Parnell?

“Player exodus” has been a media-driven phrase. They never bothered to discuss what is our actual net gain or loss.

 

[George Kramer]

I think the CC loss is effectively a win-win for both clubs with us having also a potential star forward in Fog.
If you extrapolate further in the recent few years, the loss of Betts, Jenkins, McGovern, Atkins, Greenwood, CEY, Keath. Is it necessarily a loss, now in their place we have Rachele, Thilthorpe, McAdam, Berry, Butts, Soligo, Parnell?

“Player exodus” has been a media-driven phrase. They never bothered to discuss what is our actual net gain or loss.

In their place? You make out as if we brought in these players with what we received in compensation. Only McAdam you could count as result of a trade.

No one talks about the net gain because your point is silly. All clubs draft players.

 

[AFC979810]

I think the CC loss is effectively a win-win for both clubs with us having also a potential star forward in Fog.
If you extrapolate further in the recent few years, the loss of Betts, Jenkins, McGovern, Atkins, Greenwood, CEY, Keath. Is it necessarily a loss, now in their place we have Rachele, Thilthorpe, McAdam, Berry, Butts, Soligo, Parnell?

“Player exodus” has been a media-driven phrase. They never bothered to discuss what is our actual net gain or loss.

2016/2017 -Make finals and win 15 games each year. Make the Grand Final in 2017.

We lose Cameron & Lever - Fall out of the finals with 12 wins in 2018.

We then lose McGovern fall further to 10 wins in 2019.

We lose Betts, Greenwood, Jacobs, Keath - Fall again to our worst season ever - 3 wins and a wooden spoon and finalize the exodus moving on Atkins, Knight, Crouch, Gibbs, Hartigan.

We then missed the finals in 2021 and 2022 and are according to many a long shot to make it a 6th consecutive season outside the 8.

I would say the exodus exists and the Net loss is pretty bloody obvious.