Max Bailey ACL - CONFIRMED OUT FOR 2010

[The Swert]

Surely this is the end for big Bailey. Who's ever heard of someone coming back from successfully from recos on both knees. Seems he'll go the way of Mark Philippoussis. Body just not up to it and never will be. Sad.

 

[The Ghost Of Glenferrie]

I would just like to make a suggestion to people back home who may know Max Bailey personally or perhaps may know some of the medical people inside the club.

My thoughts on this issue was that he might consider the use of the Ligament Advancement Reinforcement System (LARS) system for his ACL reconstruction.

I say this for a number of reasons, namely that it would appear that Max has some form of underlying issue with either the structural integrity or the biological composition of the anatomy within his knee joint that makes him susceptible to ACL/PCL injury. With this in mind, I just wonder if the HFC medical staff would consider a different approach on this occasion that might have a better long term outcome for the lad.

I know of many NBA and NFL players here in the USA that use this form of reconstruction as their first choice weapon, due in most part, to the considerably quicker recovery times this procedure produces and also the risk of the ligament graft failing is also lower when compared with traditional ACL grafts. (Note: Evidence of failure rates is only based on short term data < 15 years versus the longitudinal data of the traditional approach - I understand this is why Australian surgeons stay traditional).

With recovery time shortened it might give Max some hope of resuming running and some training loads within an 8-12 week period (pre x-mas). I really believe that a shorter recovery time in this instance would give him a real mental boost in terms of facing his recovery.

The benefit to HFC and Max is that it would allow HFC to rookie list him and potentially let him play a full year with Box Hill. Then he could complete a preseason in 2010/2011 as rookie whereby HFC can make a call on his future in early 2011.

Look, he may never get back to senior football, but at least if he is playing in the two's quickly it will allow HFC to monitor his progress, will provide Max with a ray of light and if his form permits he's always a chance of elevation to the senior list if a long term injury occurs to another player.

I really urge a more aggressive approach in this instance as three knee reconstructions is a huge psychological mountain to climb and in a nut shell his entire football future depends on not just recovering from the injury, but getting it resolved quickly.

For if it is not resolved quickly I just cannot see him being retained on the list for 2010/11 - and also what other club would take a chance on him.

As I said the LARS system can be performed quickly and the results in other professional sports here in the USA and Europe are excellent. NBA, NFL and EPL in particular rely on speed, acceleration and lateral movement as key aspects to success in their game and in many respects replicate AFL conditions.

I know the odds are short given his history, but really what are his choices?

"The meek get pinched but the bold survive - good luck Maxy Pad"

 

[Neville Bartos]

I dunno mate, Hawthorn are pretty gutless when it comes to these sorts of decisions. They wouldn't want the liability of it going bad. That being said, god I hope they do it if we decide to keep him, that they go ahead with it and give home some hope

 

[Binxy]

They'd have to seriously consider it now....if they persist at all....

 

[hfc70]

I would just like to make a suggestion to people back home who may know Max Bailey personally or perhaps may know some of the medical people inside the club.

My thoughts on this issue was that he might consider the use of the Ligament Advancement Reinforcement System (LARS) system for his ACL reconstruction.

I say this for a number of reasons, namely that it would appear that Max has some form of underlying issue with either the structural integrity or the biological composition of the anatomy within his knee joint that makes him susceptible to ACL/PCL injury. With this in mind, I just wonder if the HFC medical staff would consider a different approach on this occasion that might have a better long term outcome for the lad.

I know of many NBA and NFL players here in the USA that use this form of reconstruction as their first choice weapon, due in most part, to the considerably quicker recovery times this procedure produces and also the risk of the ligament graft failing is also lower when compared with traditional ACL grafts. (Note: Evidence of failure rates is only based on short term data < 15 years versus the longitudinal data of the traditional approach - I understand this is why Australian surgeons stay traditional).

With recovery time shortened it might give Max some hope of resuming running and some training loads within an 8-12 week period (pre x-mas). I really believe that a shorter recovery time in this instance would give him a real mental boost in terms of facing his recovery.

The benefit to HFC and Max is that it would allow HFC to rookie list him and potentially let him play a full year with Box Hill. Then he could complete a preseason in 2010/2011 as rookie whereby HFC can make a call on his future in early 2011.

Look, he may never get back to senior football, but at least if he is playing in the two's quickly it will allow HFC to monitor his progress, will provide Max with a ray of light and if his form permits he's always a chance of elevation to the senior list if a long term injury occurs to another player.

I really urge a more aggressive approach in this instance as three knee reconstructions is a huge psychological mountain to climb and in a nut shell his entire football future depends on not just recovering from the injury, but getting it resolved quickly.

For if it is not resolved quickly I just cannot see him being retained on the list for 2010/11 - and also what other club would take a chance on him.

As I said the LARS system can be performed quickly and the results in other professional sports here in the USA and Europe are excellent. NBA, NFL and EPL in particular rely on speed, acceleration and lateral movement as key aspects to success in their game and in many respects replicate AFL conditions.

I know the odds are short given his history, but really what are his choices?

"The meek get pinched but the bold survive - good luck Maxy Pad"

Totally Agree....nothing to lose

 

[justthedukes]

I think it will be harder for him to get back mentally rather than physically. It would be so tough to stay positive.

 

[rizzo]

Really shattering for Max. Was at the local footy checking live scores and I saw he had 2 hitouts and a free against and thought the worst

But the question has to be asked, why on earth would you risk him when he had only a few VFL games, and you guys weren't really playing for anything. I guess hindsight is the best like how we treated Egan, but surely you must be scratching your heads?

Anyway, I hope he makes a speedy recovery and we see him out there again. Best of luck next year guys, was really hoping we got to play you in the finals to make up for last year

 

[Bojangles17]

Im sorry to hear of this young blokes plight, I won't say it's tragic as it's a misguided word in describing footy injuries...where there is light there is hope...all the best in his recovery, like david shwartz and his 3 setbacks, I sincerely hope he can make something of a league career

 

[The Ghost Of Glenferrie]

I think it will be harder for him to get back mentally rather than physically. It would be so tough to stay positive.

I absolutely agree with you “justthedukes”, the speed of his return will be just as important as the injury itself - in fact I feel more so.

My wife (Doctor of Internal Medicine) believes, subject to his suitability, that Max should be operated on (utilizing LARS approach) a.s.a.p and be in training pre Christmas. Her view is based not just on the injury itself but pertains more to his psychology during rehabilitation - (her expertise in the psychology of injury is really insightful but to long to explain in this forum).

We watched the game here on the AFL Website and we showed her colleague who is an orthopedic surgeon. She was of the view that younger players who are prone to knee injuries and are sidelined for extended periods must not only complete their rehab using traditional progressive overload fitness and strengthening methods, but should also integrate competitive match play (x-training in different sports) using a stepped staged approach.

She believes that younger players who are unusually susceptible or frequently sustain knee injuries during their youth do so because their anatomical structures are often juvenile in relation to their actual body mass and when put under the stress of elite game/match play can be prone to catastrophic failure.

She believes that these ligaments and joints have to be ‘re-educated’ or developed to a greater degree than would otherwise be required in normal circumstances. She contends that many physicians make the mistake of using standardized practices and do not allow for people outside the normal standard deviation when developing their care plans.

She likened the process to the situation of over engineering a building to exceed the normal limits and loads e.g. the original WTC here in New York never was designed to have a plane hit it, but I can assure the Freedom Tower is being engineered to withstand Alien Attack.

Her theory (let's say using an NFL player) is that the injured player continues his training within his normal environment and training, however with no actual game play of any kind for the first 2-3 months - all swelling must be clear. The player then begins reintroduction to match play sports using a stepped staged approach between months 3-6 in combination with normal rehab.

In one example she sighted how an NFL player (wide receiver) under her care (2nd knee reconstruction same leg) began playing basketball games for 40-60 minutes periods, (low intensity), twice daily, every 2nd day over a two-week period whilst alternating with normal his training loads (rest included)

During Stage One the player (under direct medical observation) is not allowed to change direction or make any sudden movements that would compromise the graft whatsoever. The theory holds that this method allows for controlled bursts of speed (under stress) that help improve ligament and muscle memory rehabilitation, rather than just strength training alone.

From here the patient alternates with other sports like tennis, handball, volleyball etc at (low intensity) for another two-week period in combination with normal training loads. These sports must have no collision aspect whatsoever with the focus on controlled bursts of power in game situations, unlike traditional straight line sprinting, which as we can all attest is never like playing a competitive game

The method then rotates up in intensity over the next 8-12 weeks, whereby more and more variations in movement and stresses are introduced - but no football or contact. They believe this method rather than just normal strength and fitness training during early rehabilitation allows the ligaments supporting the knee to strengthen under controlled conditions until the patient is able to return to their chosen sport 6 months post operative. As she stated "younger players susceptible to knee injury need to teach their ligaments to work with them not just repair them at greater loads than would normally be required."

Look I'm sure the actual program is a lot more in depth, expansive and costly than I have described here, but I'm sure HFC has the resources to seek advice either at home or throughout the world.

I really hope this young man can make a go of it – as any player, Jarryd Allen, Matthew Egan, Trent Croadetc, who has a career ending injury really deserves every chance to get themselves right.

 

[borgo]

I'm gutted for Max, just gutted

 

[AC for PM]

Interesting post G.O.G - thanks for sharing

 

[grizzlym]

Good post Ghost of Glenferrie - I've heard a similar view from someone else.

I reckon Hawthorn will investigate every option with Max.

 

[busterbrowne]

I absolutely agree with you “justthedukes”, the speed of his return will be just as important as the injury itself - in fact I feel more so.

My wife (Doctor of Internal Medicine) believes, subject to his suitability, that Max should be operated on (utilizing LARS approach) a.s.a.p and be in training pre Christmas. Her view is based not just on the injury itself but pertains more to his psychology during rehabilitation - (her expertise in the psychology of injury is really insightful but to long to explain in this forum).

We watched the game here on the AFL Website and we showed her colleague who is an orthopedic surgeon. She was of the view that younger players who are prone to knee injuries and are sidelined for extended periods must not only complete their rehab using traditional progressive overload fitness and strengthening methods, but should also integrate competitive match play (x-training in different sports) using a stepped staged approach.

She believes that younger players who are unusually susceptible or frequently sustain knee injuries during their youth do so because their anatomical structures are often juvenile in relation to their actual body mass and when put under the stress of elite game/match play can be prone to catastrophic failure.

She believes that these ligaments and joints have to be ‘re-educated’ or developed to a greater degree than would otherwise be required in normal circumstances. She contends that many physicians make the mistake of using standardized practices and do not allow for people outside the normal standard deviation when developing their care plans.

She likened the process to the situation of over engineering a building to exceed the normal limits and loads e.g. the original WTC here in New York never was designed to have a plane hit it, but I can assure the Freedom Tower is being engineered to withstand Alien Attack.

Her theory (let's say using an NFL player) is that the injured player continues his training within his normal environment and training, however with no actual game play of any kind for the first 2-3 months - all swelling must be clear. The player then begins reintroduction to match play sports using a stepped staged approach between months 3-6 in combination with normal rehab.

In one example she sighted how an NFL player (wide receiver) under her care (2nd knee reconstruction same leg) began playing basketball games for 40-60 minutes periods, (low intensity), twice daily, every 2nd day over a two-week period whilst alternating with normal his training loads (rest included)

During Stage One the player (under direct medical observation) is not allowed to change direction or make any sudden movements that would compromise the graft whatsoever. The theory holds that this method allows for controlled bursts of speed (under stress) that help improve ligament and muscle memory rehabilitation, rather than just strength training alone.

From here the patient alternates with other sports like tennis, handball, volleyball etc at (low intensity) for another two-week period in combination with normal training loads. This sports have no collision aspect but as stated require controlled bursts of power in game situations, unlike traditional straight line sprinting, which as we can all attest is never like playing a competitive game

The method then rotates up in intensity over the next 8-12 weeks, whereby more and more variations in movement and stresses are introduced - but no football or contact. They believe this method rather than just normal strength and fitness training during early rehabilitation allows the ligaments supporting the knee to strengthen under controlled conditions until the patient is able to return to their chosen sport 6 months post operative. As she stated "younger players susceptible to knee injury need to teach their ligaments to work with them not just repair them at greater loads than would normally be required."

Look I'm sure the actual program is a lot more in depth and expensive than I have described here, but I'm sure HFC has the resources to seek advice either at home or throughout the world.

I really hope this young man can make a go of it – as any player, Jarryd Allen, Matthew Egan, Trent Croadetc, who has a career ending injury really deserves every chance to get themselves right.

Fascinating and insightful, GOG. Thanks. Whilst I have no doubt the Hawks specialist advice would be top notch may I suggest that you forward this overview on to the Club. My experience of specialists ( my Brother-in-Law is an oncologist) is that even the best need to have their thinking stretched at times.

Good work.

 

[Anthemy]

After EVERYTHING that has happened this year,
to me, this is the worst.

 

[Neville Bartos]

We had the chance to give Muston, Bailey (on his 2nd knee) and Boyle a different type of knee surgery (possibly a synthetic graft), but we ended up going with the boring 1 year traditional surgery. Well it doesn't look like Boyle will play for the Hawks again, Muston isn't exactly killing it and Bailey spent so long recovering that his other knee became weak.

I am not a medical expert, but goddamn they need to do some research into other techniques for Max. They can't make him wait around for another 18 months only for him to do it again. It'll ruin him.

 

[saaam]

Gutted for Max, the big fella was our hope in the ruck. I wonder whether they'll go with the alternate (Malcezski sp) graft, which from what I understand is relatively untried and doesn't have a good history of success. The current graft method is very proven and has a good degree of success.

We had the chance to give Muston, Bailey (on his 2nd knee) and Boyle a different type of knee surgery (possibly a synthetic graft), but we ended up going with the boring 1 year traditional surgery. Well it doesn't look like Boyle will play for the Hawks again, Muston isn't exactly killing it and Bailey spent so long recovering that his other knee became weak

Made his joint weak? Do some research pal, it's more likely that his genetic makeup includes a fair bit of slackness in his joints making him susceptible to this type of injury.

One positive might be that if indeed his joints genetically are 'slack' the ACL reco may remedy that and he may never have any more trouble. Fingers crossed I have a feeling big Max is not done with yet.