Maxell Gratton

[JeffDunne]

You are so far out of line on this it isn't funny. You think because we protest one thing that we have now committed ourselves to protesting against everything? We are not the political opposition. We are capable of determining good from bad and necessity from pure whimsy.

ODN, I don't dispute the rational behind Carlton relocating home games. That has never been the issue. In fact, I really couldn't care less where Carlton play their home games. I love that fact we'll probably play you twice at the dome next year.

But are you really confortable with the "process" behind this decision, let alone the rational. Aren't you concerned that the AFL would so proactively be involved, first with the appointment of Collo, and then this decision?

But again, these are issues for Carlton folk and not the problem I have with Collo and the AFL..

How can you let members decide on something that could lead to our downfall? They are not armed with the appropriate facts and nous to determine what is best. They are armed with plenty of heartfelt emotion but little appreciation of the business side of football. I put myself in this category, maintain tradition, keep our home ground, everything will be all right, after all we have been around this long, we will never die mentality. Fortunately I recognise that in myself and as such am content to allow someone with some nous to determine the right course after removing the over the top emotion from the equation.

You will also find that it is the board we are supporting not the president. For the purposes of this decision, Collo is supposedly removed from the equation so Smorgon is the go to man.

You say that supporters are sycophants and then say that the opposition is disjointed. Well who has the credibility here? Should we be supporting a disjointed opposition?

Look I sort of agree. My involvment with the CFC is indirect and has more to do with the PP community than that of Carlton. The fact the two overlap is where my interest comes into this. Collo's blatant agenda in taking the reigns at Carlton has impacts beyond the CFC.

The opposition is a rabble and will not get any support. But some of these people are passionate and some are greats of the club. One of the things I did admire with Carlton over the years has been the treatment of past champions. StKilda have played almost 500 more players than Calrton over the past one hundred years. Compare the involvment of past players from the two teams in the past and you'll understand what I'm talking about. I find it discraceful that Carlton people today are so quick to denegrate past champions that they perceive as "tarnishing the brand". And for christs sakes people, it's a football club not a fricken brand!

You will recall that we had received the spoon and had the spectre of salary cap penalties hanging over our head when Elliott was ousted so his 'dictatorial' style was not the major issue. The CarltonOne challenge at the time was well orchestrated and backed by the majority of Carlton identities and past champions. Nowhere near the same circumstances as what is happening now.

We received little FTA coverage and sponsorship at Optus so the decision is not a hard one to make. Hardly a blind decision.

So do you like autocratic regimes? Again, if that's your lot, it doesn't bother me one bit.

But can I ask you. If Collo has had nothing to with this, he has had nothing to do with the appointment of Pagan, he has failed to increase the revenue coming into the club, he has run down the clubs primary asset, he has failed to attract increased sponsorship - WTF has he done?

 

[JeffDunne]

What rubbish.

For a start, many of the people who were vocal in unseating Elliott are exactly the ones unhappy with Collo, eg Larry Abrahamson, David Carroll, John Fisher. So you're wrong that the same people are now acting like lemmings, if they were we'd not have Percy opening his doors to these idiots today would you.

Hardly the rank and file membership Deej. Some of these people (ok, most) are grandstanders that love these oppertunities. They are passionate, about what I don't know, and they are a distraction that will altumately help Collo. They distract from the bigger issue. Collo aint stupid.

Secondly what makes you think we're blindly following whatever Collo says? Believe it or not I genuinely think the move out of Princes Park is a great idea.

See you at the dome Deej. But I would have thought someone like you, full of your own clubs importance (which I know you don't dispute), would have thought the MCG a more fitting home for the Blues.

Wish Elliott could've been a bit more proactive before he decided to ******** $15million down the drain with the legends stand.

C.R.A.P. You would have cheered Elliott like the rest Deej. And if things hadden come unstuck for him, you still be cheering him. Bet you had a right old chuckle when he made his famous "rabble" comment.

I think if we can manoevre our way into all the best tv time slots ala what Eddie's done for the pies then it can only be good for the branding and growth of the club. It was actually one of the mandates i elected Collo in on, to drag us out of princes park and into the 21st century. And I don't want us playing second fiddle to anyone, i want all the best nights the Blues on national television, getting the biggest crowds in the league, attracting the best corporate backing, biggest membership, biggest profits etc. Winning flags especially. If Collo benefits from this through his stadium then good for him, the coi to me isn't important if we benefit from it and don't lose.

Deej, you care about nothing other than your own personal welfare and that of your team. You think your team is a brand, I think mine is a football club. You wouldn't understand why I object to someone like Collo.

 

[DarkRider]

I too couldn't care less where Carlton play their games, but I struggle with the logic - that has been presented a couple of times in this thread - that says the rank & file members should not have a say in the decision because they don't have the facts, are a bunch of dimwits etc, and that the board should be trusted with the call.

I would ask how you can put your faith in the board when they were elected by these same "dimwits" who you claim don't have all the facts ?

I would have thought that any "deal" that has Ian Collins name on it needs a great deal of examination.

 

[Headplant]

But are you really confortable with the "process" behind this decision, let alone the rational. Aren't you concerned that the AFL would so proactively be involved, first with the appointment of Collo, and then this decision?

The AFL was not proactively involved in his election to President .... they had no say in it ... the voting members elected him, the AFL did not appoint him.

Look I sort of agree. My involvment with the CFC is indirect and has more to do with the PP community than that of Carlton. The fact the two overlap is where my interest comes into this. Collo's blatant agenda in taking the reigns at Carlton has impacts beyond the CFC.

He was persuaded to stand for President by Carlton One. Please get your facts correct. As your admission implies, you actually had nothing to do with the election of Carlton One to the Board of CFC, as you are not a Member.

I find it discraceful that Carlton people today are so quick to denegrate past champions that they perceive as "tarnishing the brand". And for christs sakes people, it's a football club not a fricken brand!

No-one is immune from criticism simply because they played good football. Perhaps that is why the Club was great for so long, until a President arrived who believed he was immune from criticism. This is all part of the "process" of becoming a great Club.

But can I ask you. If Collo has had nothing to with this, he has had nothing to do with the appointment of Pagan, he has failed to increase the revenue coming into the club, he has run down the clubs primary asset, he has failed to attract increased sponsorship - WTF has he done?

Collo did not run the Club down. Elliot and Lofts did. If you are going to crap on as if you actually know something, at least make it sound plausible.

The Club was living at OO off ground naming rights deal negotiated 11 years ago by Collo, when Optus Oval was an attractive sponsorship proposition due to strong attendances. Or are you going to tell us that Collo arranged (while he was at AFL and TD) the building of the Legends stand against AFL advice and the termination of all 6 major Club sponsorships in the same year, 2003.

Are you also going to tell us that Marcus Rose should not have organised an arrangement for early termination of the $9M debt at around 1997 interest rates on recognition of the disastrous state of the Club's finances when he came into office? Or the saving of $300k by negotiating for the termination of the scorebaord leasing arrangemnt, which Elliot had ignored in the too hard basket while taking the AFL an all and sundry CLubs on in public rants. I guess it was Collo's fault that Elliot cheated the salary cap too. The renegotiation of player contracts to at least fit under the salary cap? The reduction of Club overheads, which forced staff reductions the CLub preferred did not need to be made to maintain financial viability?

And finally, for your education regarding corporations law, no Club membership can have a "binding vote" on any issue related to financial management of the CLub. This is the Director's moral and legal responsibility only, in accordance with the articles of constitution of the Club and Corporation Law which holds Directors personally responsible for financial decisions, and requires the Directors of the Club to not knowingly make decisions which could lead to the Club becoming insolvent. In an EGM as proposed by Gratton, any motion can only be a recommendation to the DIrectors regarding preferred inancial directions.

There is no possibility of a binding vote.

Therefore, since everyone knows what the majority of Members would prefer, OO or the G, there is NO need for an EGM to p**ss $80k of the Club's money down the toilet to feed the egos of 300 members who want to make a frivolous point, but do not realise that you can't finance a $25M per annum football Club on heritage and history. Without money there is no Club, no brand ... plenty of history, but NO FUTURE.

In other words not build a $21M stand on a gamble that one Club could fight the AFL and 15 other Clubs after advice that OO was not in the AFL's long term plans, and then try and trade on obliviously while all examinations of the books revealed that the Club was around 12 months away from insolvency.

This was the scenario which greeted Carlton One when they were elected, confirmed by an independent accountant.

So go look after your own Club and don't lecture us about our President's behaviour when you have demonstrated you have no idea regarding the state of our CLub's finances then or now, as you clearly have not seen our annual reports or you would not be making such ridiculously erroneous claims.

Oh, and one other thing .... are you now going to suggest that CFC and not the AFL control the draw, and therefore CFC could play 11 home games at the G if they wish? Not even moneybags Eddie can arrange that. Try checking the draw. The MCG has the minimum requirement of 41 games as dictated by the contract with the AFL.

And ask Rod Butters and Grant Thomas how they feel about the possibility of misbehaving players tarnishing the St Kilda brand.

 

[JeffDunne]

Headplant, back up a minute mate.

Firstly, where did I say the AFL appointed Collo? Read it again and take out the dictionary. Pardon my spelling if I dropped a letter or two.

Yes, the members did appoint Collo. And when they did they confirmed the move to TD. The "announcement" recently was merely a formality. Gee we where all really surprised. For christs sake are you all that stupid?

Collo only joined after getting the ok from the AFL. Don't believe me, but I can assure you Collo spoke to members of the commission and the AFL itself to establish their position BEFORE accepting the position.

Do Carlton supporters actually read what I write, or is the indignation of a StKilda supporter commenting on Carlton just a little too much to take?

Now where have I said that the members should support this clown (M.G.)? Where have I said that Carlton should play at Optus? Where did I say there should even be a vote? Do you people just think there are just two positions within key supporters of the club? Most that oppose Collo aren't oppossed to a move. Some withdrew their (financial) support the minute Collo took over.

Don't lecture me on corporations law when I didn't even make mention of a vote. I am on the board of eight companies here and Malaysia and have enough accountants to lecture me.

You guys are all upset about $80K (a figure plucked out of Collo's arse), when the guy has cost the club far more in lost corporate support from individuals who are personal friends of mine. I don't care about Elliott and what he did to the club, I'M TALKING ABOUT IAN COLLINS!!! Tell me, what has he actually done?

I really don't give a hoot about the inner workings of the CFC. They could go to the wall for all I care. Princes Park though is not just Carlton's and it is not just a Carlton issue. This was all decided when you voted for conflict Collo. Bit like the GST was inevitable when little Johnnie got voted in. But again, are you all really that stupid?

 

[Headplant]

Collo only joined after getting the ok from the AFL. Don't believe me, but I can assure you Collo spoke to members of the commission and the AFL itself to establish their position BEFORE accepting the position.
.

I woukd not describe that as proactive on the AFL's behalf. Collo went to them. So why use the language you used? and it ahs nothign to do with any fixation re St Kilda, I actually love the way they are travelling (or were earlier in the season, and again of late).

You guys are all upset about $80K (a figure plucked out of Collo's arse), when the guy has cost the club far more in lost corporate support from individuals who are personal friends of mine. I don't care about Elliott and what he did to the club, I'M TALKING ABOUT IAN COLLINS!!! Tell me, what has he actually done?

I have told you what he has done for the Club. And the $80k is niot puklkeld out of his arse, it is what te last EGMs cost as Elliot was so find of broadcasting, confrimed personally to me by Marcus Rose this evening.

 

[JeffDunne]

I woukd not describe that as proactive on the AFL's behalf. Collo went to them. So why use the language you used? and it ahs nothign to do with any fixation re St Kilda, I actually love the way they are travelling (or were earlier in the season, and again of late).

Collo said at the time that he wouldn't take the position unless it was endorsed by the AFL. It was not only endorsed, the AFL actively encouraged him when he was dithering on the issue.

Why do you think Collo was so stunned with the penalty they meated out?

 

[Headplant]

Why do you think Collo was so stunned with the penalty they meated out?

Because the AFL reneged on their agreement re the salary cap penalties, which had Collo put forward Bradely and SOS.

 

[JeffDunne]

Because the AFL reneged on their agreement re the salary cap penalties, which had Collo put forward Bradely and SOS.

There was no agreement.

I'm not sure given their time over, SOS and Braddles would be so niave. They were used by the board. But they had it comming.

 

[Headplant]

Most that oppose Collo aren't oppossed to a move. Some withdrew their (financial) support the minute Collo took over.
?

I would suggest this statament says more about your friends than it does about Collo, given the knowledge of the state of the Club when he took over, and Elliot's refusal to acknowledge there was a problem, and his supporters backing him despite the overwhelming evidence of how bad he had been for the CLub for 10 years, including Fitzpatrick leaving in disgust after 1995 when he found he could not gain a return to proper corporate governance. SO please don't lecture me re the finances of my Club, no matter how many Boards on which you serve.

 

[Headplant]

There was no agreement.
.

The was an agreement between Collo and Demetriou. This was forced to be broken at the Club President's ,eeting in the week leading up to the draft, when they other 15 Presidents stayed on after Collo left the meeting with Evans and Jackson. This is confirmed by various sources around the CLub, as well as by Caro's articles which alluded to the deal, but she always said the Presidents wanted our picks..

This is why Collo was so angry with Demetriou.

 

[Headplant]

There was no agreement.

I'm not sure given their time over, SOS and Braddles would be so niave. They were used by the board. But they had it comming.

They knew what they were doing, SOS did it to help out because he knew Elliot had to be removed.

 

[JeffDunne]

I would suggest this statament says more about your friends than it does about Collo, given the knowledge of the state of the Club when he took over, and Elliot's refusal to acknowledge there was a problem, and his supporters backing him despite the overwhelming evidence of how bad he had been for the CLub for 10 years, including Fitzpatrick leaving in disgust after 1995 when he found he could not gain a return to proper corporate governance. SO please don't lecture me re the finances of my Club, no matter how many Boards on which you serve.

Again, to oppose Collo is not supporting Elliott. They are two seperate issues. JE should have gone long before he did. The funny thing is that the entire football world relised this except the Carlton membership. When he was rorting the system and thumbing his nose at the AFL, you guys couldn't cheer him load enough.

Having said that. The best decision Carlton have made in the past 5 years was the appointment of Pagan. He at least made one decent decision before getting the boot.

My friends you talk of so disparagingly, many are forth generation blues. Their families helped build that club. They are as much a part of Princes Hill/Park as the football club.

 

[JeffDunne]

The was an agreement between Collo and Demetriou. This was forced to be broken at the Club President's ,eeting in the week leading up to the draft, when they other 15 Presidents stayed on after Collo left the meeting with Evans and Jackson. This is confirmed by various sources around the CLub, as well as by Caro's articles which alluded to the deal, but she always said the Presidents wanted our picks..

This is why Collo was so angry with Demetriou.

You use the term agreement loosly.

Having been given an indication that a particular course of action might result in a more favorable outcome - this hardly constitutes an agreement. It was never Demetriou's decision alone anyhow.

Now don't start thinking I support Andrew.

 

[JeffDunne]

They knew what they were doing, SOS did it to help out because he knew Elliot had to be removed.

LOL - not a bright spark is SOS.

SOS knew all along what Elliott was up to. He was one of the main beneficaries. Of course he knew he had to be removed - but the problem with SOS, he didn't realise he also had to be removed!

 

[Headplant]

Collo was given more than an indication ... he was given the terms, penalties and fines, with endorsement by the appropriate people (backroom of course for that is the way the AFL operates). But they did not hold firm as they should against most of the other CLubs who hated Elliot and saw this as an opportunity to exact revenge and gain advantage. Leigh Matthews and Tony Shaw had the take on the nature of the penalties enacted. ANd now the other CLubs know they cannot squeal too much about AFL compensation for our move because they know they contributed to our problems in 2002. They also know from our supporter base that they too are affected if we stay in financial difficulty for long ... because our large supporter base adds to all the Melbourne Clubs coffers disproportionately with respect to their own followings, except for Essendon and Collingwood. In this respect all CLubs are reasonably pragmatic, and I unfortunately and unhappily find myself agreeing with one of Eddie's positions, for in this he is right ... if our Club goes to the wall, other Melbourne Clubs will follow. ANd we know which 2.

LOL - not a bright spark is SOS.

SOS knew all along what Elliott was up to. He was one of the main beneficaries. Of course he knew he had to be removed - but the problem with SOS, he didn't realise he also had to be removed!

Yes SOS knew what was going on ... he also knew that Elliot abused the fact that SOS would do anything to help the CLub out. Elliot had his favourites, and SOS was not one of them because SOS was not an ELliot man. He was not a beneficiary, like Kouta or Lance or Campo or Fraser Brown or Glen Manton for the classic overpaid one.

I am a Carlton generation man, I have a photo of my grandfather at training with the Blues around 1917 or so, so that line does not work on me. I full well know that some Carlton people held grudges against Collo because they wrongly felt he sold the CLub out when he went to the AFL and reported us for cheating ... he also arranged an amnesty shortly after where all our sins could be publicly forgiven, but this they conveniently forget (and we know what Essendon did with the amnesty re Ron Evans' serial cheating ... nothing). Collo arrranged our fantastic Optus 10 year sponsorship in 1992.


Please don't sprout this rubbish about Collo because some people hold personal vendettas against him. I full well know what is going on around the CLub, and how successful the CLub was for so many years under his management (not Elliot's). It is no coincidence that the Club began to slide after he left and Elliot ran out of control with none of his cronies opposing his schemes.

ANd you ignore the fact that there were many supporters who despised the man but knew he was entrenched, which was why so many recognised the opportunity a poor season gave for us finally to show the many (not majority, for most are complacent or reluctant, as is the human condition) who loved his unjustified arrogance why he had to go.

THIS is why COllo came back. he is a Carlton man, those of us who understand him know that. I would suggest your people with their vendettas wake up and take a look at the CLub .. for they are missing an exciting time.

If they pulled out when Collo came back, I would hardly describe them as Carlton supporters.

if you think he can override the current Board members you do not know much about them.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Maxwell Gratton ..... seems like the Blues have got their very own Michael Pahoff.

 

[JeffDunne]

Collo was given more than an indication ... he was given the terms, penalties and fines, with endorsement by the appropriate people (backroom of course for that is the way the AFL operates).

You blue boys really are a piece of work. That quote typifies the culture of your club.

How in the f*** is a non-binding, undocumented "agreement" that is contrary to the rules of the game something the club should be hanging their hat on? The commission had to rule on this. Why the **** should the other 15 teams allow some "backroom" agreement that had no transperancy?

You guys don't have a problem with cheating. It is ingrained into your physche. As long as whatever is going down suits Carlton or is being done to advantage you, its all AOK! Are you seriously happy, given your knowledge that Collins dug the club in deeper, that he would make such decisions based on non-binding non-legal agreements?

But they did not hold firm as they should against most of the other CLubs who hated Elliot and saw this as an opportunity to exact revenge and gain advantage. Leigh Matthews and Tony Shaw had the take on the nature of the penalties enacted. ANd now the other CLubs know they cannot squeal too much about AFL compensation for our move because they know they contributed to our problems in 2002. They also know from our supporter base that they too are affected if we stay in financial difficulty for long ... because our large supporter base adds to all the Melbourne Clubs coffers disproportionately with respect to their own followings, except for Essendon and Collingwood. In this respect all CLubs are reasonably pragmatic, and I unfortunately and unhappily find myself agreeing with one of Eddie's positions, for in this he is right ... if our Club goes to the wall, other Melbourne Clubs will follow. ANd we know which 2.

Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Another question: If you supporter base is so big, running the club cash-flow positive should be a monty. And I agree it should be. Again given this knowledge you support Collo who is unable to even attract a sponsor?

Don't mention "tarnishing the brand" or I'll fricken spew.

Yes SOS knew what was going on ... he also knew that Elliot abused the fact that SOS would do anything to help the CLub out. Elliot had his favourites, and SOS was not one of them because SOS was not an ELliot man. He was not a beneficiary, like Kouta or Lance or Campo or Fraser Brown or Glen Manton for the classic overpaid one.

See tooth fairy question above.

See also comments re: how bright SOS is.

I am a Carlton generation man, I have a photo of my grandfather at training with the Blues around 1917 or so, so that line does not work on me. I full well know that some Carlton people held grudges against Collo because they wrongly felt he sold the CLub out when he went to the AFL and reported us for cheating ... he also arranged an amnesty shortly after where all our sins could be publicly forgiven, but this they conveniently forget (and we know what Essendon did with the amnesty re Ron Evans' serial cheating ... nothing). Collo arrranged our fantastic Optus 10 year sponsorship in 1992.

Again, no problem with the rorting - as long it's our rort!

THIS is why COllo came back. he is a Carlton man, those of us who understand him know that. I would suggest your people with their vendettas wake up and take a look at the CLub .. for they are missing an exciting time.

No Collo is a Collins man.

If they pulled out when Collo came back, I would hardly describe them as Carlton supporters.

Sticks and stones Heady. I'm sure they still draw more $$$'s into the club than you. Personal donations aside.

if you think he can override the current Board members you do not know much about them.

I don't. Should I say they don't. Nobody can. That is the problem.

 

[Headplant]

What you clearly do not know mate, is that when Collo came back, so did a lot of coterie people who had left because of Elliot.

Your statements re our Club's finances show you have no idea.

We had 6 sponsorship agreements run out at the end of 2003. We run a ground by ourselves. Optus renewed the ground sponsorship, but for sifnificantly less money. Only Carlton members go to games at OO, and this has been decreasing every year. There has been no maintenance on the ground infrastructure for years. It is OO which is the chain around the finances. And the inability to attract sponsorship at a venue which attracted no free to air TV, is run oiwn, and only gets about 25k crowds. Specially when our CLub was sitting on a $9M debt, which has been drasticly reduced to reduce some of the financial overheads. Cashflow is still a major problem.
Well, big deal.

I suggest you stick to what you do know in the financial scene, rather than making things up. Your demonstration on what is needed to run a football Club so far has been singularly unimpressive. I would have thought that would be easy for a guy sitting on so many Boards to realise, but perhapos that his a little to do with your obvious dislike of our CLub.


Now, as for your statement that we love cheating and the other crap, well I'll give that the contempt it deserves. Misrepresentation doesn't deserve an answer.

 

[Headplant]

Maxwell Gratton ..... seems like the Blues have got their very own Michael Pahoff.

Rather. When we suggested that he pay for an EGM if he wants to call one and his motion is defeated, his reply was "we are under no legal obligation to do so".

So we pointed out that he was under no legal obligation to call one.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Rather. When we suggested that he pay for an EGM if he wants to call one and his motion is defeated, his reply was "we are under no legal obligation to do so".

So we pointed out that he was under no legal obligation to call one.

Lovely work, HP.

 

[JeffDunne]

Look I don't mean to sound condescending, but do you guys recite this stuff from a script?

Can you differentiate between someone criticising Collo and someone supporting Elliott? The way you link everything back to JE suggests you can't.

BTW, what am I making up? The fact he's been unable to attract a major sponsor? Do you think Collo's constant public crticism of PP has added value to the naming rights agreement? Or did I just imagine that?

I repeat, I don't give a toss how Carlton are run or where they play their games. I was rapt when he moved your home game against us to the dome. I am more than happy for us to play you twice there next year.

As for whether the move makes sense or not - of course it does, the AFL are underwriting it. That I have a problem with.

 

[True_Blue]

Can you differentiate between someone criticising Collo and someone supporting Elliott? The way you link everything back to JE suggests you can't.

Hey Jack ran the place for 20 years so I'd say he takes full responsibility and tried to bullied the members and anyone who disagreed with him.
Only 1 bloke who would stand up to him Collo.
Collo is 10 times the president Elliott ever way has reduced a 8 Million debit to 1.68 million in 18 months.

BTW, what am I making up? The fact he's been unable to attract a major sponsor? Do you think Collo's constant public crticism of PP has added value to the naming rights agreement? Or did I just imagine that?

Collo has NEVER publicly criterseized PP if so give me a link?.
As for a major sponsorship it doesn't help that PP hasn't had 1 FTA game and that our average crowd is 18 - 22 k so you can't f*****g blame Collo, That the place that no one wants to attend.

I repeat, I don't give a toss how Carlton are run or where they play their games. I was rapt when he moved your home game against us to the dome. I am more than happy for us to play you twice there next year.

Well for someone that doesn't give a toss your posting a lot in this thread.
Would you r*ped to play us at the G out in the weather!!!!!

 

[Headplant]

Jeff, just because you have a few ex coterie cronies as your mates doesn't give you a handle on what's going on at our CLub, specially from overseas.

What I am criticising is you acting as if you know the ins and outs of our CLub, whch you clearly do not based upon your comments here, and criticism of Collo based upon limited knowledge and false assumptions.

Now I know for fact that your claims about him having done nothing for the Club is total garbage. In fact most of what you have said about our financial situation is incorrect. About the one thing you got right is that a few coterie member pulled out when Collins came in .. but a hell of a lot more came back. This too I know for fact. As a Member I take it upon myself to find out what is happening at my Club ... particularly when ignorant tossers like Max Gratton come around spreading bull******** regarding his own agenda and trying to waste our Club's money.

Collo has never made statements running down OO, but he has told the truth to the Members regarding the unpopularity of the place. He has to, because it is the truth, and the Club has to move.

You seem to have a personal vendetta against Collo, for your claims regarding his influence and impact at the Club are simply not correct.

So if you want credibility, I would suggest you stick to things about which you have better knowledge.

Also, my understanding is that the AFL underwriting is actually financed by ch 7 ... TD arrangements are not always what they seem, due to the complex nature of the stadium corporate structure.

However, the AFL wants more games there because it benfits financially.

And it was you who blamed the Elliot created problems on Collo. If you were a bit more objective you would realise I was directly answering your own comment that Collo was responsible for Carlton's financial problems, which were created by Elliot's poor financial management since 1995. Or do you think you can make such claims and not be pulled up on it? Or is deliberate mis-interpretation for dramatc effect just your writing style?

 

[Headplant]

Lovely work, HP.

Not sure what you guys ar doing about Pahoff Ghost, but we (on our Fan Forums TBV and CSC) took one look at Gratton and decided we had to come out proactively and publicly support the Board and show perhaps indecisive or out of touch members that what he was doing is total rubbish as far as a significant group of members is concerned.

of course, I'm not sure what the real situation is at Richmond, but I hope you guys get some stabilty back. i didn't get much pleasure from the low morale of the Richmond fans when we played you at TD.