Coach Michael Voss

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Dinns and Bow aren't keeping the ball inside 50.

Would like them to get a game this year but not for Martin, Fog or Cuners on current form.

I was giving examples of other players who could have replaced underperforming players in the side, not the forward 50 exclusively.

 

[Arr0w]

Jacob weitering did an interview with SEN this morning I always find his content as open and truthful as any footballer doing interviews --

Have a listen makes all the guessing going on and this thread redundant ..

“His mood didn’t change a whole lot. His mood stayed the same whether we won or lost. He applied as much confidence in us during the losing streak as he has with us in the last month."

Never too high, never too low

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I think the improvement has mainly been around confidence lifting, prime movers being fit and over niggles and getting scoreboard reward for their efforts.

To claim we changed the game plan totally would be also claiming that it happened at exactly quarter time of the GC game, as the first quarter was the same as the previous 2 months.

You could see the confidence/intensity/belief all return as soon as we started to dominate clearances and centre bounces and got some scoreboard reward. Everything flowed from there; as the players were getting “nourishment”.

Intensity, effort and self preservation took hold previously as it was like banging our heads against a brick wall for 6-8 goals a game; when you get no reward for effort, you drop off.

In terms of changes; it’s been a focus to target players in better positions and get more players involved. No more 3-4 guys with 30+ and our small and medium forward getting 3-7 touches a game.

Martin has been more involved than he has been in games since 2020. Cuningham too, often the types of players we have you forget are out there for a quarter or two.

I think there were things we were trying to change in previous weeks, but we were in a rut and it took a while to click. And often when it rains it pours.

Overall I do think we over corrected being defensive this year, but if what we have seen the last 3 weeks holds it looks like we can have the best of both worlds, a side that can attack and kick decent scores and solid defensively. If this was first half of last year, at least 2 of the 3 games we have played recently would of resulted in swings from us leading by 40-50 to just holding on to win.

I don't think we changed the game plan totally. I think we simplified aspects of it.

If what you are saying is true and the players just found confidence, then where was that confidence when we were 3 wins and 1 draw in the first month? Why did it disappear suddenly against Adelaide, come back against the Eagles and disappear for 6 weeks, before returning?

Could it leave again as soon as we are threatened? It doesn't feel very sustainable and doesn't seem to be able to support the next man in mantra.

There has to be more to it than that.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Jacob weitering did an interview with SEN this morning I always find his content as open and truthful as any footballer doing interviews --

Have a listen makes all the guessing going on and this thread redundant ..

I honestly don't mind posters/supporters here going off and venting against Voss and his game plan, especially during our 6 game losing streak, in some parts I agreed with them and agreed with their frustration, but I really feel annoyed at those who spread (in hindsight unfounded and baseless) baseless rumours about factions in the playing group and half the camp was pro Voss or anti Voss.

I half suspect it was from those kind of baseless rumours where we also started seeing bad blood on this board and this thread

Fundamentally, this is what is morally and ethically wrong with spreading rumours without any kind of tangible proof/evidence.

This whole I heard from a mate, who is married to the cousin of the boot studder at the club Chinese Whispers stuff is something I cannot take seriously anymore

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Weitering said weeks ago that the players


I don't think we changed the game plan totally. I think we simplified aspects of it.

If what you are saying is true and the players just found confidence, then where was that confidence when we were 3 wins and 1 draw in the first month? Why did it disappear suddenly against Adelaide, come back against the Eagles and disappear for 6 weeks, before returning?

Could it leave again as soon as we are threatened? It doesn't feel very sustainable and doesn't seem to be able to support the next man in mantra.

There has to be more to it than that.

Cripps, Weitering and several other of our key players were either carrying injury or psychological issues (in Weits case totally understandable) during that losing streak you mentioned.

Also Harry during that time was struggling with hitting the scoreboard in that time, and many here were calling him to be dropped to the VFL (which I think would have been a massive mistake) and now Big H seems to have gotten his mojo and confidence back.

No point looking backwards (we can't change anything about it), just believe we can hope and believe our current form is sustainable.

We beat Port on Saturday, we are more likely than not going to play finals..

 

[JustOneTime]

Well we can’t prove what would of happened if we left Cripps out. My guess is the side was playing so poorly we’d have lost all those games still, possibly by more.

No one was playing well in the midfield at that time aside from Cerra.

True. But is that beside the real point here. Kennedy was left out by Teague forever and a day and then rookied as a result. The truth was Kennedy was a decent player never used for a couple of seasons. A 100% fit Kennedy surely was value over a struggling midfielder banged up on field.

Potentially Carlton are missing a trick. Not trusting their squad an not resting a banged up player so he can refresh and perform.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Think your a month behind whats going on there pal.

 

[Countryblueswitnotattoos]

“His mood didn’t change a whole lot. His mood stayed the same whether we won or lost. He applied as much confidence in us during the losing streak as he has with us in the last month."

If that is true, it is bloody amazing and a credit to the man. They definitely won't be printing that on my tombstone

 

[JustOneTime]

Think your a month behind whats going on there pal.

Not really. The linked perspective is a player like fogarty was tried after we hit an all time low and our season was dusted. He wasnt ever considered prior to us hitting rock bottom.

Same for Dow being a sub.

Martin/Cuners are different propositions as they were returning from injury and always going to be tried in our best 22.

 

[lily of laguna]

Not really. The linked perspective is a player like fogarty was tried after we hit an all time low and our season was dusted. He wasnt ever considered prior to us hitting rock bottom.

Same for Dow being a sub.

Martin/Cuners are different propositions as they were returning from injury and always going to be tried in our best 22.

We just don’t know the full story though.
Fog himself said that coming back from back surgery he needed time playing in the 2’s.
He needed to get trust in his body and have a block of games to get some continuity.

We are observing things from a limited understanding of conversations, player development, fitness plans, team balance and form etc .

I feel the same with Gov, his injury history and inability to play injured has meant that his return to form has been extremely gradual. He has some great ‘weapons’ but confidence in his body, team balance, structures etc have meant that what we see on game day is below his best.

It infuriates us as passionate blues members but we need to understand that without all the knowledge at hand our assumptions are inaccurate.




On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Blue and Blue]

Not really. The linked perspective is a player like fogarty was tried after we hit an all time low and our season was dusted. He wasnt ever considered prior to us hitting rock bottom.

Same for Dow being a sub.

Martin/Cuners are different propositions as they were returning from injury and always going to be tried in our best 22.

Fogarty was also injured came in after a short spell in reserves.
But the point I made is that your dragging up stuff thats old. Move on.

 

[Earls Smother]

Jacob weitering did an interview with SEN this morning I always find his content as open and truthful as any footballer doing interviews --

Have a listen makes all the guessing going on and this thread redundant ..

Interesting who he doesn't mention.

“The chemistry I’ve built with Brodie Kemp and Mitch McGovern, just the consistency we’ve got in the backline now, we’ve got some guys that really want to compete and the pressure we’ve got up the field is allowing some dirty ball to come my way and I can just go up and clunk it.

 

[JustaBattler]

Interesting who he doesn't mention.

“The chemistry I’ve built with Brodie Kemp and Mitch McGovern, just the consistency we’ve got in the backline now, we’ve got some guys that really want to compete and the pressure we’ve got up the field is allowing some dirty ball to come my way and I can just go up and clunk it.

Young gets flustered way too easily.

 

[GeorgieBoyBlue2]

I think it’s just a reminder we aren’t owed any success and to enjoy whenever we are winning.

It’s a bloody tough competition, 18 and soon to be 19 sides, flags are more hard to win than ever.

All you can do is aim to be the best club you can be on and off the field and get in positions consistently to contend, like Collingwood, Geelong and Swans have done regularly this century.

It’s entirely possible we won’t win a flag this decade, I’d say on a list of probabilities it’s likely we won’t. Funnily enough I am ok with that, all or nothing thinking won’t do anyone any good I don’t think.

We can still be successful and keep building the club back to where we want to be. It’s not like we must win a flag with current group or we all shoot ourselves.

Went a bit off topic, just wanted to get a bit more perspective to where I think we are at and how I now look at things.

Aiming to be like Collingwood, Geelong and Sydney.... Brisbane, Hawthorn and Richmond are the benchmarks of how teams should be built, I would have thought 3peats count for something....

 

[BlueGum]

I was giving examples of other players who could have replaced underperforming players in the side, not the forward 50 exclusively.

Still there remains the question, who do they replace? Binns would have been a possibility for LOB or Hollands, but I can't see who for now. And Dow mustn't have had a suitable POD over the other mids for whatever the midfield plan was. That might have changed over the last few weeks. We'll find out now that Kennedy is injured. Based on the preference for experienced and strong in the contest players... Hewett more likely.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Still there remains the question, who do they replace? Binns would have been a possibility for LOB or Hollands, but I can't see who for now. And Dow mustn't have had a suitable POD over the other mids for whatever the midfield plan was. That might have changed over the last few weeks. We'll find out now that Kennedy is injured. Based on the preference for experienced and strong in the contest players... Hewett more likely.

They don't replace anybody now, but back when everyone was struggling, they could have replaced anybody but Cerra on form.

 

[Blue1980]

I don't think we changed the game plan totally. I think we simplified aspects of it.

If what you are saying is true and the players just found confidence, then where was that confidence when we were 3 wins and 1 draw in the first month? Why did it disappear suddenly against Adelaide, come back against the Eagles and disappear for 6 weeks, before returning?

Could it leave again as soon as we are threatened? It doesn't feel very sustainable and doesn't seem to be able to support the next man in mantra.

There has to be more to it than that.

To the above, I have no idea. It could disappear again, we could be jumped by port and lose by 10 goals then be terrible the rest of the year.

I do think that what happened v Adelaide was brewing even rounds 1-4. We hadn’t hit our stride or any great form, and when we got belted v crows all the scars of late last year and previous years failure all piled up on them.

I do think aspects of the way we play have changed, but the main aspect is everything has clicked into gear once we begin to get reward for effort. The pleasing thing so far is our defensive structures which we have been bedding down and held up largely even in terrible performances, have still held strong and we haven’t been copping wild swings in games like last year.

So hopefully the fact we have been able to come through the other side with these wins, and if it continues it will be a real step forward for the whole club. It will build trust that when times get tough again, if we work hard and stick together we will get through it.

But yes I think we had overcooked the defensive side of things too much early on and got ourselves into a rut, but that was compounded by guys like Cripps, Walsh, Hewett and kennedy having niggles or limited pre seasons.

Also the competition is so even, from 5th to 15th there isn’t a huge amount of difference, sides are going in and out of form all the time and narratives around teams change week to week.

 

[Blue1980]

Agree re: flag this decade, they're bloody hard to win as you say.

What I think is a non-negotiable is competitiveness and finals for a multi-year period, and I'd be pretty disappointed if they didn't give top 4 a shake at some stage before 2030. Failing to make top 8 at all in that time would be a categorical and spectacular failure imo - and I wouldn't put it past us lol

Yes, I am hopeful of a period of time where we are a finals team and then if we can get a bit of luck with injury, recruit well, once you get top 4 you’re a chance.

 

[Blue1980]

Aiming to be like Collingwood, Geelong and Sydney.... Brisbane, Hawthorn and Richmond are the benchmarks of how teams should be built, I would have thought 3peats count for something....

Not saying they don’t count, but they are bloody hard to come by. I’d love us to win the flag every year, but it isn’t going to happen is it.

More the point, we just need to keep improving as an overall club, and not just be thinking of this current group of players. We should be looking at setting ourselves up to be like the clubs always there or thereabouts, with great leadership on and off the field which is passed down from one generation to the next.

You do that and success should follow. However if we don’t win flags, I’m not going to be fatalistic about it.

 

[BlueGum]

They don't replace anybody now, but back when everyone was struggling, they could have replaced anybody but Cerra on form.

That's a bit general. Conversation over.

 

[no fate]

I agree with others that suggest this last 3 rounds could be the making of the group. From adversity comes strength. From mediocrity comes more mediocrity. In other words, teams with around 50/50 W/L can easily go on thinking they are not far away and continue the status quo. When you lose 6 in a row (all badly), there's nowhere to hide, and no-one can dispute the need for change.

I've been to almost all our home games this season and watched most of the other games. First 4 rounds were unconvincing, dour footy and felt lucky each week to not have lost. Felt like something bad was coming and oh boy was it ever. Next 9 rounds atrocious, excepting one win vs. a generationally bad WCE team. Stuck fast to the same failure mode combination of game plan and team selection throughout, but after the appalling loss to *, first 13 rounds were a failure which could no longer be denied. Coach and players had to stand up and face up to the challenge, and collectively they have done that. New players in the mix and a new game style far from the old. Clearly shows what is (and was all along) possible.

Where to from here, I don't know. I hope this will mean all of the following: 1) More team spirit/unselfish play/sacrifice. 2) More (sustainable) confidence/less fear of failure from the players. 3) Less stubbornness and hubris/more flexibility and openness from the coaches. Time will tell, but it seems clear these can be the building blocks for success.

Unless memory fails me, we haven't won 3 games in a row under full control of the opposition for more than a decade. Poor opposition maybe, but undeniably something different from our boys. With a newfound sense of optimism (rare in the last 20 years following this club) I am looking forward to taking it up to Port this week, and the rest of the season. If we make finals great, but if we don't so be it - it's finding the combination of players and game plan we can reliably build on for next year that's important anyway. Premiership would sure be nice, but this was always the year to sow. Hopefully next year, we can reap.

 

[Blue1980]

True. But is that beside the real point here. Kennedy was left out by Teague forever and a day and then rookied as a result. The truth was Kennedy was a decent player never used for a couple of seasons. A 100% fit Kennedy surely was value over a struggling midfielder banged up on field.

Potentially Carlton are missing a trick. Not trusting their squad an not resting a banged up player so he can refresh and perform.

Kennedy played all of 2nd half of 2021 under Teague

 

[Earls Smother]

I think the improvement has mainly been around confidence lifting, prime movers being fit and over niggles and getting scoreboard reward for their efforts.

To claim we changed the game plan totally would be also claiming that it happened at exactly quarter time of the GC game, as the first quarter was the same as the previous 2 months.

You could see the confidence/intensity/belief all return as soon as we started to dominate clearances and centre bounces and got some scoreboard reward. Everything flowed from there; as the players were getting “nourishment”.

Intensity, effort and self preservation took hold previously as it was like banging our heads against a brick wall for 6-8 goals a game; when you get no reward for effort, you drop off.

In terms of changes; it’s been a focus to target players in better positions and get more players involved. No more 3-4 guys with 30+ and our small and medium forward getting 3-7 touches a game.

Martin has been more involved than he has been in games since 2020. Cuningham too, often the types of players we have you forget are out there for a quarter or two.

I think there were things we were trying to change in previous weeks, but we were in a rut and it took a while to click. And often when it rains it pours.

Overall I do think we over corrected being defensive this year, but if what we have seen the last 3 weeks holds it looks like we can have the best of both worlds, a side that can attack and kick decent scores and solid defensively. If this was first half of last year, at least 2 of the 3 games we have played recently would of resulted in swings from us leading by 40-50 to just holding on to win.

It's ironic that we have been defensively good (scoreboard-wise) and yet Voss blasted the players after one game for their poor defensive game. We didn't score much that game (can't remember which one), but neither did they.

I think we spent a lot of the preseason learning how to be better defensively when WE had the ball. Chipping it around, taking the heat out of opposition momentum phases. This would be a natural reaction to the way we lost games late season, but also from when we just held on earlier last year.

We then seemed to play disjointed footy, even when winning early on. Some seemed to want to play the "slow" tempo too often, when the game didn't call for it. The Saints game was terrible in this aspect. There is no way Voss instructed players not to run aggressively - either to provide attacking overlap, or to provide defensive heat and shut down space. It looked at times like we had 3 blokes prepared to run aggressively to overlap - Saad, Walsh (when he returned) and Doc. All copped criticism. Saad running past on his wrong foot, Walsh racking up meaningless stats running behind players, and Doc being hurried into poor disposals too often. The trouble was, they didn't have enough others running with them.

The same with the defensive running - too much was left to too few. I'm sure Voss and the coaches would have expected a level of intent when THEY had the ball, as a given. You shouldn't need to "coach" this, it is an attitude thing. This is what seemed to have let us down. Our backline held up well, so the forwards and midfield should shoulder most blame. Certain forward types have been left out and replaced by better options. The mids have got fitter and some extra rotations added - again, as player types allowed due to availability. Certainly the attack from defence has improved with quicker players becoming available.

As you said, to believe that Voss has changed his game plan, is to believe at quarter time in the Gold Coast game, he suddenly told them to start running with intent both ways, whereas he previously was instructing them not to.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

That's a bit general. Conversation over.

Selection issues were across the board. I banged on about Kemp and Cincotta needing to come in and when they did, they got dropped again. I feel like we trusted the players that went well last year for a few weeks too long, that's all.

Hewitt, Young, Fisher, Motlop. All got more games than they deserved at that stage.

I wasn't debating your support for Fog or anything else. I was merely saying that reworking the side earlier may have helped sooner. Vossy has no issue playing certain players put of position so even if some weren't available, we could have reinvented some spots.

I do feel like we are lacking depth in some areas if we are relying on injury prone players to get back.

Conversation restarted?

 

[JustOneTime]

I think the close losses late last season distorted both voss and the players mindset and coaching for 2023. That and the incessant media feedback that we had no counter attack game, only stoppages.

We invested heavily in trying to develop a counter attack game from defence , and also game control of going slow for those moments late in quarters and games, or to stop run-ons. I think that was our pre-season development and then the season 2023 was all about frenetic attack and run by other sides and overlap.

Carlton stuck at it and were stubborn. That stubbornness got us to 15th. Since that time, with all the pressure off, they have reverted to attacking with intensity plus an increase in run from the defenders creating more chains. Basically seems like a simplistic change to a more attacking mindset and leave tempo behind except for late game.

I think the losses including kicking points from hard angles, kicking down one wing only, poor stoppages, poor inside 50 delivery were all systems of a crap 'control' and 'counter attack gameplan'. The midfielders so strong last year were just poor this year complicating everything.

I think without hanging vossy out to dry too far (cost us the 2023 year but im ok with him again next year) then this is what Voss is accountable for. Deciding direction, intensity and gameplan. When the mids were in poor form he had an early choice available to him in Cerra. He could have pulled the trigger on Dow if he had of wanted to try. A 100% fit and in form Dow vs an out of form and unfit Cripps. Not trying meant we never even got to see if our season could have been righted sooner.

Picking a completely cooked Ed Curnow. Not dealing with Motlop who was refusing to tackle. Slow to get rid of young.