The same Richmond that dumped manure at Punt Rd and microwave their memberships?
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Opinion Mick Malthouse
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The important thing for Carlton is that is has no delusions and has direction. Delusions and a lack of direction along with some exceptionally bad recruiting are the reason we are where we are. Carlton thinking it was a decent team and a top 4 team killed us. Holding onto some average types who should have been traded. Drafting a few rejects from other clubs instead of talented youth in the draft to fill holes. Carlton hasn't been within cooee of a premiership since 2000 and even then we were too overly dependent on one individual. Carlton hiring Malthouse to win a premiership, they must have really sold themselves well because he like any good experienced coach walked in and soon found we weren't close and needed a rebuild. Whether it was the board or Ratten or who ever thought that we were good enough to be a top 4 side, they are the one who need kicking up the arse over where we currently are because it was that whole delusion that has got us into this mess, this and our drafting.
The only thing we can do about it is sit on the bottom of the ladder for a while and have as big of an intake of young talent as possible. But we've got to be prepared to do so. Every time we look to accelerate our rise it comes back to bit us. Like it did with Pagan when we pushed him to take us to the top instantly. Like it did with Ratten when we thought we were close and looked to push from a middle of the road average side to a premier contender instantly.
We needs someone who knows we're shit, who's not afraid to stand up to the board and let them know this and is prepared to do the rebuild properly. We can't have any messiahs or quick fix plans or cheap and nasty hole filling strategies in place.
I don't get the attack on our board. They are brand new, they have stepped in during our slide, there would be no issues with them if the side was winning. Need to be given a chance, they are not stepping into a healthy successful environment where all they have to do is maintain success. They are stepping into an ordinary environment with a mountain of work to be done. There are and have been people at the club who are not doing a great job and finding quality people to replace them is difficult. They have come to the club when the team is on the slide which means they will have to achieve their goals with less revenue. You would think the revenue Trigg had to work with at Adelaide will be gravely different to that of Carlton's.
Need to get over the whole Ratten things, he was a middle of the road coach, tactically pretty good but he was full of false opinions and delusions. Selling early picks for Mclean, believing we were a top 4 side at any period, the Lucas/Talia incident, refusing to trade Thornton to a very eager Hawthorn, not trading guys like Bower who I believe was chased, list cloggers like Warnock, Joseph, not being able to trade Russell, having no bloody idea how to structure a side with talls and extra midfielders like all the good sides of those eras were, developing an individualistic game plan revolving around individuals and individual efforts. Did Ratten ever step in and complain about Hughes and our drafting? He is was the one who should have been going mad about this! Why was Hughes at Carlton so bloody lone! Ratten did ok and took us as far as he could. We started to go down hill badly under his tenure, the mistakes of the past were already starting to crush down on us.
Malthouse may or may not have been the right person to get. The circumstances we got him, to try and win a flag were poor. This, where we are, was always coming and I found it evident in 2010 that bad times were coming.
If we were the bulldogs for example there'd be no weekly assault from Ch7, Fox Footy and the Herald Sun about us and Mick Malthouse and us sacking him. It's about time that our supporters and those media outlets get over it and come to grips with us that we aren't any good and that we're probably not going to win many games. Our list is an aging list, with a really big gap where there's no young talent, a lot of players well past it, no elite players, injuries to players we just can't cover. Coach us any way you like, we're still terrible.
I've got bad news, this could get worse and it's not the coach's fault or the boards fault. With some luck it may get better but we are in line to lose some good old players who still carry us.
The only fix is to start drafting and trading well. Have a good development program and environment and most of all have stability, have everyone going in the one direction, have no deluded people around the place whatsoever and have some really good people in charge of our scouting and to show plenty of patience.
We can not be afraid to make unpopular decisions either. Making popular decisions have killed us in the past. Just make the right decisions. Sacking Malthouse will do nothing, just change our direction, something that kills rebuilding clubs sometimes. We can not be afraid to say so long to angry fans and members. We can not be afraid of the media witch hunt which is going on. We can't be afraid of the loss of revenue and all that comes with being down the bottom.
The only thing we can do about it is sit on the bottom of the ladder for a while and have as big of an intake of young talent as possible. But we've got to be prepared to do so. Every time we look to accelerate our rise it comes back to bit us. Like it did with Pagan when we pushed him to take us to the top instantly. Like it did with Ratten when we thought we were close and looked to push from a middle of the road average side to a premier contender instantly.
We needs someone who knows we're shit, who's not afraid to stand up to the board and let them know this and is prepared to do the rebuild properly. We can't have any messiahs or quick fix plans or cheap and nasty hole filling strategies in place.
I don't get the attack on our board. They are brand new, they have stepped in during our slide, there would be no issues with them if the side was winning. Need to be given a chance, they are not stepping into a healthy successful environment where all they have to do is maintain success. They are stepping into an ordinary environment with a mountain of work to be done. There are and have been people at the club who are not doing a great job and finding quality people to replace them is difficult. They have come to the club when the team is on the slide which means they will have to achieve their goals with less revenue. You would think the revenue Trigg had to work with at Adelaide will be gravely different to that of Carlton's.
Need to get over the whole Ratten things, he was a middle of the road coach, tactically pretty good but he was full of false opinions and delusions. Selling early picks for Mclean, believing we were a top 4 side at any period, the Lucas/Talia incident, refusing to trade Thornton to a very eager Hawthorn, not trading guys like Bower who I believe was chased, list cloggers like Warnock, Joseph, not being able to trade Russell, having no bloody idea how to structure a side with talls and extra midfielders like all the good sides of those eras were, developing an individualistic game plan revolving around individuals and individual efforts. Did Ratten ever step in and complain about Hughes and our drafting? He is was the one who should have been going mad about this! Why was Hughes at Carlton so bloody lone! Ratten did ok and took us as far as he could. We started to go down hill badly under his tenure, the mistakes of the past were already starting to crush down on us.
Malthouse may or may not have been the right person to get. The circumstances we got him, to try and win a flag were poor. This, where we are, was always coming and I found it evident in 2010 that bad times were coming.
If we were the bulldogs for example there'd be no weekly assault from Ch7, Fox Footy and the Herald Sun about us and Mick Malthouse and us sacking him. It's about time that our supporters and those media outlets get over it and come to grips with us that we aren't any good and that we're probably not going to win many games. Our list is an aging list, with a really big gap where there's no young talent, a lot of players well past it, no elite players, injuries to players we just can't cover. Coach us any way you like, we're still terrible.
I've got bad news, this could get worse and it's not the coach's fault or the boards fault. With some luck it may get better but we are in line to lose some good old players who still carry us.
The only fix is to start drafting and trading well. Have a good development program and environment and most of all have stability, have everyone going in the one direction, have no deluded people around the place whatsoever and have some really good people in charge of our scouting and to show plenty of patience.
We can not be afraid to make unpopular decisions either. Making popular decisions have killed us in the past. Just make the right decisions. Sacking Malthouse will do nothing, just change our direction, something that kills rebuilding clubs sometimes. We can not be afraid to say so long to angry fans and members. We can not be afraid of the media witch hunt which is going on. We can't be afraid of the loss of revenue and all that comes with being down the bottom.
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The Club that has been selling 'false hope' to their supporter base since the 80's!
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That's true Aph, but you have to admit our club has been doing that for the last few years as well (bringing Mick onboard as coach etc)
MC_Doggy_Frog18
Club Legend
They should just say MM won't be coaching here next year and get rid of him in the bye. Caretaker coach to take over they find a new coach for next year.
Every club has fairweather supporters.
As a club goes up the ladder, their memberships increase. Just the way it is.
As a club goes up the ladder, their memberships increase. Just the way it is.
Tony Lynn 15
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Dramoth
Premium Platinum
The attack on the board is because all of them are somehow or another locked into various camps belonging to the rich benefactors or they are the rich benefactors (Jeanne Pratt... wasn't she supposed to be the vice president in change of memberships or something equally redundant???).
The board hires Mick Malthouse, and most of the board that did that job are still there, because Mathieson had some of his people tapping him up all season. There was no due diligence done on whether Malthouse was the one to take us forward. He was a quick fix because Mathieson wanted a premiership coach to take us the rest of the way... something that Mathieson said that Ratten couldnt do... despite the team of nobodies taking us to within a kick of a PF. Except that Mathieson was severely overrating the depth of talent available to the club and the fact that the club had been locking average players into 2 year contracts during that year which meant that we couldnt clear the list and get in a bunch of new players for Malthouse to start his tenure at the club with.
The next big thing was LoGuiduce going after the head of recruiting from Hawthorn... once again after a Mathieson rant in the paper... it suddenly pops that Carlton have tried to headhunt the Hawks guy. LoGuiduce tried to do an Elliott and get in a highly credentialed footballing person just before he took over as the president. So that when he took over the reins, he would have something to wave about to all the supporters.
The club hasnt embraced the modern era... the board and the rich benefactors are still stuck back in the 80s where we would win shit by throwing money at the best players around the country.
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There's certainly elements of truth about the drafting woes, but let's not forget that our drafting was compromised by the penalties for the salary cap breaches and further compounded by the inclusions of GC and GWS. Sure, every club was in a similar position when it comes to the expansion clubs hoarding picks, but we had the double whammy that left us further behind the 8 ball. We probably could have been more proactive in the way that we worked around those issues, but we were probably in a worse position.
Having a couple of positive years on the field tends to put the blinkers on and relaxes the attitude of aggressive recruiting.
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Just got a message from someone saying MM has been sacked. Not sure if true though
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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Pretty logical and well constructed responses as usual
save for the the bolded part...good luck with that.
Trigg would have to resign.
He went very hard yesterday saying he would be coaching Friday.
The Old Dark Navy's
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You've had some good football analysis lately gbatman but on the coaching front I think you are just as prone to your own emotions and agendas as anybody.
You chastise Ratten and the club for being deluded into thinking we were top 4 material when we reached 5th and were 3 points away from top 4.
This was you on 12/9/11 after we smashed Essendon in the Elimination Final.
2/12/11 in this predictions thread - http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2012-predictions.878281/page-41#post-22935340
Come 3/6/12 you started agitating for change, specifically Malthouse while conceding that Ratten might not be the problem. We had just got smashed by Port Adelaide and were in 7th post, 6-4 record.
14/6/12 - Still want Mick but want an attacking game plan. We had just lost to West Coast by 10 points and fallen to 6-6, % out of the 8.
15/6/12 - Giving praise to Ratten's team for some good changes and attacking game plan.
Now please don't get me wrong, I enjoy the effort you put into your posts and enjoy the analysis but you do tend to talk in terms that put anybody who doesn't see what you see into the deluded basket and use phrases like 'know less about football than they think they do' when describing them.
Truth is you are just as prone to emotional reactions to performance, just as prone to supporting or condemning coaches as anybody else. All depends what horse you have backed. I do find it interesting though that you were anti-boundary line game plan and one of the redeeming features of Ratten's tenure was that he went away from the game plan that so many take issue with today.
Now I am on board with there being a lot of things wrong at the club and basically having to reset and start again in so many ways. I'm on board with needing to recruit properly. I'm just not on board with the pumping up at the expense of others, the calls of delusion and parting ways with angry fans rather than bow down to them. There may not be a right or wrong call here. Maybe everybody is culpable and everybody is guilty of changing their stance according to what they personally see in front of them.
We ain't so different ... you and me.
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The Old Dark Navy's
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No. Shifting sands, different lobbying, board whims ... Mick could have had some words ... like politics I'm sick of people wanting blood over statements that don't pan out because something changed. It takes away from the big picture.
Meh. Just another spin on that old classic...'has the full backing of the board'.
How many times would Abbott and Co have resigned by now if the same standard was applied?
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This club would look like a fox in a henhouse if we sack Mick before Friday, after declaring publicly today he'll be coaching against The Swans.
I find all these ill-founded rumours mischievous and somewhat distasteful that's only undermining our club further ..
Ok gbatman I get where you are coming from.
You say you "found it evident in 2010 that bad times are coming." Thinking we were a top 4 team "killed us". We "started to go down hill badly" under Ratten (who you think we should "get over"). But "the Board or Ratten or whoever thought we were good enough to be a top 4 side they are the one who need kicking up the arse.
Well, this will come as a surprise to you (particularly given what was evident to you in 2010) but perhaps you should reserve the biggest kick up the arse to yourself. Why you ask?
This is what you posted in Jan 2013:- http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/carlton-2013-predictions.979918/page-10#post-26884280
[Carlton need to be able to maintain a proper structure for the season. In 2011 they came 5th with a poorly structured team. 2012 they got smashed with injuries, especially with talls and never came close to maintaining a proper structure. Carlton's list is now pretty balanced and has depth in all areas and unlike last year, there are very few players injured in the preseason so things are going well. A good coach and what I recon is a fairly good list with a lot of new players with good potential and having not lost any good players for a few seasons, Carlton's potential is quite good.
Carlton will have a much better team and a better coach in 2013 than it had in 2011 when they finished 5th and missed out on 4th by half a game and a preliminary final by less than a kick. Logic suggests they should be around the 5th/4th mark.]
In case you think the above post was an aberration this is what you posted in Feb 2013:- http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...t-always-happens.977702/page-10#post-27270366
[Carlton have the argument that they missed the top 4 by half a win in 2011 and their list is better and healthier now, regardless of the poor blunder/injury filled 2012 season. They also have a good coach and nab cup form looks ok.]
This is what you said in March 2013:- http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...rlton-and-success.995905/page-2#post-27577531
[We only need 2 or so specific players that can play that classic strong over the ball shoulder to shoulder extracting role to challenge for a flag. We can't overly judge our forwards and backs until our midfield becomes dominant and gives them a chance first. We have weaknesses in defense and attack but I don't believe we are any where near as weak there than we think. I think with a dominant midfield for our ends to play around we may just be good enough to go pretty close to win the thing but we need a dominant midfield that can bully lower teams and compete with and beat top teams.]
And in Jan 2014 you gave us the benefit of your acute historical perspective : http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2015-what-to-expect.1074581/page-8#post-35006702
[I think Carlton have made some mistakes from the mid 2000's to now but nothing like we had in the past. Minor ones like drafting good ordinary players with early picks. The good thing is Carlton is becoming professional. It's becoming financially successful, though there are some ways to go. It is spending it's money on areas that will improve the football team such as off field staff and training facilities. Carlton is taking a modern approach to football, with heaps of effort going towards drafting and development of players. Performance evaluations are improving, if someone is not doing their job well enough they are demoted or sacked and we are becoming quicker to identify this.
[It's taken us a long time to create a balanced list after we had to build from the basement up. First we needed the talent to become a good competitive team, then we needed some age/experience/leadership in our first 22, then we needed some talented youth who will/are good enough to play AFL but unable to squeeze into the 22 regularly in our reserves waiting to come through. We are really only getting there now, since starting the rebuild around 2003. 11 years to develop a balanced list, it's not easy and you don't get there by cutting costs and doing things by halves.]
As you can see, your current opinion of the state of the list in 2013 was not your opinion as to the state of the list in 2013 or even in 2014.
It is of course possible that your rosy prognostications in 2013/14 were wrong and at least now, belatedly, you have seen the light. For myself I prefer your 2013 opinion of the list in 2013. So what explains our appalling performances in 2013-15? MM. A has been coach will do exactly that.
So, whose fault is it? You blame Ratten for this one too? And you think others should "get over" Ratts?
You do see where, under Mick's loving guidance, we have now arrived? If sacking MM would change our direction he should be dismissed immediately. As sacking him will nor resurrect season 2015 the Board should simply say now we will have a new coach for 2016 and go find one.
The Old Dark Navy's
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At this point DVB I don't think we could get much lower. If anything the rumours are giving the disillusioned supporters something to maintain their interest.
thylacine60
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What has the CFC been selling us for 15 years?
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True, but I just feel dreadfully sorry for Mick's family, especially Nanette.
Mick's been hounded each week since the round 1 loss to Richmond. Whilst coaches who are struggling bigtime like Hinkley and Brad Scott escape the media blowtorch.
There definitely seems like a concerted push by the media to bring down Mick (Derm just said this on SEN this afternoon)
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One other thing - as much as everyone (myself included) is keen on going out to find a new young coach with fresh ideas - this season has thrown up the success stories of Beveridge, Hinkley & Walsh very early on, but after only a few weeks, the dogs have lost 3 in a row, port have lost 3 in a row and Adelaide have lost 3 of the last 5. The sheen on these guys is wearing off. Maybe Hinkley had an incredibly lucky run with injury last season. Maybe these teams get a bit ahead of themselves and come into a tricky position - one which these coaches arent entirely equipped to handle. What were looking like incredibly astute calls by those clubs boards are now not looking so flash. Food for thought.
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