Minor rebuild required

[Hawk-in-syd]

Well something has gone very wrong with our coaching staff.....because we have it very mixed up, Firstly we don't have the right personal in there, players with speed that can apply pressure.
Secondly, we don't have any forwards apart from our KPP that are permanently inside 50, this allows opposition defenders to stay at home to double and triple team our KP forwards....Its flawed in every way.

Players in the forward line is a problem, you look at lewis, just not quick enough to put that type of presure on. From a defensive presure POV I'd like
20m out Buddy Rioli Pup/Breust
35m out bateman burgs ozzie
55m out young sheils sewell
65m out roughy Renouf Lewis
The guys 65 out can all mark for the long bomb, pace in the first two rows. Really need to work on our tackling. If short people like blair can lay a tackle why can't our guys.

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Cant see a rebuild being viable given GWS and our list.

Our game plan is of concern to me. It seems to be too reliant on risk taking and I dont think that style translates in tight finals games.

I do not see us doing those simple things like guarding the mark or tackling with the same intent we showed in 08.

Clarko is under the pump IMO.

 

[Noel Gallagher]

i agree with te op but this aint gonna happen for one simple reason - clarkson is coaching for his job this year. In his defence he can only coach with the cattle he has and has been killed by Pelchans smart ass attitude and poor recuiting. all recruiter have made mistakes but pelchen has destroyed our chance of securing gun players over 2-3 yrs - we all know who they are/

 

[DuckBilledDazza]

I'll probably be crucified but will give my two cents anyways.

I seem to remember many on this forum calling for Muston, Dowler and perhaps even a few calling for Thorp to be played and left until they found their feet, hailing them as the next coming to take us beyond a mere premiership side to a dynasty.

I wasn't convinced, but held my tongue and thought maybe they know and see something I don't, but I might wait and see until I praise or criticise.

Now I hear that Smith, Pup, Litherland, Lisle, etc are the next coming and we need to play them and leave them in win or lose for the season.

Excuse me if I hold my judgement on these guys, hold my faith in our current crop of players (some new, some old), coaches and administration and believe that we are genuinely building and having a crack at a premiership this year.

Personally I believe that the current TEAM (players,coaches & admin) has the ability and plan, but possibly Are lacking in the application or execution for one reason or another. In any case, so far thus year I have seen some exciting things on field that give weight to my belief that we are heading for some really good results this year.

Again, I might hold my judgement until I am proven otherwise.

 

[burner1]

Think we have the potential to be a materially better side next year than this year:
-Lowden and maybe bailey could be ready which would improve our ruck division immensely
-Potentially have shoe and stratton as two key defensive talls, plus gibson. Grimley will be a year closer.
-Shiels, savage, suckling will have gained signficant experience from a full season. WX, smith, and breust should have established themselves making us a far quicker team. Milne may have also found a role for himself and pup may have locked down a bp spot.

Think AC will be doing everything he can to hold on as he knows whoever is in the seat next year may be sitting on potentially a very good side (yes say that every year but our two key structural defecinces - defence and ruck - should look a whole lot better than currently - the pieces may finally come together).

 

[raff23]

i too believe we arent that far off it we just need to tinker with a few things, Its frustrating to watch a game plan that is not playing to the strengths of the players, certain players are getting picked every week when they dont deserve it and players which should be playing are not. A Key back and 1 to 2 more pacey players and the team looks alot better structurally. Ossie is atm our best defensive forward with rioli playing midfield more and he should be back for the port game. There should be 2 to 3 changes this week if clarko is fair dinkum about improving the way things are going, puopolo, osborne and either lisle or schoenmakers.

 

[raff23]

i agree with te op but this aint gonna happen for one simple reason - clarkson is coaching for his job this year. In his defence he can only coach with the cattle he has and has been killed by Pelchans smart ass attitude and poor recuiting. all recruiter have made mistakes but pelchen has destroyed our chance of securing gun players over 2-3 yrs - we all know who they are/

Hang on a sec you cant just blame pelchan for that, clarko decides who he wants on the list and should have quite a big say on what decision is made, not pelchan's fault thorp had attitude problems, you arent aware of this till after you draft the kid. Pretty sure every other club would have taken him at pick 6 if he was still available you cant predict whats going to happen in the future. Matt Warnock from melbourne is currently in the 2s, he isnt playing because the dees have good depth in the key back area, we on the other hand do not, 1 big blunder is not going after him and that is both pelchan and clarkos fault.

 

[SA HAWK]

Well who are the genuine contenders if we aren't?

Jeez... one loss and the soft yellow underbelly of our supporter base rears it's ugly head... grumble, grumble...

At the moment Collingwood, Geelong, Freo, Essendon & Carlton all look like better teams than us. We couldn't beat Adelaide after being 5 goals up and i think if we had played West Coast in Perth we would not have won.

I really can't see what we have done for you to think we are genuine contenders?

 

[dipper86]

Hang on a sec you cant just blame pelchan for that, clarko decides who he wants on the list and should have quite a big say on what decision is made, not pelchan's fault thorp had attitude problems, you arent aware of this till after you draft the kid. Pretty sure every other club would have taken him at pick 6 if he was still available you cant predict whats going to happen in the future. Matt Warnock from melbourne is currently in the 2s, he isnt playing because the dees have good depth in the key back area, we on the other hand do not, 1 big blunder is not going after him and that is both pelchan and clarkos fault.

Trading and Mature recruits like Dew etc Clarkson has a say in it, but when it comes to pure recruiting I'd say its Pelchen and his recruiting department having the final say, Clarkson would tell him what kind of player we need positional wise etc and Pelchen would pick the best available etc

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Trading and Mature recruits like Dew etc Clarkson has a say in it, but when it comes to pure recruiting I'd say its Pelchen and his recruiting department having the final say, Clarkson would tell him what kind of player we need positional wise etc and Pelchen would pick the best available etc

Not sure. Doesn't Pelchen have a recruitement model based on the number of defensive talls, utilities, rebounding defenders, etc and we recruit against that?

As far as I am aware, Pelchen provides the players and Clarkson develops them.

 

[dipper86]

Not sure. Doesn't Pelchen have a recruitement model based on the number of defensive talls, utilities, rebounding defenders, etc and we recruit against that?

As far as I am aware, Pelchen provides the players and Clarkson develops them.

Yeh I know of his recruiting model but surely Clarkson would have some sort of say in what type/kind of player we need to recruit.......

 

[Roddy]

All this discussion about positional deficiencies etc is cool and all, but I feel our problem is psychological/attitudinal, and that's not as easily fixed as just going to the draft/trade table and filling holes (and even that is hard enough). I sense an attitude/vibe in the team that is not good. I get a sense of a 'we've won our flag, we're alright' attitude. We've lost that edge of hunger and intensity that you could sense towards the end of '07 and then could palpably feel right throughout '08. That's obviously from the premiership players still on the list, but that type of attitudes breeds and spreads around a football club. I personally feel like I can see that before my very eyes, and it worries the shit out of me.
If that team we put out there on the park, even with it's deficiencies, was playing as a commited, hungry, well drilled unit, it would be a top 4 premiership contender. We see teasing glimpses of it, and it's exhilarating when it happens, and makes us look capable of destroying all comers. But what stops it from occuring is all above the shoulders, and that's BAD.

 

[Watsclarkosmob]

Why can teams like West Coast bring in players like Gaff and Darling and have an immediate impact...Hawthorn will send them to the magoos and get nothing out of them?????? Some say if they can't make it at Bocky they can't make it at Hawthorn but why??? Why can't we give these kids a chance like other clubs do??? What is so wrong with our development of players?? I really don't understand how such a wonderful club can't develop players like other clubs do...yes this year we have Savage, Sheils and Suckling doing ok (Suckling is a bit above that but not by much), but these players have been around for awhile now...Lisle needs a go, Smith needs a go, Puopolo needs a go, Cheney needs a go, Duryea needs a go, Breust needs a go...i don't have all the answers but when i looked at the West Coast game line up i was not impressed but remained optimistic due to some well known Big Footy posters talking up how well we looked on paper even with the omissions...We have no rock at fullback and this is costing us goals...i'll say it before and i'll say it again Roughy needs to go back for us to make an impact in the next few years....If Jack Darling can coming into the AFL and have the year he has had why can't our selections???

If a minor rebuild is what it takes to move forwards so be it but whatever we are doing now is not working.......and don't give me that it's only round 5 b#llSh!t, cause if you can't fire round 5 how can you fire mid September??

 

[trickynat]

You're optimistic......I like that, I wish i felt your view...... but in my reality Clarkson is no longer ruthless, he loves his favorites and he will continue to play his favorites even though they are a liability to the team, he is sticking fat with his game plan which in my opinion is structurally and strategically flawed.

-KP forwards allowed to take on 3 to 4 opponents at a time.
-Forward line lacking pace and defensive pressure
-Players played out of position
-Backline with no true KPP.
-Defensive minded midfield that negates them from having any kind of impact on the scoreboard.

Clarkson came in to the club in 2005, he was ruthless and wiped our list clean, he delisted players he didn't know or care for, the real test of his character is what he is going to do now with the players he knows and cares for and has achieved success with, that are.....
a) not good enough
b) Don't have a defined role anymore.

Is he going to put in the youngsters and develop a team for the future ? or is he going to continue to play his favorites while our club stagnates as the 4th to the 10th best team in the comp.

He's stubborn I'm picking the latter, He's currently coaching for he's career and not Hawthorn's future.

Have you considered that maybe the new players in Pop, Smith, Lisle etc aren't up to top grade standard yet, also if the comments are true that he is only playing favourites then Murphy and Whitecross would be in the team by now.

Gee it really pi$$es me off that after 5 games, 3 wins and two close loses (both we were in positions to win) that everyone wants to sack the team and the coach! You can't rate yourself as a genuine supporter if you think that way!

 

[trickynat]

Why can teams like West Coast bring in players like Gaff and Darling and have an immediate impact...Hawthorn will send them to the magoos and get nothing out of them?????? Some say if they can't make it at Bocky they can't make it at Hawthorn but why??? Why can't we give these kids a chance like other clubs do??? What is so wrong with our development of players?? I really don't understand how such a wonderful club can't develop players like other clubs do...yes this year we have Savage, Sheils and Suckling doing ok (Suckling is a bit above that but not by much), but these players have been around for awhile now...Lisle needs a go, Smith needs a go, Puopolo needs a go, Cheney needs a go, Duryea needs a go, Breust needs a go...i don't have all the answers but when i looked at the West Coast game line up i was not impressed but remained optimistic due to some well known Big Footy posters talking up how well we looked on paper even with the omissions...We have no rock at fullback and this is costing us goals...i'll say it before and i'll say it again Roughy needs to go back for us to make an impact in the next few years....If Jack Darling can coming into the AFL and have the year he has had why can't our selections???

If a minor rebuild is what it takes to move forwards so be it but whatever we are doing now is not working.......and don't give me that it's only round 5 b#llSh!t, cause if you can't fire round 5 how can you fire mid September??

JESUS people - Roughie will not play down back end of storey!

 

[dipper86]

Have you considered that maybe the new players in Pop, Smith, Lisle etc aren't up to top grade standard yet,

I have considered that, I'm not wanting to get rid of the majority of the team....but we won't know untill we give them a try either way. Smith isn't ready physically, the other two are........ On the other hand we can continue to play our players out of position with a flawed game plan and accept our current mediocrity.

also if the comments are true that he is only playing favourites then Murphy and Whitecross would be in the team by now.

Since when has Whitecross been a favorite he's a scapegoat more than anything, he hasn't had anything that resembled any kind of continuity playing in the seniors, he's the first dropped almost every time, even when there are others that are more deserving.

Gee it really pi$$es me off that after 5 games, 3 wins and two close loses (both we were in positions to win) that everyone wants to sack the team and the coach! You can't rate yourself as a genuine supporter if you think that way!

Don't get ahead of yourself this has been going on for 2 to 3 years, The scoreboard flattered us against Geelong, we were outplayed. Ditto with Adelaide......comprehensively outclassed in the 2nd half.
We sneaked over the line against a West Coast side that had to travel 5 hours just to get to the game.
Beat a Richmond side playing in the wet, men vs boys and played some good footy against a Melbourne side who are just plain ordinary at the minute.

If you can't see that there are some serious issues with our current personal, both structurally and tactically then you clearly need to take those blinkers off.

 

[randall boner]

JESUS people - Roughie will not play down back end of storey!

and cause of that we wont win a flag end of story.

 

[randall boner]

All this discussion about positional deficiencies etc is cool and all, but I feel our problem is psychological/attitudinal, and that's not as easily fixed as just going to the draft/trade table and filling holes (and even that is hard enough). I sense an attitude/vibe in the team that is not good. I get a sense of a 'we've won our flag, we're alright' attitude. We've lost that edge of hunger and intensity that you could sense towards the end of '07 and then could palpably feel right throughout '08. That's obviously from the premiership players still on the list, but that type of attitudes breeds and spreads around a football club. I personally feel like I can see that before my very eyes, and it worries the shit out of me.
If that team we put out there on the park, even with it's deficiencies, was playing as a commited, hungry, well drilled unit, it would be a top 4 premiership contender. We see teasing glimpses of it, and it's exhilarating when it happens, and makes us look capable of destroying all comers. But what stops it from occuring is all above the shoulders, and that's BAD.

spot on

 

[Hodgepodge]

Trading away Kennedy, McGlynn, Picks 25, 9 . . . just ridiculous decisions by the club.

 

[mrcurly]

Trading away Kennedy, McGlynn, Picks 25, 9 . . . just ridiculous decisions by the club.

True - in retrospect.

Kennedy and McGlynn come up often, if they were playing for Sydney as they played for Hawthorn a couple of seasons back nobody would bat an eyelid.

McGlynn was great at getting the ball, more often to butcher it. Kennedy could not kick to save his life, and both were shocking kicks for goal. To look at them now they don't seem like the same players, one has transformed himself into a very dangerous goalsneak, Kennedy a tough and solid onballer. They both fit perfectly into the pseudo rugby style of Sydney.

Would be nice to have a crystal ball.

 

[Sometimes]

True - in retrospect.

Kennedy and McGlynn come up often, if they were playing for Sydney as they played for Hawthorn a couple of seasons back nobody would bat an eyelid.

McGlynn was great at getting the ball, more often to butcher it. Kennedy could not kick to save his life, and both were shocking kicks for goal. To look at them now they don't seem like the same players, one has transformed himself into a very dangerous goalsneak, Kennedy a tough and solid onballer. They both fit perfectly into the pseudo rugby style of Sydney.

Would be nice to have a crystal ball.

Kennedy was what 19 or 20 when he played for us? He had a massive scope for improvement. I was pissed he left. We should be thinking about our future too, not just right now. And he's a Kennedy FFS!

 

[Hawker_Ant]

Still on the glass half full side.

We've had a pretty good pre-season for a change, but there are a few players that aren't in the best of form. I think it's all part of learning a new game plan that is more similar to the Wobblers playstyle... getting players to the contest and moving the ball with quick handballs through congestion to a player in space, use it well from there. I'm hoping we'll get better at it and we'll see continual improvement.

I'm not sure that too many changes are required. Losing Stratts was an enormous blow, other than Schoey (who has struggled to fit into CHB) there's isn't any replacement.

Defensive pressure has been a little bit disappointing, especially forward. I'm not sure Bruest is any panacea (still a rookie anyway). The word I've heard is that his tackling and forward pressure is the question over him, maybe he has improved. I'd have Ozzie well ahead of him, need him back in the side. Also... NEVER kick to Buddy in a contest! Always to Roughie, who can be relied upon to get the ball to ground... and make sure there's someone at his feet!