Player Watch Nathan Kreuger

[TheVillageIdiot7]

Yeah in that previous post, I simply meant - strategically defensive - eg. concern over what the opposition 2nd ruck will do against ours around stoppage. I think we value the re-enforcement to the defensive wall that we get from a ruck as much as anything else - hence willingness to let Grundy go - despite him being immense around stoppage.

Where I disagree with you is that I don't think it has to be a ruck player to provide that re-enforcement to the defensive wall - it just needs a marking player who gets to the right spots, but Cox has been preferred because he pushes back better than the others do, as well as being a better tap ruckman and providing a better pack marking target for slow entries. So he does 3 parts of the role we want from him better than the forwards who can chop out. If our thinking changes and Cox misses out, I think it'll be more about whether we have options and decide to tweak our structures to be better in different areas.

100% on board in that I don’t care who it is.
I actually chose not to mention who in my post to make that point.
Because everyone gets caught up in names.

Our structure is far better when we play 2 players who can take the ruck and push back in defense (for more than 5mins a qtr).

It’s also about the long game.

Asking players to play 50% in a taxing position over multiple weeks is better than grinding someone into the ground.
We do it because players play better for longer (both in game and across the season).

The whole “play the minutes” rubbish might actually relate to our talls as well!

 

[manicpie]

Yeah in that previous post, I simply meant - strategically defensive - eg. concern over what the opposition 2nd ruck will do against ours around stoppage. I think we value the re-enforcement to the defensive wall that we get from a ruck as much as anything else - hence willingness to let Grundy go - despite him being immense around stoppage.

Where I disagree with you is that I don't think it has to be a ruck player to provide that re-enforcement to the defensive wall - it just needs a marking player who gets to the right spots, but Cox has been preferred because he pushes back better than the others do, as well as being a better tap ruckman and providing a better pack marking target for slow entries. So he does 3 parts of the role we want from him better than the forwards who can chop out. If our thinking changes and Cox misses out, I think it'll be more about whether we have options and decide to tweak our structures to be better in different areas.

I reckon, when the whips are cracking, we'll play Cox, who's the more proven finals player. It will be the same with some of our inexperienced players. We also have to assume that our injury situation will improve, fingers crossed.

 

[sr36]

McStay gives us a genuine target because he can take a contested mark.

Kreuger can’t do that.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a Dan fan. So much so that when people are talking Logan McDonald - I think that I'd prefer the McStay and Mihocek combo for the next few years. But he's coming off an ACL and will have only had a few games back by finals. Assuming we'll have something close to the 2023 finals Dan McStay back this season is a big assumption - I hope we do though.

 

[sr36]

I reckon, when the whips are cracking, we'll play Cox, who's the more proven finals player. It will be the same with some of our inexperienced players. We also have to assume that our injury situation will improve, fingers crossed.

I think so too - more because he pushes back better and is more likely to clunk it in a pack at both ends than the actual ruckwork part of it.

 

[manicpie]

Don't get me wrong. I'm a Dan fan. So much so that when people are talking Logan McDonald - I think that I'd prefer the McStay and Mihocek combo for the next few years. But he's coming off an ACL and will have only had a few games back by finals. Assuming we'll have something close to the 2023 finals Dan McStay back this season is a big assumption - I hope we do though.

I'm with you on LM, he is just going atm, probably there for structure more than anything else. He's a very slow burn

 

[TheVillageIdiot7]

Don't get me wrong. I'm a Dan fan. So much so that when people are talking Logan McDonald - I think that I'd prefer the McStay and Mihocek combo for the next few years. But he's coming off an ACL and will have only had a few games back by finals. Assuming we'll have something close to the 2023 finals Dan McStay back this season is a big assumption - I hope we do though.

He looked pretty huge against Selena in the training pics!!
(Selena is our aflw CHB btw).

Think it’s awesome that the guys trained with the aflw team. Such a great learning curve for them.

 

[Pistol Night]

I'm with you on LM, he is just going atm, probably there for structure more than anything else. He's a very slow burn

Looked like he was going to be a superstar pre draft in the WAFL against men. Buddy's presence would have slowed his development

 

[manicpie]

Looked like he was going to be a superstar pre draft in the WAFL against men. Buddy's presence would have slowed his development

If we really are after him, we'd have to trust that the club think he could be a damaging forward but on his present output, I wouldn't lose any sleep if we don't get him

 

[sr36]

100% on board in that I don’t care who it is.
I actually chose not to mention who in my post to make that point.
Because everyone gets caught up in names.

Our structure is far better when we play 2 players who can take the ruck and push back in defense (for more than 5mins a qtr).

It’s also about the long game.

Asking players to play 50% in a taxing position over multiple weeks is better than grinding someone into the ground.
We do it because players play better for longer (both in game and across the season).

The whole “play the minutes” rubbish might actually relate to our talls as well!

Darcy Cameron's improvement might have changed this. He's now comfortably the best at it and is holding up really well with 80% game time in the role.

We might only want someone to do it for 5 minutes a quarter, which changes the equation.

 

[sr36]

Looked like he was going to be a superstar pre draft in the WAFL against men. Buddy's presence would have slowed his development

Tex Walker, without the racial abuse, would be the goal for McDonald.

He's not looking like becoming a big contested mark like McKay or a bloke who can easily get separation and also be dangerous at ground level like Buddy or Curnow.

Should be a good solid forward though with some potential to become as smart and as good as Walker.

 

[TheVillageIdiot7]

Darcy Cameron's improvement might have changed this. He's now comfortably the best at it and is holding up really well with 80% game time in the role.

We might only want someone to do it for 5 minutes a quarter, which changes the equation.

No he’s not.
Don’t let results obscure the reality.

He got smoked against Xerri / Teakle.
Smoked.

Gawn was still rated highly on that game.

His best is when he has support.

Our best structure is allowing Cameron freedom AND support.

 

[sr36]

No he’s not.
Don’t let results obscure the reality.

He got smoked against Xerri / Teakle.
Smoked.

Gawn was still rated highly on that game.

His best is when he has support.

Our best structure is allowing Cameron freedom AND support.

Disagree. In the North game, Cameron competed well around stoppage against a good ruck who is better at following up and stoppage than anyone we've got to throw up against him, and then dropped back really well to take some excellent clunks. We wouldn't have wanted to drop him down to 50% ruck time in that game. And he held up well against Gawn.

 

[Granit1962]

This ruck discussion is really interesting.

 

[TheVillageIdiot7]

Disagree. In the North game, Cameron competed well around stoppage against a good ruck who is better at following up and stoppage than anyone we've got to throw up against him, and then dropped back really well to take some excellent clunks. We wouldn't have wanted to drop him down to 50% ruck time in that game. And he held up well against Gawn.

Just an FYI - only because I’m watching the north game now.

Kreugs lost 3 ruck contests for 3 I50 and 2 goals in q3.
Just out of curiosity, what sort of offence does everyone think he should provide to counter that?!?

Then they took 2 marks to pink where Kreugs was nowhere near it (as our defensive ruckman).
Again…what’s the offence counter balance?

So where was Cameron if he can ruck 80%? Which really is under 1 qtr on the bench….

Ps. He can’t ruck 80%.

 

[sr36]

Just an FYI - only because I’m watching the north game now.

Kreugs lost 3 ruck contests for 3 I50 and 2 goals in q3.
Just out of curiosity, what sort of offence does everyone think he should provide to counter that?!?

Then they took 2 marks to pink where Kreugs was nowhere near it (as our defensive ruckman).
Again…what’s the offence counter balance?

So where was Cameron if he can ruck 80%? Which really is under 1 qtr on the bench….

Ps. He can’t ruck 80%.

Cameron has been playing over 80% and hasn't been resting forward, so I'm not sure why you think he can't ruck 80%.

Goals from centre or even clearances from centre are rarely entirely down to the ruck. You've lost a hitout, been beaten at ground level and then beaten up forward. You could probably just work out a different set up to nullify ruck dominance.

I'll be surprised if Krueger is smart enough to get back into defence as well as Cox, ditto Frampton, McStay probably would be able to.

So agree that Cox is likely to offer a heap more in the ruck contests and in terms of dropping back into defence, as well as a pack target up forward. Don't agree that you'd be looking at a 50/50 split with Cameron though. Who I think has gone well above him in that role.

 

[Apex36]

Probably, but he seems to have improved a heap since he did his ACL... He's a solid player, but no star and can't afford to be far below his best to justify a place if the other 2 are playing decently.

Regardless of whether you regard him as a star or not, it’s pretty hard to deny the impact he had on our 22 in the latter half of last year. He straightened us up going inside 50, and was going at over 2 goals a game which is elite.

 

[Apex36]

I reckon, when the whips are cracking, we'll play Cox, who's the more proven finals player. It will be the same with some of our inexperienced players. We also have to assume that our injury situation will improve, fingers crossed.

Dunno about that. When we made finals in 2010 did we turn to experience in Medhurst or did we back in the rookie Blair who’d taken his spot when he got injured? Did we bring Lockyer back in or did we back our young players?

 

[sr36]

Regardless of whether you regard him as a star or not, it’s pretty hard to deny the impact he had on our 22 in the latter half of last year. He straightened us up going inside 50, and was going at over 2 goals a game which is elite.

I'm not denying his impact. I rate his contribution. He was very good at the back end of last year. I'm just not assuming that he's going to immediately be good straight after an ACL - it has taken some bloody good players a whole year of games to build up their confidence and return to prior form.

 

[sr36]

This ruck discussion is really interesting.

I just hope it becomes relevant.

As it will mean that Cox and McStay are back and looking OK or good and Freddy has held up well in their absence.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Dunno about that. When we made finals in 2010 did we turn to experience in Medhurst or did we back in the rookie Blair who’d taken his spot when he got injured? Did we bring Lockyer back in or did we back our young players?

To be fair, not exactly comparable, or relevant in terms of years gone by. Cox v mcstay v frampton v Kreuger is very much a structural decision as much as a “ will we risk the injured veteran” decision. I agree with you that Kreuger has a serious opportunity to keep Cox out of the side but it will come down to form and results.

Personally in 2010 I would have found a spot for medhurst ! Besides, there’s the 2011 example which didn’t work so well when Goldsack should have been sub over Fasolo.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I'm not denying his impact. I rate his contribution. He was very good at the back end of last year. I'm just not assuming that he's going to immediately be good straight after an ACL - it has taken some bloody good players a whole year of games to build up their confidence and return to prior form.

Similarly Cox after a PCL… same argument applies and his form wasn’t great prior to injury.

 

[76woodenspooners]

… Dan McStay back this season is a big assumption - I hope we do though.

Not really a big assumption.

We’ve been told all along the journey that he is tracking as best as can be expected, and he hasn’t had any setbacks.

If he was no chance of getting back this year we would put him on the LTI list and picked up another SSP player start of season.

 

[sr36]

Similarly Cox after a PCL… same argument applies and his form wasn’t great prior to injury.

Yep. There's a fair chance that we will have our two preferred blokes underdone with very few runs on the board this year.

If Krueger plays well from here, he's a definite chance to hold his place - picking two underdone talls based on form from 12 months ago, would be a bit nuts if you're dropping a bloke doing a good job in one of the roles.

Hopefully they all play well before finals. However, I think it's a lot more likely that we have less than 2 of them screaming pick me with their fitness and form than all 3 of them.

 

[sr36]

Not really a big assumption.

We’ve been told all along the journey that he is tracking as best as can be expected, and he hasn’t had any setbacks.

If he was no chance of getting back this year we would put him on the LTI list and picked up another SSP player start of season.

I meant back and playing well.

 

[Mark W]

Not really a big assumption.

We’ve been told all along the journey that he is tracking as best as can be expected, and he hasn’t had any setbacks.

If he was no chance of getting back this year we would put him on the LTI list and picked up another SSP player start of season.

The assumption being made isn’t really whether he shall be back… it’s whether he shall be back and in reasonable form. As Sr36 said, many players take a long time to hit form after an ACL…