National Seconds Competition

[VolgaBoatman]

So the WAFL clubs currently get 600k from West Coast and Fremantle ( with their Peel alignment) so that would be devastating to local football to remove that when they pretty much do the hard yards finding and nurturing the local players through colts and upwards. It could happen but money needs to flow into local footy noting that WA football receives nothing from AFL at the moment from my understanding.

 

[Blue and Silver]

So the WAFL clubs currently get 600k from West Coast and Fremantle ( with their Peel alignment) so that would be devastating to local football to remove that when they pretty much do the hard yards finding and nurturing the local players through colts and upwards. It could happen but money needs to flow into local footy noting that WA football receives nothing from AFL at the moment from my understanding.

Think that's totally fine.

AFL's meant to be promoting grassroots footy anyway.

I don't want WAFL or SANFL footy to go away, but feel that the national game is held back by the patchwork seconds competition

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[Outtatym]

Think it would definitely help the state leagues, especially VFL.

How so? Imo it would be a death blow for the comp.

 

[catters05]

How so? Imo it would be a death blow for the comp.

Wouldn’t happen overnight, but removing afl teams would assist with the integrity of the comp imo.

Local vfl club fans can get back on board with it after the rebuild with no afl clubs. Obviously vfl rebuild would take a lot more work then sanfl and wafl.

 

[catters05]

So the WAFL clubs currently get 600k from West Coast and Fremantle ( with their Peel alignment) so that would be devastating to local football to remove that when they pretty much do the hard yards finding and nurturing the local players through colts and upwards. It could happen but money needs to flow into local footy noting that WA football receives nothing from AFL at the moment from my understanding.

AFL need to provide.

 

[catters05]

Personally I'd introduce some regional teams.

Bendigo, Gippsland, Ballarat, Geelong (name change probably) all footy rich areas

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VFL metro and VFL country across two divisions perhaps?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

So the WAFL clubs currently get 600k from West Coast and Fremantle ( with their Peel alignment) so that would be devastating to local football to remove that when they pretty much do the hard yards finding and nurturing the local players through colts and upwards. It could happen but money needs to flow into local footy noting that WA football receives nothing from AFL at the moment from my understanding.

The WAFC own the AFL licences, they simply charge Freo and West Coast half a million a year more on top of the royalty. Actually make it a million. The AFL clubs have plenty so share it around.

 

[nick1408]

AFL reserves comp is badly needed. Let the WAFL/SANFL/VFL become standalone and a genuine state league again (like the old VFL v VFA was).

Then we need to make sure they get fixtured properly so that people can come and watch at least the second half before the game.

Take a 2.10pm AFL game as an example

AFLR (reserves) Game: Fixed 30min Quarters
Q1: 11.05am to 11.35am
QT: 11.35am to 11.40am
Q2: 11.40pm to 12.10pm
HT: 12.10pm to 12.30pm (AFL Warmup 1)
Q3: 12.30pm to 1.00pm
3QT: 1.00pm to 1.20pm (AFL Warmup 2)
Q4: 1.20pm to 1.50pm
Then give 5min to clear the field before the AFL umpires come onto the field.

AFL Game: Normal 20min Qs + Time On
Umpires on Field: 1.55pm
Teams on Field: 1.57pm
AFL Game Start: 2.10pm

If this was to come in and aligned with the senior fixture wouldn't current TV demands mean that reserves would be fixtured after the seniors? Even with fixed timings of quarters unforeseen stoppages like stretchers, lightning etc. could push the start times for the senior fixtures out. TV won't care about the reserves, only the main product.

In addition, if the reserves was after the seniors it would mean unused emergencies would get a game.

Clearly neither before or after works for Thursday and Friday night games. so clubs playing in those timeslots would still need to play on a Saturday or Sunday.

 

[Walshawk]

From an AFL standpoint it makes too much sense.

Would a Victorian state league with the standalones (Port, Williamstown, Werribee, Frankston, Coburg, Preston) and a handful of de-affiliated clubs like Sandringham, Box Hill and Casey be able to survive on its own?

Box Hill and Casey do not really exist, they are simply Hawthorn and Melbourne reserves with different names. Neither has any supporters or means to enter any competition on their own.

Any third tier league without AFL involvement would fold within 12 months. C7 would not want to broadcast and without the couple of hundred fans that Collingwood/ESS/Carl reserves bring to Coburg, Preston, etc, match day revenues would also drop.

The cost of an AFL reserves comp is the end of most of the old VFA clubs. It would be very difficult for them to even join suburban leagues as they have no juniors or reserves, and most have less supporters and less money than the big suburban clubs like Vermont, who can also pay players much more. The attraction of playing for Port or Willi is playing against AFL listed players, and once that goes, it is all over for those clubs, and their sponsors.

I love the current set up. Playing at Box Hill retains some level of community involvement in Hawthorn’s traditional heartland. I will be sad if that disappears. Surely this is just Port leveraging to get some more favourable conditions from the SANFL?

 

[Andyy]

Same fixture for the all the clubs to follow creating a full days entertainment for the fans just like the old days :

2:00pm - AFL Seniors

12:00noon - AFL Reserves

10:00am - AFLW

Or just fold the AFLW, which IMO should not be a national competition yet. The product isn't attractive enough to be a viable business for the moment and I think it would be better to invest in 2nd + 3rd tier men's comps and leave the women's comp at a T2 level until there's more grassroots experience - it's concerning when some of the best AFLW players are converts from other sporting codes.

 

[Colonial]

Or just fold the AFLW, which IMO should not be a national competition yet. The product isn't attractive enough to be a viable business for the moment and I think it would be better to invest in 2nd + 3rd tier men's comps and leave the women's comp at a T2 level until there's more grassroots experience - it's concerning when some of the best AFLW players are converts from other sporting codes.

lol no.

 

[Gunf]

Or just fold the AFLW, which IMO should not be a national competition yet. The product isn't attractive enough to be a viable business for the moment and I think it would be better to invest in 2nd + 3rd tier men's comps and leave the women's comp at a T2 level until there's more grassroots experience - it's concerning when some of the best AFLW players are converts from other sporting codes.

How the **** do you have a take so ****ing wrong

 

[Andyy]

How the * do you have a take so ******* wrong

Elaborate on why you think I'm wrong and I will respond accordingly.

You can keep it clean too if you want - no need to get upset.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

This makes perfect sense, so I look forward to not seeing it happen...

Every team with a seniors, reserves and AFLW team would make fixturing and travel easier. It would obviously require the women playing longer seasons if all 3 sides are fixtured together. The travelling side of things would help with the AFLW not making money and being continued to be subsidised by the AFL for now.

It does pose some interesting questions about AFL list sizes though. Currently, VFL teams are rounded out with players who aren't AFL listed. They aren't making much money and have fulltime jobs. Something would need to be done to allow these players to travel regularly and quit their jobs. I'm assuming a number of AFLW players would be in the same boat.
A lot needs to happen to make it work, but it's the obvious way forward.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Fold the elite women’s league to save a few semi professional suburban Melbourne men’s teams.

That’ll go down well.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Or just fold the AFLW, which IMO should not be a national competition yet. The product isn't attractive enough to be a viable business for the moment and I think it would be better to invest in 2nd + 3rd tier men's comps and leave the women's comp at a T2 level until there's more grassroots experience - it's concerning when some of the best AFLW players are converts from other sporting codes.

This could help kick it along and make it more viable.
Sharing travel and accommodation costs. Have tiered ticket prices for those who want to see all games vs those only there to watch the seniors.
All inclusive memberships to give access to all games, which can help kick dollars back into the women's program.
I agree that they've pushed the expansion of the women's league too hard, too fast, but we should be looking at ways to make it work, not just abandoning it.

 

[Andyy]

This could help kick it along and make it more viable.
Sharing travel and accommodation costs. Have tiered ticket prices for those who want to see all games vs those only there to watch the seniors.
All inclusive memberships to give access to all games, which can help kick dollars back into the women's program.
I agree that they've pushed the expansion of the women's league too hard, too fast, but we should be looking at ways to make it work, not just abandoning it.

If you look back through this thread you can see the enthusiasm for 2nd tier men's football, nostalgic comments about magoos games before 1sts etc.

This isn't the same for AFLW. Not saying it won't ever get there but the AFL has forced it along far quicker than it would have happeed organically, even with some encouragement.

It's not a viable business currently so will just cost the AFL money from the men's league.

 

[jakson68]

If you look back through this thread you can see the enthusiasm for 2nd tier men's football, nostalgic comments about magoos games before 1sts etc.

This isn't the same for AFLW. Not saying it won't ever get there but the AFL has forced it along far quicker than it would have happeed organically, even with some encouragement.

It's not a viable business currently so will just cost the AFL money from the men's league.

Yep, lets kick the women out completely. They should just stick with netball

Whilst we are at it, why dont we also just ban women from entering certain parts of the MCG (unless they are working) and go completely back to the dark ages.
You must love the concept of Lords cricket.

I must admit, I at times have struggled to watch AFLW, as the quality of the game isn't always watchable but it gets better each year and isn't that all we can ask?

The question isn't can the AFL afford to support AFLW, it is can they afford not to.

Women from all states are entitled to love and play our great game also and as much as I have fond memories of reserves games before the seniors, we cannot lose what we have started with the AFLW.
It is still in its infancy, so we must give it a chance.

Now to the part I have bolded above.
There are teams in the AFL mens system, that cost a substantial amount of AFL dollars to keep running.

Should we kick them out also?

Port need assistance to play in the AFL, now want a reserves team also.
Should we just kick them out because they cost the AFL money?
Or North, St Kilda and others?

Or is it just the fact that they are women?

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

If you look back through this thread you can see the enthusiasm for 2nd tier men's football, nostalgic comments about magoos games before 1sts etc.

I'm not sure what this has to do with abandoning the AFLW? Or how it supports your stance?

 

[Andyy]

Yep, lets kick the women out completely. They should just stick with netball

Whilst we are at it, why dont we also just ban women from entering certain parts of the MCG (unless they are working) and go completely back to the dark ages.
You must love the concept of Lords cricket.

I must admit, I at times have struggled to watch AFLW, as the quality of the game isn't always watchable but it gets better each year and isn't that all we can ask?

The question isn't can the AFL afford to support AFLW, it is can they afford not to.

Women from all states are entitled to love and play our great game also and as much as I have fond memories of reserves games before the seniors, we cannot lose what we have started with the AFLW.
It is still in its infancy, so we must give it a chance.

Now to the part I have bolded above.
There are teams in the AFL mens system, that cost a substantial amount of AFL dollars to keep running.

Should we kick them out also?

Port need assistance to play in the AFL, now want a reserves team also.
Should we just kick them out because they cost the AFL money?
Or North, St Kilda and others?

Or is it just the fact that they are women?

Sarcasm unwarranted. No need to be silly and assume or acuse gender bias.

I think the AFLW was introduced too quickly for its own good and that it should have developed more at local/state level before becoming a national league. The national league itself has also grown too quickly.

Nothing wrong with playing a game you love - doesn't mean that you need to force a professional/national league into existence if the market doesn't exist for it yet.

Regarding teams that cannot support themselves financially - yes, I think we should consider folding some of them too. For the life of me I don't understand why the AFL insisted on NSW/QLD expansion with GWS and GCS when there was a clear and appreciable appetite for it in Tasmania (I suppose they wanted to have a poke at NRL territory). I don't think there's enough talent in the country to field 18 professional men's teams, let alone 19 when Tas enters the league, or we don't have the means to find & develop that talent. I think this has contributed to the deterioration of the product and why fans tend to marvel less at the 'spectacle' of the game. It's also why we see lots of comments about how recent premiership teams are the 'worst premiership team everrrrr' etc.

I think a viable solution would have been to fold 2 men's teams and relocate them to Tas. This would also increase the amount of talent available to every team and improve the overall product.

Another way of looking at it is this - individual teams may not be profitable, but the men's league as a product IS profitable, therefore the league sustains itself profitably whilst propping up some of the smaller clubs who contribute to the end product.

At this stage I doubt than any women's team would be profitable without being propped up by AFL/men's club funding and the league as a whole probably wouldn't be either.

 

[Andyy]

I'm not sure what this has to do with abandoning the AFLW? Or how it supports your stance?

Just positing out loud whether or not the AFL has the capital to do all of these things, or whether or not it needs to back a particular horse.

At the moment it would appear they are backing AFLW but in my view there's a larger consumer market for 2nd tier men's leagues, hence the reference to the 'good old days' at the magoos etc.

 

[glengowan]

All that is needed is a fair competition. Therefore, if one side has a reserves team, then all teams should have a reserves team.

Or, if no teams have reserves teams, then that also works.

What if squads were reduced to 32 and there was more ability to bring in players from all around the country as reserves in case of injury?

How much would that save if the salary cap was reduced pro-rata and there was no need to fund a national reserves competition?

Build up the already semi-professional SANFL and WAFL. Fix up the VFL - minus AFL club involvement. Invest in the Sydney, Brisbane, Darwin and Tasmania Leagues. Create state league clubs in large regional towns that are fed from involvement from clubs in smaller towns around the country.

Rebuild the foundation that was able to create the strong competition that is the AFL and keep the AFL elite.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Some irritation and elements needs to be ironed out but the idea that a standalone VFL and AFL reserves makes no sense. They've already tried it occasion. I went to a Footscray vs Richmond VFL game at Docklands that was played as a double header before the in AFL game. Nobody went to it.

Standalone VFL clubs partially exist to feed talent into the AFL system ie there's requirements for young players, or players paying for a pay cut to improve their chances of being drafted. Actual clubs with money in the state like EFL clubs don't want to spend money travelling out of state.

Why should the four non-Eastern reserves teams fly to the east coast when there's a perfectly adequate quality of competition locally? Issues like the quality of top-up players can easily be solved if the AFL just strong-armed the local footy boards.

 

[eastfreo75]

Fremantle basically break even each year with one of the least AFL funded club plus paying royalties to the WAFC. Funding a second team would push Dockers into the Red and cuts would be needed to be made to survive. It's in the interest for both the Dockers and Thunder to be aligned.

 

[terrybull]

How about making VFL, SANFL, WAFL + Tasmania Devils as one League.

42 teams split in 3 divisions. Promotion/Regulation.