Expansion National reserves competition in 2025. Are you in favour?

[Rickee]

People talking about how the VFA died, yet seem to forget the AFL Reserves also died.

The AFL reserves didn't "die". The big Melbourne clubs claimed the SA and WA teams having access to the whole of thier respective state leagues was unfair to them, so at the end of 1999 the VSFL (now AFL Victoria) amalgamated the Reserves (which comprised the 10 Victorian AFL clubs and Sydney) with the VFL as they controlled both bodies.

 

[Philhawk]

This is true, AFL Victoria have slowly strangled the VFL to death and the addition of the four reserves sides from Qld and NSW was the straw that broke the camels' back.

However, in the event of a national reserves competition, I can see the VFL being restructured to include the current stand alone clubs, an independant Sandringham, Box Hill Mustangs and Casey Scorpions.

That's 9 teams, which is plenty to start off with, and maybe if it goes well a few more sides might jump on board, North Ballarat were interested in re-joining up until a few years ago, and several old VFA sides are still up and about.

The thing AFL Victoria cannot allow to happen is the end of the VFL all together, it leaves a void at the top of the state leagues pyramid and you also have 6 and a half current stand alone clubs that you are responsible for that will have no league to play in.

Sorry, but Box Hill would die without our partnership. What’s more, a reserves system is farcical as, if anything, the “AFL clubs” will just pilfer all the local leagues to get the best senior talent to compliment their young kids in the reserves.

This idea is pretty farcical.

 

[Rickee]

There is no Mustangs nor Scorpions. Box Hill and Casey have been run by their AFL partners for decades. There wouldn’t be a single supporter left. No chance of forming clubs out of that.

Some of the VFL stand alone clubs are less popular and financial that the big suburban clubs like Vermont. Players only play for them due to the exposure and experience of playing against AFL listed players in a second tier comp. Once it becomes the third tier, most players will go back to suburban footy. A ‘new VFA’ would fold after one season.

The best chance for the old VFA clubs to survive in some form is to join suburban leagues. But the problem there is they would need reserves and U19s, which most of them don’t have. Perhaps they could merge with a suburban club. Likely that some would fold. Sad, but inevitable.

The Mustangs might be controlled by Hawthorn, but they are still legally a seperate entity and planned to play as a stand alone club after the Hawks pulled thier players out of the proposed shortened 2020 season, which didn't end up happening due to Covid. Casey has the full support of the council and they have a large financial interest in having a team based at Casey Fields. If Preston can cobble together a VFL list at short notice from amatuer players, Box Hill and Casey will be fine.

No VFL stand alone club has a dedicated reserves because certain Victorian clubs cough*Collingwood*cough complained that it wasn't fair that they had to play thier unselected VFL listed players at local host clubs so the VFL discontinued the reserves and put the host club situation on the stand alones as well.

I am well aware that the VFL is not popular and all of the stand alone clubs are less financially viable than suburban powerhouses, but it is in the AFLs best interest to have a strong state league, even if it becomes the third tier competition behind the AFL Reserves. I don't see the SANFL or WAFL folding when the Reserves starts, so why would Victoria allow themselves to go on without a dedicated state league, even if declines in quality.

As evidenced with the above mentioned 2020 season, the stand alone VFL clubs are prepared to try and make a go of it as an independant entity, this is our competition at the end of the day and it's history and clubs are important and do matter.

 

[Rickee]

Sorry, but Box Hill would die without our partnership. What’s more, a reserves system is farcical as, if anything, the “AFL clubs” will just pilfer all the local leagues to get the best senior talent to compliment their young kids in the reserves.

This idea is pretty farcical.

I have no doubt that they would struggle, but Box Hill could certainly survive if/when Hawthorn pulled the pin. There is a legal entity that is seperate from Hawthorn, a home ground and a history, plus several semi-professioanl leagues in the East to draw players from.

It might shock you to hear this, but even if a club or a league is not rich, has a list full of champion players and a shiny training facility, they can still exist and even be successful. I am from the country, we have clubs up here from towns that barely qualify as such, and they manage to field teams in all grades each and every week and be a source of connection and community for locals.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Could we potentially see a return to the old vfa days of multiple divisions?

The local leagues have been beaten to near death by afl vic. I'm a coach at a team in the sfnl, and the teams want to bail on the league and afl vic.
Heard similar from the outer east and mpfnl.

 

[Rickee]

I disagree with your assessment that the AFL killed it.

Lack of interest killed it. As soon as the VFL started playing on Sunday, she was dead as a doorknob. They just didn’t know it yet.

The AFL certainly did kill the VFA, and they did it by moving South Melbourne to Sydney, having them play all thier home games on a Sunday and broadcast them live into Victoria. If you look at the history the VFL had been trying to end the Association ever since they broke away from it. It took until 1995 for it to fully succeed, but it did eventually happen.

But I would call it a murder-suicide as the FORT Review and the fallout from it was a massive contributing factor.

 

[Rickee]

Could we potentially see a return to the old vfa days of multiple divisions?

The local leagues have been beaten to near death by afl vic. I'm a coach at a team in the sfnl, and the teams want to bail on the league and afl vic.
Heard similar from the outer east and mpfnl.

The country leagues are very angry at AFL Vic too, because they changed the age limits in junior grades and it has caused absolute chaos.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

The country leagues are very angry at AFL Vic too, because they changed the age limits in junior grades and it has caused absolute chaos.

Would be good to see them break away, but expect only way it happens is with big financial backing

 

[glengowan]

Yes, get rid of the Crows and Power in the SANFL. I can't stand either. The SANFL will be better for it. It won't make an ounce of difference to the outcomes of the Crows or Power AFL sides.

 

[Consolaçao]

This is true, AFL Victoria have slowly strangled the VFL to death and the addition of the four reserves sides from Qld and NSW was the straw that broke the camels' back.

However, in the event of a national reserves competition, I can see the VFL being restructured to include the current stand alone clubs, an independant Sandringham, Box Hill Mustangs and Casey Scorpions.

That's 9 teams, which is plenty to start off with, and maybe if it goes well a few more sides might jump on board, North Ballarat were interested in re-joining up until a few years ago, and several old VFA sides are still up and about.

The thing AFL Victoria cannot allow to happen is the end of the VFL all together, it leaves a void at the top of the state leagues pyramid and you also have 6 and a half current stand alone clubs that you are responsible for that will have no league to play in.

They could take the Fitzroy path?
Or potentially Fitzroy might join that reshaped VFA?

 

[iameviljez]

The AFL certainly did kill the VFA, and they did it by moving South Melbourne to Sydney, having them play all thier home games on a Sunday and broadcast them live into Victoria

Agree that this put the final nail in the VFA coffin, but it was just removing the sole protection that was keeping the VFA alive.

If your product is completely dependent on having zero competition or it dies, that still doesn't make it morally wrong to have competition. So yes, in a way the VFL did kill the VFA, but only in the same way that video killed the radio star. It's not like there was some kind of terrible skulduggery involved.

It would take a better historian than me, but arguably, the VFA was on life support from the moment the 8 strongest clubs split away from it, and vastly more so as four of the next strongest joined the VFL over the following 30 years.

 

[iameviljez]

It might shock you to hear this, but even if a club or a league is not rich, has a list full of champion players and a shiny training facility, they can still exist and even be successful.

This is really important as a point and I'm glad someone made it. Community clubs can have value regardless of which division they play in and how professional they are.

 

[iameviljez]

Its not Port Melbournes responsibility to put up grown men for AFL listed players to develop against. They want to play for VFL flags. The two types of clubs have different objectives and it ruins the gamr

No, it's not Port Melbourne's responsibility - which is why it's important to have VFL-listed players for the AFL-affiliated sides, rather than AFL list sizes of 55.

However, if Port Melbourne want to play as well in that league, that's up to them.

To be honest, I think that the current system is probably the best compromise that we have. IMO if we had a separate reserves competition in the AFL, and established teams like Port Melbourne broke away to form their own state league, plenty of players would then try and go for top-up roles in the reserves comp so that they could show their wares against AFL-listed players.

I think that the major problem that we're trying to solve here is really that we have so much AFL talent concentrated in Victoria that it's drowning out the other clubs.

 

[VolgaBoatman]

Seriously bad idea for WA clubs - would you put someone recovering from an injury on a plane for 7-8 hours to get reduced minutes playing ? Freo / Peel alignment works really well.

 

[Roylion]

However, in the event of a national reserves competition, I can see the VFL being restructured to include the current stand alone clubs, an independant Sandringham, Box Hill Mustangs and Casey Scorpions.

Be nice to see Sandringham, Box Hill, Casey, North Ballarat, Williamstown, Port Melbourne, Coburg, Werribee and Frankston and Northern Bullants (renamed Preston) in a new revamped VFA.

Add Fitzroy and University Blacks (currently both in the VAFA) for 12 teams.

 

[glengowan]

Align 9 of the U18 VIC teams with the current 9 stand alone VFL clubs and create three new VFL clubs in Ballarat, Bendigo and Albury/Wodonga to align with the 3 U18 VIC teams in these regions. The VFL then becomes a 12 team league with juniors in a similar set up to the SANFL and WAFL, playing a full season and having a pathway through from junior football to senior state league football.

Give each AFL club an U18 Academy with these games replacing the State U18 Championships in a shortened season. Each player maintains a link, and plays for their State League club when available. Have an U18 All-Star Game on AFL Grand Final Day.

Give each AFL club a Reserves team and run an independent AFL Reserves competition, with top up players coming from graduates of the U18 Academy who do not get drafted, or any other players under the age of 21. These players continue the link with their State League club and return if not picked, or return when they turn 21.

Run an 8 week pre-season competition in Feb/Mar with the 19 AFL Reserves teams, 12 VFL teams, 9 WAFL teams and 8 SANFL teams. Split in to 8 groups of 6, with every group having at least one team from each competition. 5 group games, then quarter finals, semi finals, final.

 

[Bjo187]

It will come in because the AFL love to piss good money up the wall, money that could be going into development and bringing new fans into the game from non traditional/ multicultural backgrounds and nsw and qld.

Instead it's being spent on having a million employees (Inc afl house, aflw 18 clubs, reserves comp) and having them overpaid and traveling around the country all the time, for stuff nobody actually cares about.

 

[Astro35]

Seriously bad idea for WA clubs - would you put someone recovering from an injury on a plane for 7-8 hours to get reduced minutes playing ? Freo / Peel alignment works really well.

WAFL has hamstrung the Beagles. Time to walk away and take the $$ to a national reserves

 

[greatwhiteshark]

WAFL has hamstrung the Beagles. Time to walk away and take the $$ to a national reserves

Nonsense, please document how they hamstrung the Eagles.
Abd the dollars won’t be going anywhere. The WAFC own the licence of the Eagles. The same royalty will be paid. The Eagles will have to start spending their own money sending players to pay in a 3rd tier colts comp.

 

[Astro35]

Nonsense, please document how they hamstrung the Eagles.
Abd the dollars won’t be going anywhere. The WAFC own the licence of the Eagles. The same royalty will be paid. The Eagles will have to start spending their own money sending players to pay in a 3rd tier colts comp.

WAFL are absolutely useless and couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The restrictions on the Beagles are well documented, try looking them up. The sooner they leave the better.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

WAFL are absolutely useless and couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The restrictions on the Beagles are well documented, try looking them up. The sooner they leave the better.

I know them, I don’t think you do. You are just talking nonsense because uuu heard it said somewhere. Do some homework and you will find out the Eagles have been helped so much it’s not funny.
And you really think the WAFL cares if they leave? They offer the WAFL absolutely nothing.

 

[Astro35]

I know them, I don’t think you do. You are just talking nonsense because uuu heard it said somewhere. Do some homework and you will find out the Eagles have been helped so much it’s not funny.
And you really think the WAFL cares if they leave? They offer the WAFL absolutely nothing.

So the same TPP as the other wafl clubs? No restrictions on recruitment?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

So the same TPP as the other wafl clubs? No restrictions on recruitment?

Do the other WAFL clubs have access to 19 AFL listed players?

So even a 2 year old would understand why they can’t have the sane TPP.

As for recruitment restrictions they don’t exist, the Eagles have not used up all their points so that’s on the club. They have recruited poorly.

Mate you have to look at the facts. This is all on the Eagles who are poor at their job.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Agree that this put the final nail in the VFA coffin, but it was just removing the sole protection that was keeping the VFA alive.

If your product is completely dependent on having zero competition or it dies, that still doesn't make it morally wrong to have competition. So yes, in a way the VFL did kill the VFA, but only in the same way that video killed the radio star. It's not like there was some kind of terrible skulduggery involved.

It would take a better historian than me, but arguably, the VFA was on life support from the moment the 8 strongest clubs split away from it, and vastly more so as four of the next strongest joined the VFL over the following 30 years.

Certainly not on life support. The VFA remained quite strong through to the 1970s. It was second fiddle to the VFL - some argue that wasn’t the case, but on the whole it was… there might’ve been particularly VFA teams etc that were very strong but they were more isolated examples… on the whole the VFL was always stronger and had the bigger clubs.

As many have said the clear demarcation of Saturday / Sunday kept it strong. The VFL played on Saturday and the VFA on Sunday, people could and would support and attend both.

The VFA leaned into played into their slightly inferior angle by pushing a more local flavour - they expanded aggressively into the middle and outer suburbs with new clubs, presenting themselves the place to go and watch the highest level football in the state (outside the VFL) on a Sunday when there was nothing else on. This had varying degrees of success.

But yes, what ultimately killed the VFA is South moving to Sydney. With the Swans outside of Victoria, the VFL was free to schedule their games on a Sunday. They did so and broadcast them live into Melbourne. The VFA now had direct competition and there was only ever going to be one winner.

 

[iameviljez]

Certainly not on life support. The VFA remained quite strong through to the 1970s. It was second fiddle to the VFL - some argue that wasn’t the case, but on the whole it was… there might’ve been particularly VFA teams etc that were very strong but they were more isolated examples… on the whole the VFL was always stronger and had the bigger clubs.

As many have said the clear demarcation of Saturday / Sunday kept it strong. The VFL played on Saturday and the VFA on Sunday, people could and would support and attend both.

The VFA leaned into played into their slightly inferior angle by pushing a more local flavour - they expanded aggressively into the middle and outer suburbs with new clubs, presenting themselves the place to go and watch the highest level football in the state (outside the VFL) on a Sunday when there was nothing else on. This had varying degrees of success.

But yes, what ultimately killed the VFA is South moving to Sydney. With the Swans outside of Victoria, the VFL was free to schedule their games on a Sunday. They did so and broadcast them live into Melbourne. The VFA now had direct competition and there was only ever going to be one winner.

You’re right, life support was the wrong term.

But perhaps the better way to say is that there was only going to be one winner