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The imagination exists....The mystery of consciousness remains unresolved by science....Deal with them apples.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Society/Culture Nobody has anything new to say about God.
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The imagination exists....The mystery of consciousness remains unresolved by science....Deal with them apples.
Pretty much. If you entertain there exists ,other worlds’ in tangible to us but theorised by both religion and science, then you have to confront the theory that this existence does not.
Exists is the best word, but its a grossly inadequate word conceptually
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The key word to his premise was 'evidence' though....Meaning tangible & empirically verifiable....Which is actually fair enough in the context of his post.
Early Christian writers who defended their beliefs against critics and recommended their faith to outsiders are Christian apologists. Clement of Alexandria was definitely one of those.
Of course their validity as accurate historical sources is questioned. They’re regarded as reasonably reliable primary accounts to such a degree that they’re concluded to have been written by authors with close proximity to the events being described and they’re fairly consistent with external sources. Certainly they were originally writtrj in Hebrew although only Greek copies surbive.
However, as you have said, and having studied hustory for close to forty years, I totally recognise primary sources—biblical or not—have to be analyzed for authorial biases and motives. Because the Maccabeees books served as proto-hagiographies of heroic figures, it’s reasonable to assume that many elements were exaggerated or sensationalized.
Similar to the Gospels, that you yourself quote frequently as historical truth, as if somehow extensively quoting theological constructs adds weight to your argument of historical truth. They don't.
Indeed. And they are criticised extensively.
We don't know they were ever available.
I know. I've personally seen the Pilate Stone.
But working off officiual records wasn't he. Calls into question his accuracy.
Please do.
Adds weight to your argument if even your enemies begrudgingly accept the truth of what you are saying.
I have no interest in arguing in favour of a particular religion. What I am interested in invesitigating and weighing up the claims of those who make said claims. I'm not Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu or an adherent of any other religious belief system that makes claims rooted in supernatural origin (although I do confess feeling some idenitification with the Pastafarians)
Not many. Any claims made about Chriat, his life, his role, his deeds, especially claims of a supernatural nature) therefore need to be critically examined.
Where's your evidence that Philo had an interest in destroying other contemporary writings about 1st century Palestine?
Yes? And? There are works from the time of Christ that have been preserved that have no mention of him
Thanks for the advice, but I'm well aware of the background of Philo.
As is most of the material you present arguing in favour of your faith.
Of course. Professor Robert M. Grant American academic theologian and the Carl Darling Buck Professor Emeritus of Humanities and of the New Testament and Early Christianity at the University of Chicago doesn't appear to know anything about his subject.
Yes of course. What would professional scholars, who have devoted large parts of their career to studying these texts and their context and who have professonal qualifications in the field know?
Michael J. White in reconciling Acts with the Episitles concludes five visits to Jerusalem. The third visit may have been fourteen years after the conversion. (Galatians 2:1) "Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also." (NIV)
If his conversion happened in AD 33, as you claim, then his third visit to Jerusalem would have been AD 47. (33 + 14).
Then we're in agreeance. Early Christianity was in many ways very similar to Second Temple Judaism. As I stated some time ago.
And therefore we rely on external sources to works of the Gospels (e.g the Pilate Stone) to verify or reject events described in what are essentially theological constructs. Especially when we are claiming events to be 'historical truth'.
Clement of Alexandria might have a been a defender of the faith but the mystic kooks didn’t pop up until 18th century.
Janus
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Of course. Professor Robert M. Grant American academic theologian and the Carl Darling Buck Professor Emeritus of Humanities and of the New Testament and Early Christianity at the University of Chicago doesn't appear to know anything about his subject.
Is his title supposed to impress me? He's a moron if he doesn't understand the migratory practices of the Jewish religious festivals and how they affected population growth in Jerusalem at certain times of the year. That was the whole reason why there were many people in Jerusalem who spoke different languages - they were proselytes and expatriate Jews returning to the Temple as commanded by their religion. All Jewish males were required to attend the Feast of Weeks.
If the Third Temple is built, guess what? All Orthodox Jews will travel to Jerusalem to attend the Feast of Weeks.
Are we really trying to suggest there was only 30,000 Jews total in the entire world in 33 CE? Because that's what Professor Robert M. Grant is trying to say.
I said his conversion happened after 33 CE, which was when Peter addressed the crowd at Penecost in Acts 2. It was probably more like 34 CE, since you had the stoning of Stephen etc. in between that time.
If you read Galatians 1:18-20, it says the following:
"Then after three years, I went up to Jersualem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie."
Add the three years after his conversion (33 CE) to his visit to Jersualem to see Peter and you get 35/36 CE. Add the 14 years in Chapter 2 of Galatians when he says 'he went up again to Jerusalem (he says again because he mentioned going to Jerusalem in the previous chapter) and you get 49/50 CE.
There is no other way to reconcile it. So Galatians had to be written after 49/50 CE, which means it was written after the Council in Jerusalem.
Of course it had similarities, they were allowed to preach in synagogues. The conversion of gentiles was a big departure and one of the reasons why Paul - the Pharisee, a son of a Pharisee - was sent to preach to them, because he had more weight behind him and was respected. Plus he was a Roman citizen so he could go more places.
I'm not claiming anything. All I'm saying is that it has the possibility of truth. I believe a man named Jesus existed. I believe he preached peace and tolerance in a time that the Jews chaffed under Roman occupation, and that his message threatened the position of the Jewish religious leaders, who saw his message as one of pacifism and acceptance of Roman rule and probably the loss of the Jewish tradition.
Did he perform miracles? It's possible. But it's not really important if he did or didn't. The message is of more importance than anything else.
Snake_Baker
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Christianity was a sophisticated government propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of a the Roman Empire, claims scholar
Rob Williams @bobjwilliams
Thursday 10 October 2013 09:46
The Independent
A controversial American biblical scholar is set to make his first appearance in London next week to present a discovery that he claims proves the story of Jesus Christ was invented as a system of mind control to enslave the poor.
Joseph Atwill, who is the author of a book entitled 'Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus', asserts that Christianity did not begin as a religion, but was actually a sophisticated government propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire.
At the 'Covert Messiah' conference, to be held at the Conway Hall in Holborn a week on Saturday, Mr Atwill will present his theory that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they entirely fabricated the story of Jesus Christ.
Outlining his ideas in a blog posting on his website Mr Atwill writes: "Christianity may be considered a religion, but it was actually developed and used as a system of mind control to produce slaves that believed God decreed their slavery."
Mr Atwill says that acts of insurrection by Jewish sects, who were awaiting the arrival of a so-called 'warrior Messiah' in Palestine, were a perpetual problem for the Roman Empire and that after the Empire had exhausted all traditional means of dealing with the problem they resorted to psychological warfare.
"They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system," Atwill told PRWeb.com
"That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented.
"Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."
Mr Atwill continues: "Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history.
To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."
Elsewhere, Mr Atwill also writes: “In fact he [Jesus] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...cn-e1LiIJrgdSinnhwxzsNwr_iLrBvd01j-fn6DXUDMKA
Rob Williams @bobjwilliams
Thursday 10 October 2013 09:46
The Independent
A controversial American biblical scholar is set to make his first appearance in London next week to present a discovery that he claims proves the story of Jesus Christ was invented as a system of mind control to enslave the poor.
Joseph Atwill, who is the author of a book entitled 'Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus', asserts that Christianity did not begin as a religion, but was actually a sophisticated government propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire.
At the 'Covert Messiah' conference, to be held at the Conway Hall in Holborn a week on Saturday, Mr Atwill will present his theory that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they entirely fabricated the story of Jesus Christ.
Outlining his ideas in a blog posting on his website Mr Atwill writes: "Christianity may be considered a religion, but it was actually developed and used as a system of mind control to produce slaves that believed God decreed their slavery."
Mr Atwill says that acts of insurrection by Jewish sects, who were awaiting the arrival of a so-called 'warrior Messiah' in Palestine, were a perpetual problem for the Roman Empire and that after the Empire had exhausted all traditional means of dealing with the problem they resorted to psychological warfare.
"They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system," Atwill told PRWeb.com
"That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented.
"Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."
Mr Atwill continues: "Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history.
To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."
Elsewhere, Mr Atwill also writes: “In fact he [Jesus] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...cn-e1LiIJrgdSinnhwxzsNwr_iLrBvd01j-fn6DXUDMKA
Adolf Hitler: Acting According to God's Will
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
Adolf Hitler: I am a Catholic
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.
- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941
Adolf Hitler: Christianity and the Holy German Reich
As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 3
Adolf Hitler: Personification of the Devil
....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.
- Adolf Hitler (following the position of Martin Luther), Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
Adolf Hitler: As a Christian, I Feel that My Lord and Savior was a fighter
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. ...
- Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
Adolf Hitler: I am a Catholic
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.
- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941
Adolf Hitler: Christianity and the Holy German Reich
As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 3
Adolf Hitler: Personification of the Devil
....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.
- Adolf Hitler (following the position of Martin Luther), Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
Adolf Hitler: As a Christian, I Feel that My Lord and Savior was a fighter
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. ...
- Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922
I don't need Mr Atwill to confirm my view that the vast majority of the organized religion thing is complete and utter fiction and a load of codswallop. Jesus was a miracle worker like Joel Osteen is today. The greatest con of all time and still going strong.
I don't think in this day and age there's any doubt it's fiction. The problem is all the mass genocide conducted under its name. Human nature appears to dictate the need for a magical god as an excuse to kill and sacrifice others.
Tandy
Norm Smith Medallist
Because they can't think of anything else plausible to make up.
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The NAZI's avowed enemy was communism.....Communism, was an atheist ideology....Hence the SS insignia combined with the cross.
German Nazism was created & funded by Western Industrialists & the establishment in order to take down Communist Russia.
Hitler also made use of high German folk-art & mythology in order to coalesce the masses into believing they were special & superior.....Hyperbole as an over-compensatory move & policy.....Post-modern Americana by any other name.
Can you think of anything more plausible to make up?
Tandy
Norm Smith Medallist
No I can't.
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Most sceptics tend to plump for the flying spaghetti monster, at this point of the debate.....It's quaintly amusing.
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He boiled for our sins.
The Michael-Angelo 'al-fresco' touch, always does it for me.
Snake_Baker
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Hear, hear
Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, an atheist who recently said he wants to formally introduce the struggling nation to secularism, will lay off 10,000 clergymen and replace them with public servants, including doctors and teachers.
Tsipras announced the plan to remove priests and other employees affiliated with the Orthodox Church as part of a larger effort to officially separate church and state. He said about a week ago that he thought the Church was going to willingly cede control of government positions. I thought he was being naïve.
Well, it turns out that Greece isn’t all that much like the United States, and his efforts seem to be paying off already. In fact, the Church agreed to the deal that included laying off thousands of government-employed clergymen.
Greece and its powerful Orthodox Church tentatively agreed on Tuesday to remove some 10,000 priests and auxiliary staff from the state payroll, in a deal that could pave the way for a clearer distinction between church and state. The Greek Orthodox Church has played a leading role in the life of the country for many centuries and is considered its official religion under the constitution.
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com...rvants/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, an atheist who recently said he wants to formally introduce the struggling nation to secularism, will lay off 10,000 clergymen and replace them with public servants, including doctors and teachers.
Tsipras announced the plan to remove priests and other employees affiliated with the Orthodox Church as part of a larger effort to officially separate church and state. He said about a week ago that he thought the Church was going to willingly cede control of government positions. I thought he was being naïve.
Well, it turns out that Greece isn’t all that much like the United States, and his efforts seem to be paying off already. In fact, the Church agreed to the deal that included laying off thousands of government-employed clergymen.
Greece and its powerful Orthodox Church tentatively agreed on Tuesday to remove some 10,000 priests and auxiliary staff from the state payroll, in a deal that could pave the way for a clearer distinction between church and state. The Greek Orthodox Church has played a leading role in the life of the country for many centuries and is considered its official religion under the constitution.
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com...rvants/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
MrPortAdelaide
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god is good, just in case nobody has said it yet
Snake_Baker
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The universe has always existed, the universe itself is "god" omnipresent, no beginning and no end.
Janus
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It really did the Romans a fat lot of good to create a Christ figure when in the years following the death of Christ - who the nation of Judea rejected - the Jews led a revolt that led to General Titus having to destroy the city of Jerusalem and caused the Jewish diaspora.
"Hey, let's invent a story that will only do us any good centuries later when Constantine makes it the official religion!"
Please stop posting articles from these 'scholarly' morons. Thanks.
Snake_Baker
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Backward
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Yes we do live in a crazy world, at least Christians dont carry on like those w***ers.
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Allow me to introduce you to our current Prime minister Sco-mo....A bloke who believes in daily interventionist miracles, speaking in tongues & other charlatanism only evangelical whack-jobs indulge in....No wonder Ruprect picked him, he'll believe anything.
Also, both Christianity & Islam derive from the same Old Testament root.....Something, something.... Pot-Kettle.
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Practising one's faith peacefully and persecuting those that do are not in the same ballpark.
