Oppo Camp Non-Eagles Discussion

[eaglevision]

Not sure what the KPIs would be and I won't pretend to know what they should but incentives should simply be financial. We can pretend that people enter the health industry because they solely care about looking after people but that would be disingenuous. Healthcare workers are people too, just like everyone else, and they should be financially incentivised to do a good job, like other industries.

KPIs would have to not be profit/cost-driven whatsoever though, otherwise it'd be no different than what it is currently. Obviously management would be required to work within a budget but as it's a public service, the aim isn't to save money, or make profit, like the private sector, but to provide the best outcomes for patients. If that requires a bigger budget from the government, so be it, although there still needs to be accountability obviously. That can be handled by an independent audit every 12 months to ensure hospitals aren't being wasteful with their spending.



I guess to put it in simple terms my view on this, is that private health should be a luxury for those who can afford it(private rooms, better meals, entertainment, bells and whistles such as spa treatments and shit while in hospital, etc) but not feel like a necessity for those who cannot. Public health should be able to get people through efficiently and provide timely care when required.

I empathise with health workers in both public and private of course, 1 of my friends is a doctor(pediatrics) in the public system while she's studying, so I get a general idea of what it entails from a work and financial standpoint. yeah, they earn a lot but man, the fees... then there's the money they have to fork out for study & exams every year before fully-specialised.



Yeah, this is what gets me. These NFPs need to be more transparent if this is how they operate, especially if they receive public funding.

I have the same opinion on private schooling as the health system by the way. Neither should receive any form of government funding, especially if backed by a large religious organisation. Public education in Australia should be at a high level, especially with how resource-rich our country is. There's no excuse to let it lapse.



Yep. There'd be a large pushback at first but if you can clear the deadwood, replace them with people who want to make a meaningful, positive difference and incentivise those people to do so, then there's no reason the system can't be massively improved.

People would rather fight over other's genitalia than push for an improvement to public systems though, which is a real shame.

Financial and attractive leave conditions would be the other consideration but again so hard to measure KPIs when you rely on some many others to pull their weight. If you gave departments more flexibility to let go of underperformers you could build a premiership hospital department list and everyone (patients and staff) would reap the benefits.

I don’t think we need the bells and whistles in private, timely surgery and a private room is more than enough. If an organisation wanted to build a bespoke hospital that’s more like a hotel I guess they can charge what they want.

The only thing I disagree with is the no government funding. You need incentive to build hospitals and private enterprise, and the same Medicare benefits for private patients is what allows private funds to stay afloat. It also eases the pressure on the public system.

In thread relevant medical discussion, I really like what Carlton is doing by having their scanners on site. God knows how they are funding it and maintaining it, I presume it is a legacy of the big Dick.

 

[Keys]

At the risk of brickbats from both sides, I think our system in Australia is exceptional and is the best system that balances social and economic priorities.

If you have something truly urgent, you will get attended to, you will get the best health care, and you can do it without paying a cent. You will not die simply because you cannot afford the insurance or the hospital bed or the drugs.

You can pay to skip the queue, you can pay to get a better quality hospital stay, and you can pay to get non-urgent stuff done. But there are systems in place that give all Australians a minimum quality of life within a reasonable enough time frame for effectively no payment on your end. Can you imagine Medicare or the PBS or NDIS in the US?

Could we do things better? Of course. I'd still prefer to be sick here than in the UK or US, though.

This x1000

Our health system isn’t perfect but if you’re unfortunate enough to find yourself with something life threatening or urgent you have access to professional treatment at little or no cost. With or without private health cover

The system could be better no doubt, but it could also be far far worse

And tbh, that goes for most things in our country because whilst the current and other recent governments of both persuasions have been run by clowns we have a good system put in place. The Hawke, Keating and early years of the Howard government did a lot of good things that have helped the country through successive years of poor governance

We are all fortunate to live here and I think that’s easily forgotten. Especially when you look at what’s happening elsewhere around the world

 

[briztoon]

A private room is nice yes but the wait time to surgery is literally life and death for some people. Even something like an ACL reconstruction the outcomes are far better if treated early, or symptom resolution by taking a gall bladder out.

I’ve worked in over 50 hospitals in four states and I’ve never seen pay decreased for staff. Redundancies, less wage increase than desired sure, but not reducing wages.

You cut wages by cutting staff numbers and hours. Thought that was obvious.

I do agree there are far too many non clinical staff collecting pay checks in a non patient facing role that is there purely due to bureaucracy.

You raised another point above about nursing motivation, and one CGAF nurse letting the whole team down.

I see this all the time in the private sector.

But it’s usually not just one nurse. I’ve seen whole wards where there’s a pervading sense of cgaf, and most often it starts with the NUM and spreads through the majority of nurses on that ward.

There’s also a lot of disconnect between departments.

A lack of understanding of how the different systems work for each department.

And a real need for far better communication.

Everyone is so caught up with protecting their own butt or role, that anything outside of their role becomes “not my problem” and a shrug of the shoulders.

And it usually starts with the nurses, because they feel overworked, and they are the direct link between the patient and every other department and role in the hospital.

Just my experience in the private system, morale is really ****ing low.

 

[eaglevision]

You cut wages by cutting staff numbers and hours. Thought that was obvious.


You raised another point above about nursing motivation, and one CGAF nurse letting the whole team down.

I see this all the time in the private sector.

But it’s usually not just one nurse. I’ve seen whole wards where there’s a pervading sense of cgaf, and most often it starts with the NUM and spreads through the majority of nurses on that ward.

There’s also a lot of disconnect between departments.

A lack of understanding of how the different systems work for each department.

And a real need for far better communication.

Everyone is so caught up with protecting their own butt or role, that anything outside of their role becomes “not my problem” and a shrug of the shoulders.

And it usually starts with the nurses, because they feel overworked, and they are the direct link between the patient and every other department and role in the hospital.

Just my experience in the private system, morale is really ****ing low.

It read as individual wage reduction, not as a reduction in collective expense by laying people off. Absolutely it happens in private, but that individual is far easier to remove than in public. In Rockingham I’ve seen a nurse sit in the tea room and eat cake and read the paper for literally 5 hours for an entire clinic whilst her colleagues worked. When challenged she simply said “I’m just here for the pay cheque”. Got reported, went up the chain and got told she shouldn’t do that again, not even a blemish on the record. If you tried shit like that on in private you’d be gone and if you somehow clung onto your job whilst challenging it, everyone would refuse to work with you.

Obviously can’t speak for your experiences, but there’s certainly a wide variety of morale levels across the private hospitals in Perth. At some it’s excellent, at some it really is depressing.

 

[MrWoollie]

I have the same opinion on private schooling as the health system by the way. Neither should receive any form of government funding, especially if backed by a large religious organisation. Public education in Australia should be at a high level, especially with how resource-rich our country is. There's no excuse to let it lapse.

Hooray.

This has crapped me for 50 years.

I went to Governor Stirling as a student back before it went through a knockdown/rebuild. At the time we had the highest pupil population in the state (over 1600) on the smallest high school site. What are now playing fields was at the time the Midland Rubbish Tip so for 1600+ kids we had a gym, a tarmacked group of netball/tennis courts and the grand total of one grass soccer/hockey pitch.

We used to spend recess and lunch hanging on the fence between Guildford Grammar and us, hoping some posh boy would stray within range so we could abuse him. At the time they had less than half our student numbers but had 32 cricket/football/soccer/hockey fields to play on.
The truth is that we were actually jealous of all the grass. So much for so few while we had nothing.

And the kick in the teeth was that they were getting more taxpayer dollars per student per year than we were.

 

[Rowan18]

Hooray.

This has crapped me for 50 years.

I went to Governor Stirling as a student back before it went through a knockdown/rebuild. At the time we had the highest pupil population in the state (over 1600) on the smallest high school site. What are now playing fields was at the time the Midland Rubbish Tip so for 1600+ kids we had a gym, a tarmacked group of netball/tennis courts and the grand total of one grass soccer/hockey pitch.

We used to spend recess and lunch hanging on the fence between Guildford Grammar and us, hoping some posh boy would stray within range so we could abuse him. At the time they had less than half our student numbers but had 32 cricket/football/soccer/hockey fields to play on.
The truth is that we were actually jealous of all the grass. So much for so few while we had nothing.

And the kick in the teeth was that they were getting more taxpayer dollars per student per year than we were.

Private schools take demand away from public schools and the parents of the students pay taxes. I understand the logic of there being some government money given to them for that reason, though there has to be a balance, as public schools need good facilities.

 

[MrWoollie]

Private schools take demand away from public schools and the parents of the students pay taxes. I understand the logic of there being some government money given to them for that reason, though there has to be a balance, as public schools need good facilities.

There does have to be a balance.

But taxpayer education funding should at the very least strongly favour the public school system. Giving more money per student per year to the already wealthy schools with their property portfolios and millions in income producing investments is abhorrent.

And that statement comes from a natural capitalist who detests what unions became in the 80's.

I remember when a federal opposition proposed an equal funding per pupil model. Can't remember which government/opposition it was but the uproar from the private school sector was amazing. Ended up getting dropped because they realised that if the parents of most private kids voted against them they'd never form a government.

 

[eaglevision]

There does have to be a balance.

But taxpayer education funding should at the very least strongly favour the public school system. Giving more money per student per year to the already wealthy schools with their property portfolios and millions in income producing investments is abhorrent.

And that statement comes from a natural capitalist who detests what unions became in the 80's.

I remember when a federal opposition proposed an equal funding per pupil model. Can't remember which government/opposition it was but the uproar from the private school sector was amazing. Ended up getting dropped because they realised that if the parents of most private kids voted against them they'd never form a government.

The disgusting thing is that you’ll find that both state and federal funding for these types of institutions will correlate with how marginal the corresponding electoral seat is.

Politicians using public money to self serve, who would have thought?

 

[bzparkes]

The disgusting thing is that you’ll find that both state and federal funding for these types of institutions will correlate with how marginal the corresponding electoral seat is.

Politicians using public money to self serve, who would have thought?

As well as which private schools/churches they attended.

Look at the money ScoMo gave Hillsong, for instance. Pure corruption.

 

[eaglevision]

As well as which private schools/churches they attended.

Look at the money ScoMo gave Hillsong, for instance. Pure corruption.

Except for Albo who can’t wait to tell everyone about his humble upbringing because it makes him both more believable and relatable.

Yes we can add nepotism to self service. Bunch of crooks.

 

[Mr Eagle]

When can we get back to making fun of Essendon and Freo?

Well it's certainly non-Eagles discussion...

 

[bzparkes]

Except for Albo who can’t wait to tell everyone about his humble upbringing because it makes him both more believable and relatable.

Yes we can add nepotism to self service. Bunch of crooks.

Haha, very true.

 

[squashface]

I reckon $old mate$ might soon enter this chat

 

[Ochre]

When can we get back to making fun of Essendon and Freo?

Hurt by Johnny Cash for mine

 

[MrWoollie]

As well as which private schools/churches they attended.

Look at the money ScoMo gave Hillsong, for instance. Pure corruption.

Hillsong. Effing cult.

Does all the cult tricks. Stops leavers from seeing kids/family. Ostracises from the community. etc.

I hate those runts.

 

[salo]

I have the same opinion on private schooling as the health system by the way.

Does this extend to incentivising staff based on student-based results/KPIs?

Because that's a majorly flawed outlook.

 

[bzparkes]

Does this extend to incentivising staff based on student-based results/KPIs?

Because that's a majorly flawed outlook.

Not necessarily with schooling, more on the fact that the government needs to prioritise public education over funding private schools they themselves attended.

 

[Boohemian]

Private schools take demand away from public schools.

This argument is a complete furphy. State Government is capable of delivering education for every child, and it’s a cop out to suggest otherwise.

I went to Kelmscott Senior High twenty years ago. We did pretty well as a school. I remember that our year won a state science comp which opened up some funding to expand the science department. But for the most part we were sitting in dark classrooms with minimal lighting with no air conditioning.

Private schools on the other hand were enjoying swimming pools and state of the art sports centres thanks to government spending.

Australian society is supposedly built around the notion of a fair go for everybody - and education is what helps individuals reach their full potential.

Instead we live in a society where the differential in the distribution of wealth is exacerbating. Rich get richer. Manufacturing is no more, and professional jobs are being outsourced overseas. Ordinary Australians can no longer afford to buy a house.

This is all influenced by Government policy, and unnecessary Government spending on private schooling is all part of the problem.

 

[KERRPOW]

If there were no private schools afl lists would collapse.

 

[KERRPOW]

I reckon $old mate$ might soon enter this chat

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

Brisbane Lions premiership player Aaron Shattock is reportedly fighting for his life in hospital after being crushed under an excavator he was driving.

 

[Rowan18]

This argument is a complete furphy. State Government is capable of delivering education for every child, and it’s a cop out to suggest otherwise.

I went to Kelmscott Senior High twenty years ago. We did pretty well as a school. I remember that our year won a state science comp which opened up some funding to expand the science department. But for the most part we were sitting in dark classrooms with minimal lighting with no air conditioning.

Private schools on the other hand were enjoying swimming pools and state of the art sports centres thanks to government spending.

Australian society is supposedly built around the notion of a fair go for everybody - and education is what helps individuals reach their full potential.

Instead we live in a society where the differential in the distribution of wealth is exacerbating. Rich get richer. Manufacturing is no more, and professional jobs are being outsourced overseas. Ordinary Australians can no longer afford to buy a house.

This is all influenced by Government policy, and unnecessary Government spending on private schooling is all part of the problem.

I agree with your sentiment, but as it stands today, there are a lot of private schools, so the public highshool system would probably have to double to fit them all in.

Interestingly, public primary schools have much higher attendance rates and seem to be pretty good across the board. The high schools (in Perth at least) are pretty concentrated and student bodies quite large, even the good ones would have plenty of forgotten students.

 

[Bender_]

Regarding Shattock - was he driving it up a steep slope? Can't imagine being about to roll an excavator another way. Thought the Jeremy Renner one was freakish enough.

 

[bzparkes]

I agree with your sentiment, but as it stands today, there are a lot of private schools, so the public highshool system would probably have to double to fit them all in.

Interestingly, public primary schools have much higher attendance rates and seem to be pretty good across the board. The high schools (in Perth at least) are pretty concentrated and student bodies quite large, even the good ones would have plenty of forgotten students.

If public schools have to double to fit everyone in, so be it, especially if private schools are getting more money anyway. You just swing that money into the public sector(considering some private schools get more funding than public ones, go figure...)

Nobody's saying private schools shouldn't exist. They simply shouldn't get more than the public system when they're only accessible to certain people above a financial threshold and parents are concerned that their kids will fall behind if they go public.

 

[Cuzz09]

Anyone with Fox tomorrow from 330pm they are showing in a row:

2016 win v GWS (NicNat goal)
2017 win v Port (shuey final)
1992 GF highlights

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