Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVII

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Gee Max King is frustrating.
 

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Whateley weighing in
Both Melbourne and the AFL should stand to account over Petracca aftermath

Christian Petracca’s season is over after undergoing emergency surgery on Monday night for what proved the most severe grading of a ruptured spleen, added to four broken ribs and a punctured lung.

Horrific internal injuries by any measure.

In the 24 hours that followed the King’s Birthday we heard that the AFL Chief Medical Officer had ticked off the procedures undertaken by Melbourne on the day.

There was no detail as to what those procedures were… nor on what basis the League approved of what looked like a particularly troubling situation.
Today the AFL chief executive Andrew Dillon offered this explanation on 3AW.

“First of all, I’m really glad to hear that he’s on the mend because it was a really serious injury,” said Dillon.

“His season is over, but he’s on the mend and I’m glad to hear that.

“He got a heavy knock, but our players are incredibly courageous. We’ve got the best medical care at the grounds and the players get that.

“As soon as he knew and the doctor saw when he went back on that he wasn’t travelling that well he was taken off and assessed again.

“He was taken to hospital unfortunately, but glad to hear he’s on the mend.”

That is patently inaccurate married up with the circumstances of the day and deeply troubling if that is the AFL’s official position.

It’s worth restating the prima facie case.

Petracca was in severe pain from the moment of impact on the quarter-time siren.

It took at least a couple of minutes before he was able to cross the field and get to the rooms.

After the seven-minute quarter-time break he sat out the first eight minutes of the second term.

From what was said by Simon Goodwin about pain management, it’s reasonable to assume Petracca was administered a pain killing injection in that time.

When Petracca returned he played for the next 21 and a half minutes unchanged.

The vision showed he was in excruciating pain and looked grey… so obviously unwell that opponents expressed their concern out on the field.

Collingwood captain Darcy Moore and midfielder Jack Crisp both asked Petracca whether he should be on the ground given what they were seeing up close.

The sequence of events offered multiple clues that Petracca’s injuries were serious and potentially dangerous.

The Melbourne medical staff did not remove him from the field as soon as it was realised he wasn’t traveling that well as Dillon stated today.

The exact opposite happened.

Despite clear signs of distress Petracca remained on the field for 21 and a half continuous minutes.

He then returned with the team after the half-time break to warm up before gesturing to rule himself out and coming to the bench before the siren to start the third quarter.

What didn’t happen was “as soon as the doctors saw when he went back on that he wasn’t travelling that well he was taken off and assessed again”.

Opponents and observers all feared things were wrong… no Melbourne official intervened as has been suggested.

We know Petracca was taken to Epworth Hospital during the last quarter and once the horrific internal injuries were revealed, he was transferred to the Alfred for surgery where he spent three nights in the ICU.

The comparison with Mason Cox’s ruptured spleen has been made.

Cox suffered a grade 1 rupture.
Petracca suffered a grade 5 rupture – the most severe on the scale.

Even while Petracca remained in the ICU it was suggested he was in good spirits and recovering well… all was fine.

I just don’t believe that to be the case.
Petracca remains in severe pain and knows the challenges ahead will last months not weeks.

He didn’t need the counsel of the club doctor to declare his season is over. He didn't seek it, he knew it.

It feels as though neither Melbourne nor the AFL want to face fair and reasonable questions as to the assessments that were made and the treatment administered on the day.

Multiple red flags were ignored in real time that raise serious questions worthy of public debate and official oversight.

Petracca played a role in putting himself back out on the field.

But the diagnosis of the true nature of his injuries was missed.

Badly.

And the risks were immense.

I think the Collingwood players knew it too.

I suspect those close to Petracca understand how close this was to a disastrous outcome and are fully aware how challenging and delicate the coming weeks are.

This is an incident that should have those responsible questioning the processes and procedures, not waving them through.

I feel both Melbourne and the AFL should stand to account on what happened.
Click to expand...
www.sen.com.au

Both Melbourne and the AFL should stand to account over Petracca aftermath

His season is over.
www.sen.com.au www.sen.com.au
 
Lore said:
Whateley weighing in

www.sen.com.au

Both Melbourne and the AFL should stand to account over Petracca aftermath

His season is over.
www.sen.com.au www.sen.com.au
Click to expand...
The area where he got the knee had me immediately thinking ribs and spleen. Any person with a medical background would know that a ruptured spleen would be the high-end injury you’d want to rule out. Surely clubs these days have access to an ultrasound machine at the very least in the rooms. Not that it would be as definitive as a CT but it might help identify splenic enlargement or haemoperitoneum early.
 
Lore said:
Whateley weighing in

www.sen.com.au

Both Melbourne and the AFL should stand to account over Petracca aftermath

His season is over.
www.sen.com.au www.sen.com.au
Click to expand...
Pretty damning timeline. I don't know doctor things, but it seems like the rush to administer a pain killer might have had the effect of then masking the symptoms? The only other plausible explanation I can think of is that the doctor was incompetent. But hey, it wouldn't be the first time someone in the position of Chief Medical/Health Officer has signed off on something without knowing all the facts.
 
Blind Turn said:
The area where he got the knee had me immediately thinking ribs and spleen. Any person with a medical background would know that a ruptured spleen would be the high-end injury you’d want to rule out. Surely clubs these days have access to an ultrasound machine at the very least in the rooms. Not that it would be as definitive as a CT but it might help identify splenic enlargement or haemoperitoneum early.
Click to expand...
Do the doctors get the opportunity to at least review video?
 
Lore said:
Whateley weighing in

www.sen.com.au

Both Melbourne and the AFL should stand to account over Petracca aftermath

His season is over.
www.sen.com.au www.sen.com.au
Click to expand...

Spare me.
General media and public weighing in on medical matters is as laughable as it is horrifying people actually think their opinion should matter.

Most people are genuinely morons when it comes to anything medical or even health related, we are also ignorant of the types of things players play with at all times.
After sitting through a ****ing pandemic and listening to the uneducated masses and people learn basic hygiene and quarantine protocols I'll pass on being lectured to by people who think they can diagnose a player injury better than the Dr actually examining the player.

When you measure this through the lens of players playing through fractures, tears etc this isn't an isolated incident.
People saying "oh they shouldn't have risked it",
Sure, please keep that energy for all the other times a high level athlete pushes the envelope.

If the proper medical checks and processes were followed, and it appears they have been and were ticked off then uneducated people more focused on the actual extent of the injury rather than the actual process should back off.
The proper process can be followed and still miss things.

People play with fractured/cracked/broken ribs much of the time.
People push through things that in the cold light of day and long term health they maybe shouldn't, but that has been high level sport for a very very long time.
It's how we get legendary stories and moments.

If people are going to suddenly be up in arms about this because they actually care about player health then I'm very keen to see the absolute massive community change in how we treat people pushing the envelope.
Wide spread condemnation of players and medical staff playing through broken or fractured bones.
Not celebratory articles and news grabs after grand finals or big games applauding bravery.

But that won't happen, this is a high profile player suffering a fairly unique/different injury than your typical hamstring or broken leg and it's media airwave filler to make money, just as it is when they wax poetic about how brave a person is that they took the field with a fractured leg.

The absolute arrogance to lecture medical professionals on what they should have done.:drunk:


Blind Turn said:
The area where he got the knee had me immediately thinking ribs and spleen. Any person with a medical background would know that a ruptured spleen would be the high-end injury you’d want to rule out. Surely clubs these days have access to an ultrasound machine at the very least in the rooms. Not that it would be as definitive as a CT but it might help identify splenic enlargement or haemoperitoneum early.
Click to expand...

I'm actually surprised we don't seem to have any imaging available, they use it in NFL to rule out breaks and many things before allowing return to play.
Though I assume that may have something to also do with the amount of painkillers they are on, pain as a measurement isn't useful when they can't feel things on a normal scale.
 

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Mercurial89 said:
Spare me.
General media and public weighing in on medical matters is as laughable as it is horrifying people actually think their opinion should matter.

Most people are genuinely morons when it comes to anything medical or even health related, we are also ignorant of the types of things players play with at all times.
After sitting through a ****ing pandemic and listening to the uneducated masses and people learn basic hygiene and quarantine protocols I'll pass on being lectured to by people who think they can diagnose a player injury better than the Dr actually examining the player.

When you measure this through the lens of players playing through fractures, tears etc this isn't an isolated incident.
People saying "oh they shouldn't have risked it",
Sure, please keep that energy for all the other times a high level athlete pushes the envelope.

If the proper medical checks and processes were followed, and it appears they have been and were ticked off then uneducated people more focused on the actual extent of the injury rather than the actual process should back off.
The proper process can be followed and still miss things.

People play with fractured/cracked/broken ribs much of the time.
People push through things that in the cold light of day and long term health they maybe shouldn't, but that has been high level sport for a very very long time.
It's how we get legendary stories and moments.

If people are going to suddenly be up in arms about this because they actually care about player health then I'm very keen to see the absolute massive community change in how we treat people pushing the envelope.
Wide spread condemnation of players and medical staff playing through broken or fractured bones.
Not celebratory articles and news grabs after grand finals or big games applauding bravery.

But that won't happen, this is a high profile player suffering a fairly unique/different injury than your typical hamstring or broken leg and it's media airwave filler to make money, just as it is when they wax poetic about how brave a person is that they took the field with a fractured leg.

The absolute arrogance to lecture medical professionals on what they should have done.:drunk:




I'm actually surprised we don't seem to have any imaging available, they use it in NFL to rule out breaks and many things before allowing return to play.
Though I assume that may have something to also do with the amount of painkillers they are on, pain as a measurement isn't useful when they can't feel things on a normal scale.
Click to expand...
I agree with your point in general that we often (almost always?) celebrate players who push it.

But there’s a threshold and it’s the doctors’ jobs to make calls on when it’s been crossed, and the club culture dictates how much those calls will be listened to. Eg if a player had a fractured cervical vertebrae and crazy tingling / loss of feeling, then they shouldn’t go back out even if they want to. There are some things you can’t leave in players hands.

No one is saying a doctors job is easy. They have no scanning equipment. They are under extreme time pressure.

Hard as the job is, in hindsight the doctors clearly got this one wrong by misdiagnosing the seriousness of the injury. But I am not critical of the misdiagnosis. They would have known his ribs were broken but maybe not the organ issues.

I’m most interested in the controllable bit which is the culture that each club has towards putting pressure on docs to mess with concussion protocols and these serious injuries.

What did the doctor say, and how did the coaching staff respond? Every club would say “the proper process was followed”. But there would be different perspectives on how that process really works, in the intense, rushed period when a player is injured mid game.

Personally I wouldn’t be risking a blue chip asset like Petracca in a home and away game if he had 4 broken ribs (regardless of spleen). But each club has its own path.

The criticism is important. Petracca could have died. It’s a healthy debate.
 
Last edited:
fairbump_playon said:
I agree with your point in general that we often (almost always?) celebrate players who push it.

But there’s a threshold and it’s the doctors’ jobs to make calls on when it’s been crossed, and the club culture dictates how much those calls will be listened to. Eg if a player had a fractured cervical vertebrae and crazy tingling / loss of feeling, then they shouldn’t go back out even if they want to. There are some things you can’t leave in players hands.

No one is saying a doctors job is easy. They have no scanning equipment. They are under extreme time pressure.

Hard as the job is, in hindsight the doctors clearly got this one wrong by misdiagnosing the seriousness of the injury. But I am not critical of the misdiagnosis. They would have known his ribs were broken but maybe not the organ issues.

I’m most interested in the controllable bit which is the culture that each club has towards putting pressure on docs to mess with concussion protocols and these serious injuries.

What did the doctor say, and how did the coaching staff respond? Every club would say “the proper process was followed”. But there would be different perspectives on how that process really works, in the intense, rushed period when a player is injured mid game.

Personally I wouldn’t be risking a blue chip asset like Petracca in a home and away game if he had 4 broken ribs (regardless of spleen). But each club has its own path.

The criticism is important. Petracca could have died. It’s a healthy debate.
Click to expand...

I didnt watch the game or closely follow commentary so was unaware until today he went back out for 21 minutes before finally coming off. That in of itself is just ****ing bizarre.
 
fairbump_playon said:
I agree with your point in general that we often (almost always?) celebrate players who push it.

But there’s a threshold and it’s the doctors’ jobs to make calls on when it’s been crossed, and the club culture dictates how much those calls will be listened to. Eg if a player had a fractured cervical vertebrae and crazy tingling / loss of feeling, then they shouldn’t go back out even if they want to. There are some things you can’t leave in players hands.

No one is saying a doctors job is easy. They have no scanning equipment. They are under extreme time pressure.

The criticism is important. Petracca could have died. It’s a healthy debate.
Click to expand...

No my general point is that people criticising are doing so now they know the result.
People are asking the question "how can the AFL sign off on this, Melbourne must have done something wrong!?"
If the proper medical process of diagnosis was followed and it was deemed to be "only" broken or cracked ribs, then it's an error in diagnosis only.
That is not that big of a deal, but people want to make it more than that.
Considering players play with cracked ribs and other issues much of the time any criticism should be through that lens. It is not unusual to test it out if that is what is diagnosed.

But we don't have those details, we the public and the media are generally ignorant of what players go through to get themselves into a position to play, what they play with.
Just a couple weeks ago miocheck played through a torn hamstring.

Due to that ignorance we assume " oh if there is any risk we shouldn't put people back on, I wouldn't take that risk"
This is what elite sports do all over the world. They push the limits.

Once again people are seeing the club involved and making leaps due to other stories that have come up in the past.
Insinuating the demons are neglectful, or incompetent medically or put their players routinely in danger.
Lloyd for us had a very similar injury, he played out the game, went to hospital and they didn't even pick it up then, it was until Dr Reid got involved when his parents called that they discovered his rupture.

I'm not sure how it can be anything other than arrogance that people feel like they are in a position to criticize and lecture how something should be done.
You are not medically educated.
You do not know the normal limits or extents clubs or players go to to play.
You were not in the room.
You did not do any examination.

(Figurative you, not you specifically fairbump_playon )
 
Mercurial89 said:
No my general point is that people criticising are doing so now they know the result.
People are asking the question "how can the AFL sign off on this, Melbourne must have done something wrong!?"
If the proper medical process of diagnosis was followed and it was deemed to be "only" broken or cracked ribs, then it's an error in diagnosis only.
That is not that big of a deal, but people want to make it more than that.
Considering players play with cracked ribs and other issues much of the time any criticism should be through that lens. It is not unusual to test it out if that is what is diagnosed.

But we don't have those details, we the public and the media are generally ignorant of what players go through to get themselves into a position to play, what they play with.
Just a couple weeks ago miocheck played through a torn hamstring.

Due to that ignorance we assume " oh if there is any risk we shouldn't put people back on, I wouldn't take that risk"
This is what elite sports do all over the world. They push the limits.

Once again people are seeing the club involved and making leaps due to other stories that have come up in the past.
Insinuating the demons are neglectful, or incompetent medically or put their players routinely in danger.
Lloyd for us had a very similar injury, he played out the game, went to hospital and they didn't even pick it up then, it was until Dr Reid got involved when his parents called that they discovered his rupture.

I'm not sure how it can be anything other than arrogance that people feel like they are in a position to criticize and lecture how something should be done.
You are not medically educated.
You do not know the normal limits or extents clubs or players go to to play.
You were not in the room.
You did not do any examination.

(Figurative you, not you specifically fairbump_playon )
Click to expand...
What’s going on here is we’re saying the industry cannot seem to properly analyse when a players has had a serious internal injury. Don’t you proceed with caution? How do you think player’s parents must feel ..”oh so if suffer a ruptured spleen and knock a lung then you can’t tell and he may continue playing?”. I mean seriously. They have a medical tent in NFL on the side of the field ..seems more advanced than our current medical game day facilities.
 
Something is really brewing at Hawthorn.

Half time v Richmond VFL, Husthwaite 15 touches (6 clearances) and Ward 15. Lewis 1 goal 2 and Scaife (who is basically Jaiden Hunter) has 3 goals 1. Ramsden, McGinness and Serong all solid.

This has consistently been the case for Ward, Husthwaite, Ramsden, Serong and McGinness recently.

McCabe, first round f-s key defender recruited last year returns soonish.

It's been a low percentage build but I think they're going to be very powerful by r1 2025.
 
Ben King goes down at Suns training holding his knee. Club confident not an ACL …according to The Age
 
This really should be an interesting match given their ladder positions but they're both just so bland.
 

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Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVII

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