Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVII

[Call Me Cake]

I thought Fagan had run his race. I'm not convinced that he hasn't. It's been a weird, particularly weak season. I don't think any final rose to any great height in terms of the quality albeit that there were some decent spectacles.

It's not that Fagan is not good, obviously, just that perhaps a fresh set of eyes is needed to help the Lions evolve. I think of it like Bomber leaving Geelong and being replaced by Scott. Admittedly, he is in year 8 and Brisbane could also be Hawthorn 2012, just about to start its dynasty. But I don't see Fagan at the same point in the cycle even if his players are.

If he didn't take them to the summit this year or didn't play finals I'd say you were right but he was able to dig them out of a rut and to a flag in a season, that deserves credit and the benefit of the doubt. Shit take.

 

[justlookingaround]

Yeah I'm still not sure whether Fagan can coach a dynasty team, but my swipe at King is more in relation to how tunnel visioned and overconfident he is in his readings of stats/trends.
He just sees that X style or X type of players wins the highest % of games based on the stats provided to him by CD, and then goes too hard at any team/coach that doesn't meet this "profile".
Today he was at a loss to explain how the lions brainstrust dismantled the swans so focused his energy on individual player efforts.

I havent had time to research but I suspect that guys like King probably criticised the 2018 Eagles in a similar fashion for being the anti-richmond.

I never got the doubts on Fagan, Brisbane have gotten better with every season he's been in charge.
Unless they have a premiership hangover, I'd back them to get even better next year. Even with a hangover they won't exactly be doubting themselves if they're outside the 8 midseason...
They are getting the kid unanimously seen as the #1 draft pick through father-son, Coleman back from ACL, another preseason into Lohmann and Morris, McCluggage in the peak of his career, Rayner becoming elite.... they are going to be good for a very long time and have the sort of list profile in which there is a real opportunity for sustained success.

Compare us and them since that 2016 draft where we finished 18/17

 

[Rick Ross]

I never got the doubts on Fagan, Brisbane have gotten better with every season he's been in charge.
Unless they have a premiership hangover, I'd back them to get even better next year. Even with a hangover they won't exactly be doubting themselves if they're outside the 8 midseason...
They are getting the kid unanimously seen as the #1 draft pick through father-son, Coleman back from ACL, another preseason into Lohmann and Morris, McCluggage in the peak of his career, Rayner becoming elite.... they are going to be good for a very long time and have the sort of list profile in which there is a real opportunity for sustained success.

Compare us and them since that 2016 draft where we finished 18/17

Looks like they will lose Joey D’s 58 goals… maybe they should make a play for Stringer?

 

[ant555]

He just coached them from fifth to a premiership. The players are highly motivated and already talking about 'running it back.' I don't reckon they think he has 'run his race' at all. You might be mistaking him for Ken.

Plus they only lost last year by a kick.

 

[ant555]

Yeah I'm still not sure whether Fagan can coach a dynasty team, but my swipe at King is more in relation to how tunnel visioned and overconfident he is in his readings of stats/trends.
He just sees that X style or X type of players wins the highest % of games based on the stats provided to him by CD, and then goes too hard at any team/coach that doesn't meet this "profile".
Today he was at a loss to explain how the lions brainstrust dismantled the swans so focused his energy on individual player efforts.

I havent had time to research but I suspect that guys like King probably criticised the 2018 Eagles in a similar fashion for being the anti-richmond.

Problem King has got is footy in the last two years has basically ripped the page out of the manual and gone full on attack mode which results in massive momentum swings and if it is on song it is hard to defend. It does not fit in any of his boxes.
Swans are a precision kicking side and an average contested side. If you can force them down the line they fall apart. They are not a really fast side. They like to move the footy fast with precision play on kicks on the angles.
He can not compute what happens now. He argued all year with Korn about the Saints being a good side.

 

[BomberFan355]

Very strange reading people say Fagan is no good, literally can’t do anymore than win a flag, from 5th no less and with a trip to the G against Geelong. Then fly back a week later and destroy Sydney. They could easily have won it last year too. Tough crowd!

 

[Vindicater]

Sydney will reload by moving Warner for an absolute king's ransom.

 

[ant555]

Very strange reading people say Fagan is no good, literally can’t do anymore than win a flag, from 5th no less and with a trip to the G against Geelong. Then fly back a week later and destroy Sydney. They could easily have won it last year too. Tough crowd!

Think it stems from people who where wrong and are now trying to justify their opinion. They have now played in 2 grand finals in a row and their finals record under Fagan is now 9-7. They have clearly eliminated the prelim final hurdle they had and also the straight sets issue. Then there where experts throwing out lines like they can not make it to the GF if they did not make top 4 as they needed a home final to win and some had well and truly written them off when they where 2/6 early in the season. Took them a few years and some good trades but they are there now and right now they are the best side from the last two seasons combined. They are the side to have played in two GF in a row.

 

[Kong]

Very strange reading people say Fagan is no good, literally can’t do anymore than win a flag, from 5th no less and with a trip to the G against Geelong. Then fly back a week later and destroy Sydney. They could easily have won it last year too. Tough crowd!

id just like to hear more about dennis pagan

 

[ghostdog]

Sydney will reload by moving Warner for an absolute king's ransom.

Apparently Paul Roos likes this.

 

[ghostdog]

Roosy reckons the Swans need to trade out a star/stars to improve because they have types who pack it in on the big stage. So who? In terms of competitive edge, I reckon it goes Heeney > Warner > Gulden. I can't see Sydney getting rid of any of them though. Maybe some of the lesser lights; Amartey? Florent? Blakey? McInerny? Campbell?

Blakey probably stays.
I'm still on the Campbell train.

 

[joey_jo_jo]

Think it stems from people who where wrong and are now trying to justify their opinion. They have now played in 2 grand finals in a row and their finals record under Fagan is now 9-7. They have clearly eliminated the prelim final hurdle they had and also the straight sets issue. Then there where experts throwing out lines like they can not make it to the GF if they did not make top 4 as they needed a home final to win and some had well and truly written them off when they where 2/6 early in the season. Took them a few years and some good trades but they are there now and right now they are the best side from the last two seasons combined. They are the side to have played in two GF in a row.

I think alot of punters /journos need to reassess how they measure what a successful coach is.
I've probably been guilty of this too but I can't think of another sport where so much weight is put on winning the big one.
There are so many variables that need to go right to win it on the day but the fact guys like Fagan/longmire and even Hinkley can get their team into contention for such a long stretch should be celebrated. Sure there is an argument that a fresh voice might be needed at Port but that doesn't mean Ken is a bad coach.

Penny dropped for me with me with the dialogue around Chris Scott, two years ago you would've heard the same sort of criticisms levelled at him. "Only won a premiership at the start when it was virtually Bombers tram" "can win at home during normal season but wilt in finals atmosphere" "wasting such a talented list". But he consistently got them to top 4. He finally wins the GF and now King and co use him as an example of what Fagan/Longmire etc should be doing.

 

[joey_jo_jo]

Roosy reckons the Swans need to trade out a star/stars to improve because they have types who pack it in on the big stage. So who? In terms of competitive edge, I reckon it goes Heeney > Warner > Gulden. I can't see Sydney getting rid of any of them though. Maybe some of the lesser lights; Amartey? Florent? Blakey? McInerny? Campbell?

Blakey probably stays.
I'm still on the Campbell train.

Roosy sounds like someone calling in to trade radio

 

[Yoda_]

I think alot of punters /journos need to reassess how they measure what a successful coach is.
I've probably been guilty of this too but I can't think of another sport where so much weight is put on winning the big one.
There are so many variables that need to go right to win it on the day but the fact guys like Fagan/longmire and even Hinkley can get their team into contention for such a long stretch should be celebrated. Sure there is an argument that a fresh voice might be needed at Port but that doesn't mean Ken is a bad coach.

Penny dropped for me with me with the dialogue around Chris Scott, two years ago you would've heard the same sort of criticisms levelled at him. "Only won a premiership at the start when it was virtually Bombers tram" "can win at home during normal season but wilt in finals atmosphere" "wasting such a talented list". But he consistently got them to top 4. He finally wins the GF and now King and co use him as an example of what Fagan/Longmire etc should be doing.

being a Tottenham Hotspur supporter and winning is not just in the AFL. Trophies in soccer is paramount to be considered successful there to.

 

[Pweter]

being a Tottenham Hotspur supporter and winning is not just in the AFL. Trophies in soccer is paramount to be considered successful there to.

I'd say US sports is slightly different where there's divisional and conference titles which need to be won in order to reach the championship series. Most other sports where there's no prize other than winning the season are pretty cut throat.

I don't follow soccer much at all, but would a mediocre season in the premier comp of any given country (EPL, Serie A etc) be offset by a good run (e.g semi final or better) in the Champions League, even if you don't take out either?

 

[Yoda_]

I'd say US sports is slightly different where there's divisional and conference titles which need to be won in order to reach the championship series. Most other sports where there's no prize other than winning the season are pretty cut throat.

I don't follow soccer much at all, but would a mediocre season in the premier comp of any given country (EPL, Serie A etc) be offset by a good run (e.g semi final or better) in the Champions League, even if you don't take out either?

English soccer is probably tiered where each club knows its place in the pyramid of English football. Unfortunately for my spurs we parade around as a big club despite being the Essendon of European football and not winning anything for a substantial period of time

 

[joey_jo_jo]

English soccer is probably tiered where each club knows its place in the pyramid of English football. Unfortunately for my spurs we parade around as a big club despite being the Essendon of European football and not winning anything for a substantial period of time

Feel your pain, the only two teams I follow religiously are the Dons and Wallabies, the downfall of both since the heights of early 00s are almost identical.