Our Dysfunctional Forward Line

[dogwatch]

It’s clear our forward line is a shambles. The small forwards are not the main problem. I shall get to them eventually but the real issue is the KPFs.

Jones is clearly one KPF but who is the other? In 3 games MC has gone with the resting ruck (Roughy or Minson). In the other three we have had three talls so any one (or two) of them could have been a marking target up forward, but it has been predominantly Cordy.

This strategy has been an utter failure so far. The three of them have played 15 games between them this year for a total of THREE goals. Even that might be OK if they were providing a target but they haven’t been. Very few marks inside 50 and seldom even a good contest. It just isn’t working.

This has put all the pressure on Jones to be the marking target and his game has suffered as a result. He has clunked a few but with the rucks so ineffectual the best defenders go to Jones and he is always struggling to find space or even to reduce the contest to a 1-on-1. We simply have to find a better option. A full-time full forward.

Our choices appear to be:

• Tom Hill – good form for Willi but maybe out injured (no explanation at this stage)
• Jarrod Grant – hasn’t been very effective so far, is not playing as FF and is not really the right build for a long term KPF
• Tom Campbell – good form but it’s mainly in the ruck and could be more of the same resting ruck problem for us. He did kick a few as a FF in the NAB Cup. He’s also a rookie so he can’t easily be promoted.
• Matt Panos – has some credits but is being played mainly in defence so no recent form. Some also suggest he’s not a true KPF type.
• Jack Redpath – improving, but too soon and anyway he’s a rookie
• Fletcher Roberts – too soon and anyway he’s being groomed as a CHB even though he was a KPF in the TAC finals.
• Zeph Skinner – not really a KPF and hasn’t shown enough anyway.
• Persist with Cordy as a permanent FF – the trouble is he has yet to take a strong mark close to goal (other than an uncontested chest mark vs GWS). He is slowly improving though.

At this stage I have no confidence that any of Minson, Roughead or Cordy will be even a 30 goal a year KPF, let alone 50. So who’s it to be?

I think we should be looking at Hill as the first choice FF for 2012. However he has to recover from whatever kept him out of the Willi match, so I think we will see Cordy back there next week.

Personally I’d like to see Panos or Campbell get a chance to show their stuff before the end of the season. We promoted Panos last year but have yet to play him. He’s been jerked around (possibly for development purposes) but now needs to be allowed to settle in one position and develop some moves and confidence. Campbell has been among the best players at Willi week-in, week-out but is standing in line behind three senior ruckman. His chance may only come if one of them gets injured.

Whoever it is, once we have a reasonable second target up forward the pressure on Jones (both physical and mental) won’t be as intense and I think we’ll see him get into the game a lot more.

Perhaps while we are waiting for Hill to recover and resume his goalkicking form we could bring both Cordy and Panos in? This would require a bit of selection creativity with Panos maybe playing more as a lead-up target. Obviously one of the half-forwards would have to make way for this to happen.

It’s getting desperate – our forward line is close to the worst in the league. Has anyone got any better ideas?

 

[tonydean]

We definitely need to use our highest pick or 2nd for a full time full forward type next season, surely there must be some running around. Someone like the no. 1 pick GWS got Patton, someone with his size would be great, but also someone who can play and not sit down at Willi all year!

 

[Sharkey66]

We definitely need to use our highest pick or 2nd for a full time full forward type next season, surely there must be some running around. Someone like the no. 1 pick GWS got Patton, someone with his size would be great, but also someone who can play and not sit down at Willi all year!

This is the problem in nutshell TD, we have the personnel who just may grow into the job but for one reason or another the are not getting a run.
We need to pick the guys now and let them learn together, to get some stability and to learn to play together as a cohesive unit.
Dogwatch pretty much nailed the problem but i would rather see if the ones we have already are up to it before we spend a valuable draft pick on another, unless that one was exceptional.

Panos/Sheman/Dahl Hill Gia/Dickson/Vez
Grant/Higgins/Smith Jones Resting Ruck

Underlined the important ones the rest interchangeable acording to circumstances/matchups etc , with Grant having a run on the wing, the others through the mid.

 

[Libba39]

I was at the game on Friday. We were beaten by a better team however I believe we could have won had there been a better forward line structure in place. Several times we kicked into the forward line to 1-on-2 or 1-on-3 situations, and on more than one occasion the one bulldog was a small (it was Dahlhaus once). This says to me:

1. We are probably sacrificing one or two extra players up the ground to win the ball around the stoppages.
2. Rotating Wil and Roughy down there is not working as they are not mobile enough to regularly double back and make contests.
3. Jones is not fit enough yet. He can lead up but doesn't have the motor to double back yet. He really looked exhausted on occasions.
4. We need another permanent tall-medium forward - NOT a resting ruckman. This player should be someone who can take a contested mark and/or bring the ball to ground (ie not Jarad Grant). The type of player who would fit this mould would be someone such as a Cameri, Darling, or Edwards. I feel that although Cordy and Tom Hill have the most potential of those coming through they are both 200cm so we would essentially be playing 3 ruckman and losing pace and mobility. In terms of size I think Panos is the best option, however his pace and ability at top level appear to be questionable. Redpath is next on the list but judging by his performances for Willy he has a long-long way to go.
5. Finally our delivery into the forward line and our leading has been woeful. Jones just can't seem to time his leads, and seems to be lacking the will or instruction to lead up the ground as a hit up player. Perhaps this is because they know there is no longer a Barry Hall further up the ground to take the next mark?

The answer. I would play Panos alongside Jones, as even if he's not up to it at least we have a regular structure in place and can formulate a system for the future.

 

[Dogs54]

I agree with the majority of comments regarding the improvement of our forward line structure however, the delivery into our forward line is the real problem and has been for several years. Barry Hall made our poor delivery look good.

The younger players will get their chance but it is a huge step up from VFL to AFL so we need to persevere and get games into the players will think can deliver. I have confidence that the MC will get it right.

 

[Walsh Bay]

You know if Man Utd/Dogs is posting, it's serious.

Simple answer, for season 2012, we don't have an answer. I'm in London atm and it's loud and clear, even here.

 

[The Standfield Principle]

Great Thread and spot on. Its the forward line that is causing the grief.
Some reasons might be
1. The lack of a second leading forward means that there is no space created in the forward line. When Jones leads up there needs to be someone else making an alternative lead. This not only provides two options but it makes the extra defender the opposition set up decide which way to go. It also makes space into which flankers and pockets can lead.

2. It was better on Friday , but forward pressure to retain the ball in the 50 metre arc. Against St.Kilda we had Gia,Higgins and Grant all in the 50 metre arc; these guys are either not quick enough or dont have the tackiling techniques to cause the turnovers that are the bread and butter of the small forward. Obviously Dalhaus does as a point of difference.

3. There is no X -Factor in the forward line; no spark, no flair.

So to some possible solutions

1. Play Matt Panos as the second lead up forward along with Jones. We really dont have anyone who can clunk a grab in the square as yet so lets go with the next best option.

2. Only one of Grant , Higgins and Gia can be our forward line at any one time.

3. Cooney plays on the half forward flank alongside Jones and Dalhaus, with occasional bursts from Sherman and Vez in the forward half . Gia stays deep in a pocket-next to Panos(who leads from the square to the arc )with Zeph Skinner getting a chance as a third deep forward. Tom Hill played off the interchange bench to round off the 7 blokes we rotate through the forward line.

I would imagine their will be a squillion other combinations -but the MC needs to acknowledge that the current structure is not likely to work ,so lets set up a new one ,and give it a reasonable trial. In summary I feel as if 2012 resembles 2005 in many ways. After our Round 15 smashing by Adelaide at Footy Park (I unfortunately attended that match with Wally G) a number of players such Bandy and Bowden had their papers stamped. We then started to seriously rebuild. Just hope that it doesnt take until Round 15 for this to occur in 2012.

 

[AJARWA]

Long term I think we've got all the players we need on our list to create a top four forward line with the exception of the jack darling type, as has been mentioned. I'd like to think Tom hill will get his chance in four or five games this year. And if it's not hill then I think we need to draft or trade for one.

Our resting rucks can all go forward but no they're not the solution.

I'd be hesitant to use another top 10 on a key forward unless it's an opportunity too good to refuse. But rather focus on two quality mids that may help to attract a gun forward (quality delivery) from the likes of the suns or gws, a player who wants to be part of footy in Victoria on the big stage. Smorgon's comments last weekend indicate they're already thinking through that.

I think we're going to have similar issues in our back six when lake and Morris go and would support the drafting of another KPD inside the top 40 this year. But that's a new thread.

 

[AJARWA]

Regarding panos... I get the feeling the coaches have recognized his limitations as a key forward and are grooming him as a third up nick maxwell, josh gibson, quarterback type. Seems to have the footy smarts and foot skills but a touch slow and no good overhead. But in saying that I haven't seen the guy play, don't get vfl in the west, just seems to be where they're headimg with him. Interested if anyone else has read that into his continued selection in defense.

 

[Igloo]

Mason Shaw, come on down! 198cm key forward in this draft, and if he's available at our pick/s we should take him. Mitch Brown from West Coast recently broke his jaw in the WAFL.
This is from Knightmare's phantom draft: (obviously says KPF ruck, but I think we can groom him just for being a KPF, rather than use him in the ruck at all).

#7 Brisbane- Mason Shaw (WA – KPF/Ruck)
Height: 198cm, Weight: 92kg, DOB: 15/01/1994
Recruited from: South Fremantle
Style: Brad Ottens/Kurt Tippett
Player comparison: Jonathan Patton
Range: 2-20
Profile: Really strong marking key forward. Had a sensation 2011 season scoring 66 goals which is a great return for the young key forward. Has good accuracy from both general play and set shot attempts. Also Shaw is a serious big game player kicking 7 goals in the grand final which is a big return and shows potential to continue being a big game player into the future. Has played in the ruck but I most like Shaw as a key forward and see that as the position where he can impose himself on matches most as a big marking target.

Agree with the fact that we need a true FF. No resting ruck, no utility, just a pure FF.
I'd like to bring in Panos for now, because I think he can offer more than the resting ruck. He may be a little undersized for a KPF, but I think he would probably end up having a third tall on him, so it should be ok.
There was an article on the Bulldogs site about him the other day, talking about him playing in defense, his life, all that sort of stuff. He talked about what his role in the AFL would be, and this was his response:

“I think I am more of a lead up type player who is getting better around the contest, so I think in AFL I would play up the ground a bit more and try to get those exit kicks out of defence.

“A few of our forwards play pretty deep so I would be used up the ground more and I could bring a bit of extra enthusiasm as well - just something different, a new face which hopefully they like.”

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/w...article/tabid/4112/newsid/134903/default.aspx

 

[1961grandfinal]

Looking at our contested markers in games and at training, the three best appear to be Jones, Lake and Campbell. If the mc think we need more deep marking options, would Lake be moved when our 3 defenders out come back from injury or will Campbell be upgraded in the middle of the year. Campbell has size and strength but unsure of his place/pace in the big league. Would he just be another ruckman and pinch hitting forward?

Cordy appears to be similar to Stanley of the saints whilst roughy is more of the tap ruckman without the run of these two but who goes forward at times.

 

[100action]

Need a contested marking type that can kick.

Hill has 6 contested marks in 5 games.
Campbell has 5 contested marks in 5 games.

Not sure if they can provide this second target at AFL level.

As said earlier we need a marking forward, I am not sure about Mason Shaw, wasn't he passed over this year?

 

[Igloo]

Need a contested marking type that can kick.

Hill has 6 contested marks in 5 games.
Campbell has 5 contested marks in 5 games.

Not sure if they can provide this second target at AFL level.

As said earlier we need a marking forward, I am not sure about Mason Shaw, wasn't he passed over this year?

Nope, wasn't passed over. This is his first year eligible for the draft. Turned 18 in January. Could go anywhere from 6ish to 15th in the draft, imo.

You might be thinking of the mini draft, im pretty sure he nominated for that as a 17 year old.

 

[dogwatch]

Good points about the delivery from the midfield. This is about 40% of the problem.

We have to accept (for now) that we haven't got a team full of Bob Murphys and Leon Camerons who can deliver lace out with great accuracy.

I think we saw the short term solution on Friday ... don't frig around with dappy little side passes, take the game on and try to break the lines. We looked much more dangerous when the ball came in quickly, even if the forward structure wasn't quite right.

 

[stefoid]

All leading key forwards are struggling these days. A resting ruck who was a good pack grab would be great so we could play jones further up the ground.

 

[Interloper]

I think it’s premature to make the call on drafting a KPF just yet as we haven’t seen what either Campbell or Hill have to offer at senior level. With Hill in particular, an upside glimpse of what could be in 2014 would be enough to stall an early KPF draft as I tend to the view that we should go flat out in this year’s draft for top drawer mids who are excellent kicks, decision makers and show composure under pressure. Develop them as a unit with Liber, Griffin and Dalhaus in particular over the 2013 and 2014 seasons. The avenue to goal is more pressing for mine at the moment. Over the next two and half years, all of Hill, Roughead, Campbell and Cordy will develop physically (body mass and endurance) as well as accumulate experience. Even without drafting a KPF this year or next (and assuming Hill and Campbell show something) we might be better placed than currently appears.
We might rattle a few cages in 2014 and be showing enough to lure an experienced KPF, if we need one, for the 2015 and 2016 seasons off the back of quality ball supply from a strong midfield unit and a well-managed salary cap.
In the meantime, some evaluation through exposure needs to happen. In my view, Roughy is a ruckman who has vision and composure in general play. He is better as part of the avenue to goal through the centre of the ground rather than a target up front but is part of a holding pattern this year while he and others mature, and the time he spends up front will not hurt in the longer term.
Reports suggest that both Hill and Campbell can kick from 50m and their performances may well dictate the positional future of Cordy. Someone is likely to get squeezed positionally in the longer term. I don’t see Roughy up there (forward) unless resting and that still probably leaves one too many amongst Hill, Campbell and Cordy when you factor in that Jones will be in there somewhere too. And while Minson is playing an important role this year and carrying the workload where others don’t have the physical maturity/capacity to do so yet, in the longer term (2014+) I see him as the most vulnerable, especially if Campbell comes on.

 

[Snake Livermore]

[FONT="Arial"]You know if Man Utd/Dogs is posting, it's serious.[/FONT]

I think a lot of people posting on thisthread will be disappointed by selection this week. McCartney has a plan and he is slowly building towards it. He's not one for wholesale changes and completely renovating the forward line. I don't think it's a disaster, although I agree that the resting ruckman and Ayce haven't been much use.

We looked dangerous for a period on Friday night, and that was the 3rd quarter, when Jones was decoy leading, taking the best KPF and the designated third man up with him, leaving Gia one on one. This is the blueprint going forward, except I think we'd all love it if it was Ayce or Tommy Hill being left one out and taking contested marks and kicking goals rather than Gia (nothing against him, but he's not the future).

The fact that Jones is getting this sort of nous, and the forward line is getting some cohesion is testimony to the fact that the players are learning, and are taking steps forward. Justifies continuing down this path to me, with Ayce or Tom in as an extra permanent forward.

 

[TMoney22]

Drafting another KPF is going to take another 4 to 5 years to see any benefits. Unless they are a freak and able to play in the first/second year but anyone like that would be taken at pick 1.

There is no answer to our forward line this year and probably next year. Hopefully by 2014, Hill, Panos, Jones, Cordy will have played a number of games to be confident up forward and able to hold their own. After that we hope they will start to dominate with some others pushing for their spots.

The dysfunctional forward line must remain to get games into these guys. Its going to hurt us but we have to go through it. I'd aim to give Hill and Panos 7-10 games each this year. It may hurt us but we need to do it

 

[bullish23]

Jones can take a mark, we all know that. But the amount of times he runs or gets pushed under the ball is so frustrating. Further his kicking and fitness levels need a LOT of work.

Gary Lyon wasn't very complimentary on MMM friday night, basically saying he is miles away from being a top player. If i was being truthful i thought the exact same thing, which was quite depressing bc i had high hopes going into the season for his development.

And this excuse of always attracting the best defender is a bit of a cop out i reckon. Keefe who didnn't even play the game until been drafted handled him quite comfortably i thought.

Every time i watch the WCE i wonder how the hell Darling was not drafted until pick 27.

Argh, the life of a doggies supporter.......

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

We are depleted of full forwards with Bazza and Johno both retiring in the past two years.

It doesn't help watching Josh Hill win the Ross Glendenning medal, with four goals against the Roos, although I wish him well - unlike many on here I would imagine.

I think this will hold us back this year, and I hope drafting a power forward will be our number one priority in the draft at the end of the year. Does anyone know of any likely types in the draft?

 

[100action]

Those performances from Josh are not surprising, he always did that at the bulldogs, constantly got 3-4 goal hauls. What he needs is consistency and being able to reproduce that on a tough opponent or in a high pressure final remains to be seen.

 

[Igloo]

We are depleted of full forwards with Bazza and Johno both retiring in the past two years.

It doesn't help watching Josh Hill win the Ross Glendenning medal, with four goals against the Roos, although I wish him well - unlike many on here I would imagine.

I think this will hold us back this year, and I hope drafting a power forward will be our number one priority in the draft at the end of the year. Does anyone know of any likely types in the draft?

I mentioned Mason Shaw on the previous page. 198cm tall key forward from WA. Gave a paragraph from Knightmare's phantom draft too. He's a good mark as well, which is what we need.
Some people believe we shouldn't draft a key forward, because it will take too long to get any reward from it.
I think it's in our best interests to get a young tall, purely develop him as a FF, and then reap the benefits from playing him early. I hope we do go for him.

 

[Ant_]

Those performances from Josh are not surprising, he always did that at the bulldogs, constantly got 3-4 goal hauls. What he needs is consistency and being able to reproduce that on a tough opponent or in a high pressure final remains to be seen.

Josh has the luxury at West Coast of being the 4th forward. With Cox/Nat, Darling and JK taking the bigger bodies players. Hill has always been a fantastic contested mark, though he can get out bodied easy by bigger players. At the Dogs he would not have the quality tall timber up front to ease the burden.

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

The best FF at the club is Brian Lake. His marking and strength were good enough to control Cloke- so I'm guessing he would be a handful for most FB's. His 55m kick on the run on Friday show how good his goalkicking is.
I know our backline is depleted but Austin and Markovich have held good opponents this year and we should have Morris and Williams back eventually.

 

[Doggy09]

The best FF at the club is Brian Lake. His marking and strength were good enough to control Cloke- so I'm guessing he would be a handful for most FB's. His 55m kick on the run on Friday show how good his goalkicking is.
I know our backline is depleted but Austin and Markovich have held good opponents this year and we should have Morris and Williams back eventually.

Until then, if Lake is up forward, cricket scores will be kicked on that back line..