Our horrific midfield, and recruiting decisions

[The Dr]

There are so many issues with our club at the moment but one obvious on-field problem is our midfield. Yes, we've been unlucky with some midfield picks that didn't work for different reasons (Scully, Gysberts, Morton etc) but it's been obvious for years our midfield is devoid of talent and depth.

Which brings me to, why didn't Neeld/the club load up on midfield talent in the offseason? We recruited Gillies (fringe KPP), Pedersen (fringe KPP) and Dawes (solid KPP). In the GWS minidraft, we gave up a fair bit to get Hogan (young KPP - admittedly we got Barry as part of that deal, and it may have had something to do with Viney slipping to the second round, and Hogan looks a star in the making).

Anyway, why on earth wouldn't we have gone for more mids, as opposed to Gillies and Pedersen in particular?

And please tell me the club actually made a play for Caddy, Stevens, Wellingham... or any other out-of-contract midfielders....

The next draft and exchange period has to be all about the midfield (as it should've been last year)

 

[LeverPuller]

We did make a play for David McKay from Adelaide IIRC, but he didn't want to leave.

 

[Eth]

We did make a play for David McKay from Adelaide IIRC, but he didn't want to leave.

And because an outside runner like Mackay would solve all of our problems anyway.

 

[CowboyFromHell]

And because an outside runner like Mackay would solve all of our problems anyway.

Would be our second best midfielder by the length of the Flemington straight at the minute.

It's a fair point though. We lack plenty of talent in there, but also consistency as well. It's not an easy fix.

 

[demon21]

When u are down near the bottom u have so many holes to fill so u are not going to be able fill them in 1 draft, We got 2 mids in Viney and Toumpas and where both rated top 5 picks and got barry as well so thats a start, and i hope with our high pick this year we will use that on a mid too.

 

[rhaz]

Trade Jamar and our second round pick to GWS for one of their mids coming out of their initial 2 year contract. They'll need an older ruck when Brogan retires?

 

[Crusty Demon]

We actually do have depth through the midfield. Just not quality depth. Players who could run through the midfield are:

N.Jones
Trengove
Grimes
McKenzie
Sylvia
Rodan
Jetta
Bail
Blease
Tappscott
Davey
Viney
Toumpas
Taggert
Barry
Evans
M.Jones
Kent

Throw in our rookies in Magner, Clisby, Stark and Couch and you have plenty of depth. Granted, some of them don't have the tank or experience to run through the midfield on a whole game basis, but we have plenty of midfielders. Just not quality ones.

I highlighted our top 5 current midfielders. All fit and firing, they stack up. Viney will be quality, as will Toumpas over time. From what I've seen of Dom Barry, the kid has pace and can play. He'll be ok. Blease and Tappy lift there endurance while a Matt Jones, Kent and Taggert improve rapidly, it has potential IMO.

IMO, they just lack direction and endeavour. I've seen all those players I've highlighted play blinders and look a million bucks. They can do it. They need direction and confidence. Royal should be held accountable, and would be the first person I would sack at the club. Give the boys direction and our midfield can at least compete. You cant' tell me with the names above we can't at least compete.

I agree our midfield is the worst in the comp atm. But I honestly feel we have the depth. Sydneys' midfield atm is very very good. However, only a number of years ago when they were still playing consistent finals football, it lacked stars and was very workmanlike, but it got the job done week in week out. Surely we have the cattle that can do the same. Direction and endeavour boys...

 

[LeverPuller]

We need Magner in, almost need for someone to have an 'injury' to promote him off the rookie list. Can you play in the VFL if you've got on the LTI? Dom Barry would be my candidate...

 

[Eth]

Would be our second best midfielder by the length of the Flemington straight at the minute.

It's a fair point though. We lack plenty of talent in there, but also consistency as well. It's not an easy fix.

Can't disagree with that...but I feel like Mackay's one of those players who thrives more so amongst a quality midfield than others might.

Trade Jamar and our second round pick to GWS for one of their mids coming out of their initial 2 year contract. They'll need an older ruck when Brogan retires?

Such as Giles?

Wouldn't mind dangling a decent contract and draft pick in front of someone like Shiel, even though he'd command a fair price.

 

[LeverPuller]

Wouldn't mind dangling a decent contract and draft pick in front of someone like Shiel, even though he'd command a fair price.

Liam Sumner is the only one out of contract right now IIRC

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

We need Magner in, almost need for someone to have an 'injury' to promote him off the rookie list. Can you play in the VFL if you've got on the LTI? Dom Barry would be my candidate...

To my knowledge you can't.

With McKenzie back in there and hopefully Bail soon - at least we'll be able to 'compete' 3 'two game players' in your starting midfield is an absolute recipe for disaster.

They don't know where to run, offensively and defensively - aren't strong enough, etc, etc.

 

[The Dr]

We actually do have depth through the midfield. Just not quality depth. Players who could run through the midfield are:

N.Jones
Trengove
Grimes
McKenzie
Sylvia
Rodan
Jetta
Bail
Blease
Tappscott
Davey
Viney
Toumpas
Taggert
Barry
Evans
M.Jones
Kent

Throw in our rookies in Magner, Clisby, Stark and Couch and you have plenty of depth. Granted, some of them don't have the tank or experience to run through the midfield on a whole game basis, but we have plenty of midfielders. Just not quality ones.

I highlighted our top 5 current midfielders. All fit and firing, they stack up. Viney will be quality, as will Toumpas over time. From what I've seen of Dom Barry, the kid has pace and can play. He'll be ok. Blease and Tappy lift there endurance while a Matt Jones, Kent and Taggert improve rapidly, it has potential IMO.

IMO, they just lack direction and endeavour. I've seen all those players I've highlighted play blinders and look a million bucks. They can do it. They need direction and confidence. Royal should be held accountable, and would be the first person I would sack at the club. Give the boys direction and our midfield can at least compete. You cant' tell me with the names above we can't at least compete.

I agree our midfield is the worst in the comp atm. But I honestly feel we have the depth. Sydneys' midfield atm is very very good. However, only a number of years ago when they were still playing consistent finals football, it lacked stars and was very workmanlike, but it got the job done week in week out. Surely we have the cattle that can do the same. Direction and endeavour boys...

Good post, and you're probably right. We have reasonable depth in workmanlike C-graders. A lot of the blame must be pointed at Brian Royal, who has had an eternity to improve the midfield but failed.

Still, in hindsight, would've much preferred to go for Stevens instead of Pedersen, and Caddy or Wellingham instead of Dawes (although he may prove a good pick-up)

 

[Crusty Demon]

Good post, and you're probably right. We have reasonable depth in workmanlike C-graders. A lot of the blame must be pointed at Brian Royal, who has had an eternity to improve the midfield but failed.

Still, in hindsight, would've much preferred to go for Stevens instead of Pedersen, and Caddy or Wellingham instead of Dawes (although he may prove a good pick-up)

To be fair we needed another tall forward, so I don't have any issues going for Dawes(but yes, we paid overs). The one that hurts is the Gysberts out and Pederson in. I would have kept Martin and Gysberts. Gysberts hasn't shown a lot at Nth(yet), but he never had a good run at it IMO. Caddy and Wellingham were never going to come to MFC. Stevens we should have gone for instead of Rodan for sure. But I still don't think Stevens is any better than our top 6-8 midfielders.

 

[HarveyWallbanger]

The biggest problem is Jamar - can't ruck. He is a log at the moment. So do we employ the Blight theory and just rove to opposition ruckman?

Surely Maxy Gawn, even underdone, with 20 disposals, 20 hitouts, 2 goals and most effective tackles gets a crack at it?

 

[Tulip]

I feel like we should've gone with Wines. Poor Jimmy, he's really going to battle to make it at the Dees with our lack of protective bodies. He would've certainly gone at Pick 5 over Macrae with Stringer going at 6 - and he was the outstanding candidate, but he would have been far better off at the Doggies with Cooney, Cross, Boyd and Griffen around him there.

Also, we chose to recruit, and release, Gysberts and Morton. No bad luck there.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Jimmy will develop well, he's got the right work ethic and attitude - he just needs the strength to compliment it.

 

[melbournemartin]

Trade Jamar and our second round pick to GWS for one of their mids coming out of their initial 2 year contract. They'll need an older ruck when Brogan retires?

I'd honestly consider that but only if Gawn came on this year. If not, we have nothing but Fitzpatrick who isn't very good, Clark who is needed forward and part-timers in Sellar and Pedersen.

 

[MeisterBot]

Sorry for the intrusion (spending a bit too much time on this board lol)

Tend to agree with the sentiment here re: midfield. On paper, it's not a world-beater's midfield but it ought to be competitive. Midfield coaching and development is big problem for you guys. Royal ought to be made accountable.

Though I'm not sure that picking up Stevens, Caddy, Wellers, etc would've made much difference. I don't think Koby Stevens would've offered you anything that you don't already have and Caddy seemed to be set on the Cats.

As for Wellers, he frustrated us much like Sylvia does you. Has all the talent in the world, but seems to use it only when he felt like it, rather than having consistent performances. He never pulled out of contests or anything, but he'd cruise around in 2nd gear and the gulf between his worst and best is massive. He's had his share of off-field issues too. Was suspended last year for the same reason Swanny was, though it didn't make a big media splash.

Heading home to a disciplined unit like the Eagles might just be the thing he needs to make the next step, but he would've never gotten anywhere at Melbourne.

If possible, you should use the mid-season rookie promotion on Magner and have a starting line-up of:

C: Trengove, Sylvia, Grimes
R: Jamar, Jones, Viney

With Magner and McKenzie on the bench to make up the engine room. Blease, Howe and Tappscott rotating in from the forward line. Perhaps Trengove instead of McKenzie on the bench, doesn't really matter. With the exception of Sylvia, I can't imagine one of those players completely dogging it or shirking a contest. And if there's any on-field leadership at all, he will cop a spray from one of Viney, Jones, Grimes or Trengove if he puts in piss poor efforts.

It's a tough unit that in theory, shouldn't give up much ground.

Don't know why Neeld persists with Toumpas, he's not ready yet. Rodan to be specialist sub or dropped. He's a good bloke and hard trainer, but he offers nothing for 3 1/2 quarters on game day.

Now, if you want to look at ready-to-play midfielders for next year, I'd look at a Free Agent senior (~30) midfielder who isn't bit player, but a mainstay with the intention of him replacing Royal as your midfield coach in the future. Basically, what GWS have been doing.

IMO, Daniel Cross would be great for the club in that regard. Possibly Kane Cornes, though I don't think he'd leave Port.

And if there's some sort of cleanout or if Sylvia leaves, I'd take a look at supplementing the list using players from the state leagues. They're not all battlers. Jack Frost, Sam Dwyer and likely Kyle Martin on our end are all ready to play at a high level in the AFL from the word go.

Not every pick is a Barlow or a Dwyer (hopefully) but that's what your scouts and recruiters are paid for: to identify the right talent to fit your needs, structure and culture you're trying to build.

With the expansion clubs stockpiling a lot of the young talent, other ways of finding quality players is more of a necessity with the state leagues, academy players and intentional rookies becoming more popular.

 

[Blackas87]

Gysberts for Pederson was a big mistake.

Leaving Magner on the rookie list is mind blowing.

Neeld said in the presser after the game: Jones is our only midfielder and Viney his only real help out there"

Gysberts and Magner would both walk into our midfield right now.

 

[BrunoV]

You need to ask which of those players you actually shouldn't have taken. Player development at MFC is a vacuum. Even if Trengove, for example, wasn't worth pick 2 (which was hardly the commonly held view) he was easily in the top 10 but he isn't even at the level mid placed first round pick.

Another that confuses me is Tapscott. I can tell you that our board was salivating at the prospect of recruiting him (and he was supposedly on our radar but we opted for a different sort of player). He is exactly the sort of player you'd expect Neeld to like but he can't get a game.

Talent identification is the easy part. If there is anything that we have learned from Geelong, Sydney, Collingwood and Hawthorn it is that the best way to have good players is to develop them in a well resourced and well run system.

 

[melbournemartin]

We were salivating after Tapscott's first game. He got 20+ touches roaming half back, had a few big bombs from the kick in and a few big hits. Barely see any of that now.

 

[Captain Jack]

Here comes an essay.

I had a lengthy think about our woes the other night, in a Butterfly Effect kind of way... I was trying to trace back to the root of all things bad about the MFC, specifically in the midfield. I could go all the way back to Norm Smith I guess, but the two crucial aspects I finished at were Scott Thompson and James McDonald... and also our drafting.

For as long as I can remember, our midfield has been almost completely devoid of good solid senior players in leadership roles. I'm too young to have really seen Thompson play for the MFC, but watching him now for Adelaide, you have to wonder what could have been if he had been insane enough to stick with us right up until now. He'd probably be the captain, for a start. We'd be a better team just for his ability to play footy, but more importantly I think as a central figure in the middle. This is something we have completely lacked.
Let's think about our senior players in recent times:
Neitz - champion, KPP, was gone before all this crap though.
McDonald - heart and soul. Genuine midfielder.
Green - good solid player, only really a HFF/wing type though.
Bruce - another flanker.
Miller - good bloke, amazingly hot wife, wafted around the footy field though.
Rivers - solid backline role player.
Davey - bit-part player, easily tagged out of it and often injured anyway.
Moloney - front-runner.
Sylvia - front-runner, should be our best player but lazes about on the flank.
Jamar - great ruckman for one year, solid apart from that. Not a leader.
Robbo - X-factor, not a leader.
Johnstone - prize front-runner.
McLean - gone. Could have been so much for us in the middle.

Fair to say there's a theme there. Apart from McDonald (and Neitz going further back, what a man), all our senior players over the last 6-8 years have been flankers and role players. Very few were the sort of players who could really get in, get their hands dirty and really impact a game when the going got tough (which has been often).

In their stead, let's have a look at the players who have been in at centre bounces recently.
Jones - what a man. Is only a 'senior' player because the rest have left.
Trengove - young, and then injured. Not yet ready to lift the team like he will in future hopefully.
Grimes - love him, but should be HBF rotating into the middle - at this stage anyway.
McKenzie - good tagger, limited otherwise.
Scully - got out while he could... when he did play, was too skinny for the middle anyway.
Viney - has played 2 games FFS. Saviour. Future captain.
M Jones - also 2 games.
Gysberts - had to run around in the shower to get wet, but yet lined up on Ablett in his first game.
Magner - solid, but limited and lacking in experience.
Morton - lol.

Surely a recipe for disaster. Meanwhile at Collingwood and Geelong, young players are introduced seamlessly on the flanks and wings around seasoned professionals who do the hard yards in the middle. If most of those kids named were at one of those clubs, they'd all be twice the player most likely. At Melbourne they were thrown to the wolves (or Cats or Magpies) while the 'leaders' wafted around the outside looking important.

So after saying not much in many many words, here's what I mean:
James McDonald being pushed into retirement was the beginning of the crap. If he had been around for another year or two, our young mids would have learned so much from his leadership.
Scott Thompson leaving back in 2004 was also terrible for us in hindsight. He could have been the only star midfielder we've had in years.

It sounded better in my head, but there you go.

 

[CowboyFromHell]

Gysberts for Pederson was a big mistake.

Leaving Magner on the rookie list is mind blowing.

Neeld said in the presser after the game: Jones is our only midfielder and Viney his only real help out there"

Gysberts and Magner would both walk into our midfield right now.

Why? What difference would Gysberts make? Just because he is a midfielder doesn't mean he would provide anything different, or better, to the guys we are sending out there.

 

[Blackas87]

Why? What difference would Gysberts make? Just because he is a midfielder doesn't mean he would provide anything different, or better, to the guys we are sending out there.

not right now, but he was only a 21 year old kid. The game is won in the midfield. We lack quality players in the midfield and lack good depth. We need these young midfielders to step up. But we traded him for Pederson, with also Clark, Dawes, Sellar and Hogan on our list, where does Pederson fit in? I can't see him being much more than just a back up. Long term midfield prospect gone for a back up KPF. Our midfield is the worst in the league and doesn't look too bright in the future either, back to the draft we go.

 

[Captain Jack]

not right now, but he was only a 21 year old kid. The game is won in the midfield. We lack quality players in the midfield and lack good depth. We need these young midfielders to step up. But we traded him for Pederson, with also Clark, Dawes, Sellar and Hogan on our list, where does Pederson fit in? I can't see him being much more than just a back up. Long term midfield prospect gone for a back up KPF. Our midfield is the worst in the league and doesn't look too bright in the future either, back to the draft we go.

Now that we're looking back on those decisions, they do start to look strange. The word was that Gysberts didn't want to work hard enough to meet Neeld's standards, along with others who were sent packing such as Martin and Moloney. He was after replacements who would work hard and set standards for the remainder, and Pederson came with good wraps in this regard, having worked his way onto an AFL list.
I think we're all starting to wonder if Neeld could have done more to bring players such as Gysberts up to league standards, as opposed to just laying down the law, saying "my way or the highway" and then ditching them. Maybe he has been too authoritarian and not enough of a 'people manager' - not all players respond well to that sort of ultimatum.

That said, I'll stick by Neeld for a while yet, he needs real time with the new group to see if his philosophy has worked.