Prediction Our side round 1, 2020...?

[Scubaveg]

Can we just a McStay debate thread. Anybody who wants to debate it can just go to that thread and the rest of us can avoid it.


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[Nunez]

Can we just a McStay debate thread. Anybody who wants to debate it can just go to that thread and the rest of us can avoid it.


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This has been some of the best McStay discussion I've seen on the board. Very little in the way of trolling and getting personal which is not usually a trait when discussing Dan.

 

[3KZ is Football]

This has been some of the best McStay discussion I've seen on the board. Very little in the way of trolling and getting personal which is not usually a trait when discussing Dan.

Well said.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I think part of the problem with McStay is expectations.I remember a match against Melbourne at the MCG in I think his first or second year where he basically won the match , took heaps of screamers and kicked 3 or 4 goals.
I for one have been waiting for a repeat but it just hasn't happened.

Three perhaps? Four goals is his biggest bag and he got that once, against Carlton a few years ago.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The McStay debate just highlights how some people don't learn to adapt. Yes in 80s-00s everyone played one key CHF who would roam the 50m arc and one key CFF who would sit in the goal square. These two positions key job was to grab a mark and goal. The game has changed from that.

Okay, but Richmond and GWS both had two solid key forwards and made the grand final last year.

Wont stop the same people shitting on McStay because he is not Lynch and its not the 00s anymore in AFL tactics.

I accept he has a role, I just wonder whether we need someone else in the team to do the things McStay can't. We need a bit extra over last year to be able to win a flag, and maybe that's a forward who can reliably mark and kick for goal accurately. Maybe it isn't, also, but it's worth having the discussion.

 

[Scubaveg]

This has been some of the best McStay discussion I've seen on the board. Very little in the way of trolling and getting personal which is not usually a trait when discussing Dan.

It’s everywhere though right. In every thread. Can’t we just pick one thread for it rather than every thread be used for it...


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[Nunez]

It’s everywhere though right. In every thread. Can’t we just pick one thread for it rather than every thread be used for it...


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It was in the match day thread then moved to his one. Not exactly every thread, although I avoid the over 50s clique

 

[bungalow_bill]

The McStay debate just highlights how some people don't learn to adapt. Yes in 80s-00s everyone played one key CHF who would roam the 50m arc and one key CFF who would sit in the goal square. These two positions key job was to grab a mark and goal. The game has changed from that. McStay is essentially a small forward in a 1.96cm body. He tackles/harrases and neutralises contests whilst also playing a similar CHF forward role in defense when he is the get out kick on the wing or D50 arc. People taking pot shots at him after his Marsh 2 game are biased. 2 goals 3. 14 disposals and 6 marks up and down the wing as that get out kick. Numerous pressure acts. Just look at that Berry goal, chaos high up and under enters the F50 goal square; McStay attracts 2 blocks and Berry is left to grubber it in. Thats what McStay does. McStay is only 4cm taller than Berry. Comparing McStay to Tom Lynch (Rich) or Charlie Dixon is not like for like. McStay is more like Tom Lynch (Crows). Fullerton, Ballenden and Skinner (post ACL) do not have the fitness, muscle strength or athleticism to play this role. Wont stop the same people shitting on McStay because he is not Lynch and its not the 00s anymore in AFL tactics.

This. People who think McStay should play like an old school forward just don't fully understand the modern game. The sooner they accept that isn't McStays role the happier they will be

 

[pauldrc]

Agree...

We do not currently have anyone better to play McStays's role on our roster...

If we did, they would clearly be in the team in his place.

 

[Scubaveg]

It was in the match day thread then moved to his one. Not exactly every thread, although I avoid the over 50s clique

The preseason thread as well and most likely in three new threads every week for the rest of the season...team selection, game day and post Morten...sorry I’m just projecting forward now


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[M Malice]

My latest side for round 1.

Outs- Everyone.

Ins- Nobody.

 

[Section 5]

This is my second and last guess on round 1 team. A few changes from my 3/12/19 side
I prefer arguably the best winger from 2019 Hugh McCluggage to stay their with stints in the midfield.
However from exposed games that may not happen.
Main discussion points have been the half back positions
Birchall, Witherden, Answorth, AhChee & Starcevich
Last Sunday Fagan said they have made some changes during the pre season and games.
Some have worked some need improvement or dumped he said.
I had previously stated no player should debut for a pressure round one game
With no crowds in round one i have changed my mind and included Robertson
The below side does not have much disruption from the regular 2019 team announcements

FB: Birchall, Andrews, Gardiner
HB: Rich, Adams, Witherden

C: Bailey, Neale, Robinson
R: Martin, Lyons, McCluggage

HF: McCarthy, Hipwood, Zorko
FF: Cameron, McStay, Rayner

IC: McInerney, J Berry, Answorth, D Robertson

Others : Ah Chee, Starcevich, CEY, Christensen + A bolter is always a chance

 

[martinson]

Take your blinkers off and review his kicking elsewhere on the ground. Yes he is a real worry in front of goal but elsewhere he is very good.

His kicking when running across half back or down the wing is very good.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Okay, but Richmond and GWS both had two solid key forwards and made the grand final last year.

I accept he has a role, I just wonder whether we need someone else in the team to do the things McStay can't. We need a bit extra over last year to be able to win a flag, and maybe that's a forward who can reliably mark and kick for goal accurately. Maybe it isn't, also, but it's worth having the discussion.

I think you make a great point Johnny Bananas. Lets look at the two Grand Finalists last season and I'll throw in Josh Kennedy's 2018 Stats when West Coast won the Premiership.

At Richmond, Tom Lynch kicked 63 goals and only had 2 games where he didn't kick a goal.
At GWS, Jeremy Cameron kicked 76 goals and only had 2 games where he didn't kick a goal.
At Brisbane Daniel McStay kicked 21 goals and had 11 games where he didn't kick a goal.
At West Coast Josh Kennedy (in an injury interrupted year) kicked 43 goals and scored in every game he played in 2018.

Of course the comment that I hear most often when discussing Daniel McStay's performance as Full Forward is that he is playing a "role" and his success is not measured by goal kicking. That "role" appears to be to make a contest, bring the ball to ground and to apply offensive pressure on opponents inside 50. My point is that both Tom Lynch and Jeremy Cameron perform the same "role" as Dan McStay while also kicking goals. It appears that those who wish to defend McStay's selection at Full Forward are happy to take the Full Forward's key role, to kick goals, out of his job description for some reason.

Let's think about the idea that McStay's "role" is to make a contest and bring other players into the game. It is often implied by those who support McStay's selection at Full Forward that he has somehow contributed to our overall team scoring in an indirect way through his work in the forward line. Once again, lets do a straight comparison for last season looking at Goal Assists in 2019.

At Richmond, Tom Lynch had 16 goal assists
At GWS, Jeremy Cameron had 12 goal assists
At Brisbane Daniel McStay had 9 goal assists
At West Coast Josh Kennedy had 4 goal assists in 2018 in a year where he played 14 games.

The idea that in the "Modern Game" you don't need a traditional Full Forward who kicks goals doesn't ring true when we look at the teams who are making Grand Finals or winning Premierships.

None of this is a criticism of Dan McStay as a person. His tackling stats are better than any of the players I have mentioned and he tries his guts out, week in and week out. My point is that he is being played out of position and should be a defender. He is definitely "Best 22" for mine. I am suggesting that we then need to find a true full forward if we are going to take the next step and win a flag.

 

[jackess]

Groundbreaking. Tom Lynch, Jeremy Cameron and Josh Kennedy are better than McStay. I never would have known.

We really should reconsider our "we do not want an AA key forward" stance.

 

[Strato]

I think you make a great point Johnny Bananas. Lets look at the two Grand Finalists last season and I'll throw in Josh Kennedy's 2018 Stats when West Coast won the Premiership.

At Richmond, Tom Lynch kicked 63 goals and only had 2 games where he didn't kick a goal.
At GWS, Jeremy Cameron kicked 76 goals and only had 2 games where he didn't kick a goal.
At Brisbane Daniel McStay kicked 21 goals and had 11 games where he didn't kick a goal.
At West Coast Josh Kennedy (in an injury interrupted year) kicked 43 goals and scored in every game he played in 2018.

Of course the comment that I hear most often when discussing Daniel McStay's performance as Full Forward is that he is playing a "role" and his success is not measured by goal kicking. That "role" appears to be to make a contest, bring the ball to ground and to apply offensive pressure on opponents inside 50. My point is that both Tom Lynch and Jeremy Cameron perform the same "role" as Dan McStay while also kicking goals. It appears that those who wish to defend McStay's selection at Full Forward are happy to take the Full Forward's key role, to kick goals, out of his job description for some reason.

Let's think about the idea that McStay's "role" is to make a contest and bring other players into the game. It is often implied by those who support McStay's selection at Full Forward that he has somehow contributed to our overall team scoring in an indirect way through his work in the forward line. Once again, lets do a straight comparison for last season looking at Goal Assists in 2019.

At Richmond, Tom Lynch had 16 goal assists
At GWS, Jeremy Cameron had 12 goal assists
At Brisbane Daniel McStay had 9 goal assists
At West Coast Josh Kennedy had 4 goal assists in 2018 in a year where he played 14 games.

The idea that in the "Modern Game" you don't need a traditional Full Forward who kicks goals doesn't ring true when we look at the teams who are making Grand Finals or winning Premierships.

None of this is a criticism of Dan McStay as a person. His tackling stats are better than any of the players I have mentioned and he tries his guts out, week in and week out. My point is that he is being played out of position and should be a defender. He is definitely "Best 22" for mine. I am suggesting that we then need to find a true full forward if we are going to take the next step and win a flag.

Well done. Totally agree with everything you have mentioned.

 

[theteamtobeat]

Totally agree with 3KZ is Football points above. Problem is there's no one on the list who can play that role better then McStay can. We need to maybe go after Mihocek, Finlayson, Daniher or Ben Brown these trade period. I sorry, but we aren't going to win a premiership with McStay.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Totally agree with 3KZ is Football points above. Problem is there's no one on the list who can play that role better then McStay can. We need to maybe go after Mihocek, Finlayson, Daniher or Ben Brown these trade period. I sorry, but we aren't going to win a premiership with McStay.

Good post . My response would be that we don’t really know that there’s nobody on our list who could play the full forward role better than McStay if we don’t actually try someone else.

 

[jackess]

Totally agree with 3KZ is Football points above. Problem is there's no one on the list who can play that role better then McStay can. We need to maybe go after Mihocek, Finlayson, Daniher or Ben Brown these trade period. I sorry, but we aren't going to win a premiership with McStay.

Good thing the season will be called off. Don’t have to waste our timetrying to win a premiership. Can focus on recruiting one of the half a dozen key forwards that are required to win a premiership.

If Richmond had McStay instead of Lynch last year they wouldn't have won the premiership?

 

[M Malice]

It looks like being a moot point now with the very real likely hood of a cancelled or severely compromised season but we could definitely win a premiership with our current squad including Dan McStay in the first 22. We were less than a goal off a preliminary final in 2019 and with natural improvement of our younger to mid age players the window is definitely open now IMO.

 

[Fagenslions36]

Imagine Mcstay kicking 30 m out directly infront to win a flag . 100 % he misses .

 

[Fagenslions36]

Apart from clunking a mark every now and then and looking like Tarzan he is a very limited footballer .

 

[lionraven]

Good thing the season will be called off. Don’t have to waste our timetrying to win a premiership. Can focus on recruiting one of the half a dozen key forwards that are required to win a premiership.

If Richmond had McStay instead of Lynch last year they wouldn't have won the premiership?

Remember how in 2017 Richmond got absolutely bodied with their single KPF Reiwoldt and fleet of tall midfielders playing small forward roles. They just couldnt handle the traditional firepower of Tex Walker and Jenkins. Similar to how in 2016 the Dogs faltered with their single tall forward vs the sheer power of Buddy and Tippet. We all know that there is only one way to skin a cat and McSpray is just no good as a fur salesman.

 

[bungalow_bill]

It looks like being a moot point now with the very real likely hood of a cancelled or severely compromised season but we could definitely win a premiership with our current squad including Dan McStay in the first 22. We were less than a goal off a preliminary final in 2019 and with natural improvement of our younger to mid age players the window is definitely open now IMO.

We definitely can McStay was a key cog in the highest scoring team of 2019. Now that we've moved on most of the chaff what remains is a potential premiership team. Hopefully we can realise that potential. Anyone who thinks you need two key forwards to win a flag is living in the 90's. Cats won most of theirs with Cam Mooney!

 

[jackess]

We definitely can McStay was a key cog in the highest scoring team of 2019. Now that we've moved on most of the chaff what remains is a potential premiership team. Hopefully we can realise that potential. Anyone who thinks you need two key forwards to win a flag is living in the 90's. Cats won most of theirs with Cam Mooney!

Plus McStay isn't our only key forward